Do we start pct too early?

[bigsiv]

I think you detailed take and opinion on this would be very appreciated Jimmy!

Agreed jimmy let's have it!

[MickeyKnox]

Just gonna add why I started this thread and it was because after my last test E at 600mgs a week 2 weeks into pct I knew (guessed not bloodwork) I had test in my body still. My libidi was high, mood was great, lifts still great etc
Then a couple if days later I could tell I wasn't right, mood and libido down etc

My conclusion is my pct started too early, I believe, depending on esters and amounts, the period we wait before going into pct should be changed depending on cycle.

You guys are very intelligent therefore I believe this 'debate' has merit whether you agree or not.

Again Mickey Knox not trying to start anything but you were very abrupt and definite until Atomini got involved then you changed your tune a little, not really like you to not be open minded?

Just noticed your last comment in this post.

I have developed a great deal of respect for Atomini and his theories and opinions. So when he presents his opinion, it's most often accompanied by an enormous amount of information that requires pause and reflection, certainly by me. And although his ideas about exponential serum levels are intriguing, they are certainly not definite - considerably more information is needed to even fully understand his point of view, let alone formulate any firm conclusion.

So this is why i asked for clarification and additional information so that i may read and formulate my own opinions based upon his hypothesis. This is not "changing your tune", this is being responsible enough to wait for additional data to fully understand an alternate idea. MY opinions are simply that. And i stand behind them 100% until otherwise convinced.

But im pretty sure this 21 year old still wet behind the ears kid BBJT200 is not an ADVANCED user, nor does he have the AAS experience to back up his claims of PCT experience. What a joke.

This is an excellent thread.
I have wanted to post so many times but then I just kept reading and decided to STFU.
Seriously great thread guys. Im not gonna add anything re scientific debate or anything else (progress on my part) but I will say this:
I'd damn sure rather start my pct too early, than too late. Also a good habit i got into especially when running 19 nors was extending my pct 2 weeks of just nolva at 20mgs/day for those last 2 weeks. So a 6 week total pct-last 2 just nolva. Eh for whatever its worth.

Im just waiting for this tool to respond.

[MickeyKnox]

Agreed jimmy let's have it!

I think you detailed take and opinion on this would be very appreciated Jimmy!

I would hold off until the kid responds. I know where youre going with this Jimmy.

[bigsiv]

Just noticed your last comment in this post.

I have developed a great deal of respect for Atomini and his theories and opinions. So when he presents his opinion, it's most often accompanied by an enormous amount of information that requires pause and reflection, certainly by me. And although his ideas about exponential serum levels are intriguing, they are certainly not definite - considerably more information is needed to even fully understand his point of view, let alone formulate any firm conclusion.

So this is why i asked for clarification and additional information so that i may read and formulate my own opinions based upon his hypothesis. This is not "changing your tune", this is being responsible enough to wait for additional data to fully understand an alternate idea. MY opinions are simply that. And i stand behind them 100% until otherwise convinced.

But im pretty sure this 21 year old still wet behind the ears kid BBJT200 is not an ADVANCED user, nor does he have the AAS experience to back up his claims of PCT experience. What a joke.

Im just waiting for this tool to respond.

No offence intended on that comment Mickey it's obvious why you would take note of Atomini

[Tron3219]

This is an excellent thread.
I have wanted to post so many times but then I just kept reading and decided to STFU.
Seriously great thread guys. Im not gonna add anything re scientific debate or anything else (progress on my part) but I will say this:
I'd damn sure rather start my pct too early, than too late. Also a good habit i got into especially when running 19 nors was extending my pct 2 weeks of just nolva at 20mgs/day for those last 2 weeks. So a 6 week total pct-last 2 just nolva. Eh for whatever its worth.

I'm curious, why only on 19nors?

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[magic32]

I only skimmed this thread, but the posts took some very unnecessarily angry turns. It's just a question.

The answer is a definitive "yes", we (aas users) do start pct prematurely, directly after the first half-life. There are several solid half-lives left after the first, with 7th typically being considered the terminal (or last effective) half-life.

Does this practice hinder the cycle?

• Yes, in the sense that SERMs hinder overall development.
• No, in the sense that this is the final dose so by the time the SERM would even begin to hinder aas efficacy the cycle will be over.

Is it better to wait until a few half-lives have expired to begin pct?
'Better' is a relative term here so...

• Yes with regard to getting the absolute most out of your cycle
• No, with regard to the fact that even though they reach maximum plasma elevations rapidly (like say Suspension or Prop), SERMs do take time to cumulatively build within the bloodstream to levels that promote full impact thereby preserving your hard earned muscle, while preventing elevated estrogen side effects including the risk of gyno due to the test:estro ratio imbalance.

In the final analysis, whether you begin after the first half-life or wait until a few expire, neither method is wrong and both have pros and cons. Personally, I err on the side caution beginning after the first, but some guys actually start the next day regardless of ester length or half-life.

Potato, pototo.

[bigsiv]

Thanx for the input magic32 keep them coming

[imouttie24]

What if your taking test e ..test c and test p? Since e is the longest would I still start pct t weeks after last dose or should I start when test p is failing off and start it in 5 or 8 days I Believe?

[bigsiv]

What if your taking test e ..test c and test p? Since e is the longest would I still start pct t weeks after last dose or should I start when test p is failing off and start it in 5 or 8 days I Believe?

No offence bud but I think that's a question for another thread. The answer would depend on the dosing procedure of the prop I.e kick start or a finisher

[MickeyKnox]

What if your taking test e ..test c and test p? Since e is the longest would I still start pct t weeks after last dose or should I start when test p is failing off and start it in 5 or 8 days I Believe?

Cypionate is the longest, not Enanthate .

*Esters and Half Life of Steroids - Oral and Depot*

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...*#.UTj3TDcUX0E

[BBJT200]

First of all, Im not sure i understand where you're coming from here. Your recent comment, "your so called standard procedures." clearly shows disdain for me for some reason. For the record, these protocols have been around a lot longer than you and i have. I agree with them and support them. Are you angry that i choose to support them based on personal experience and empirical data. Are you holding me responsible because you dont agree? Are you kidding me? You sound like you have an axe to grind.

There's absolute nothing wrong with debating anything on here. But it seems to me that you're only intention is to argue for the sake of arguing. If your intentions are as true and aligned as you propose, then please provide something we can read to support your statements. Otherwise, youre not contributing, youre simply a guy on TRT who doers not include PCT and wants to argue for the sake of arguing with empty statements. I'm more than happy to listen (read) what you have to say provided you include at least one article, one personal experience, one piece of data, so that we all may have a read and formulate opinions based upon solid evidence. Is this too much ask?

Incidentally, do you have any independent thoughts of your own backed by experience, or empirical data, and clinical studies? Or do you plan on simply arguing with me and making empty claims for the rest of this "debate"?

Yeah, you're right. I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Mickey, you're just a bully with an attitude problem.
I don't think you'll listen...but here goes

Examples:

Other users have mentioned that they felt they still had test in their system well into their PCT. Even in this thread.

My buddy who did his first cycle with me had the same experience; week 3 after his last injection @ 500mg/week(One week into starting PCT) is when he felt the typical PCT symptoms associated with lack of exogenous testosterone and natural testosterone

Data tables showing the half-life of enanthate ester is anywhere from 5-14 days. Sure, you could estimate it at 5. You could estimate it at 7.
The point is, it's going to be different for everyone. The 'established protocol' is outdated and too simplistic. The answer to the op's question: Yes, the majority of us are starting pct too soon.

People need to be informed that "pct at day 14 is the standard, but does not fit everyone. Here's what to look for, and how you can learn and adjust to what is right for your body"
If the half-life of test E actually is 5 days, then day 15 is when pct should start at the earliest. Depending on cycle length, you have a cumulative effect of steadily rising levels of androgens in the blood. PCT needs to be tuned for dosage, length of cycle, and the user's own response to pct based on experience.

@500mg
If it's 7 days, there should be a minimum of 21 days to start PCT.
If it's 9 days, there should be a minimum of 28 days to start PCT.

SO:
Either wait to start PCT a bit longer, or extend your dosage of nolva/clomid out a few extra weeks.
For beginner cycles, we should be encouraging people to do a protocol such as this:

500mg test E, 12 weeks.
Upon completion of the cycle, continue your AI dose.
When you feel the symptoms of low T, mark that spot on the calendar and adjust future cycles' pct start dates accordingly. Start PCT a few days prior to hitting those low-t symptoms.
This would be a good way to get a baseline for each individual's half-life of a specific ester, and would help the user learn by feel.

[MickeyKnox]

Yeah, you're right. I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Mickey, you're just a bully with an attitude problem.
I don't think you'll listen...but here goes Get real. Dont even go down that road. You started this and i will finish it, i promise you that son.

Examples:

Other users have mentioned that they felt they still had test in their system well into their PCT. Even in this thread. Show me where i said that you need to be on empty, like your head is right now? Where? Show me? Put up a link? I KNOW you will have exogenous amounts of Test in your system when PCT begins, if you follow the PCT protocols that I AGREE with.

My buddy who did his first cycle with me had the same experience; week 3 after his last injection @ 500mg/week(One week into starting PCT) is when he felt the typical PCT symptoms associated with lack of exogenous testosterone and natural testosterone "My buddy" LOL My "buddy"?? Is this what youre bringing to the table? What your "buddy" said?? Are you joking?? Are you relying on what your "buddy" did to support your implied claims of my apparent irresponsible advice? who did his first cycle with me had the same experience; week 3 after his last injection @ 500mg/week(One week into starting PCT) is when he felt the typical PCT symptoms associated with lack of exogenous testosterone and natural testosterone

Data tables showing the half-life of enanthate ester is anywhere from 5-14 days. Sure, you could estimate it at 5. You could estimate it at 7.
The point is, it's going to be different for everyone. No shit Sherlock. EVERY drug out there is different for everyone! The 'established protocol' is outdated and too simplistic. Really? The support this ****ing claim or shut your ****ing mouth. Why is that so difficult for you to accept? You call me a bully but yet you are unable to support your claims! Do you have ANYTHING...ANYTHING AT ALL beside your "buddy" to support ANY of your claims? DO YOU!? No you don't. Why? because youre nothing but a 21 years old punk who has ZERO knowledge and experience about recovery plans. At 21 years old, please share with this Board your world wide experience on PCT. The answer to the op's question: Yes, the majority of us are starting pct too soon. Youre nothing but a parrot. You read something somewhere and now you're touting it to be your own thoughts and idea. **** you if you think youre going to paint me like an irresponsible person. I have more compassion for people and their health than you could possibly imagine. And my contributions and reputation stand alone.

People need to be informed that "pct at day 14 is the standard, but does not fit everyone. Here's what to look for, and how you can learn and adjust to what is right for your body" Perhaps you should write a letter to Bayer and tell them to write that on their aspirin profiles as well. Of course it doesn't fit EVERYONE. BUT..it DOES fit most people who use their product for what it is intended for...the AVERAGE HEADACHE....like the one your giving me. Bayer aspirin is NOT for excruciating migraines. Do i REALLY need to explain all this to you? The answer is, YES I DO because youre only 21 years old with NO REAL LIFE AAS experiences to relay on. You're relying on your "buddy".
If the half-life of test E actually is 5 days, then day 15 is when pct should start at the earliest. Depending on cycle length, you have a cumulative effect of steadily rising levels of androgens in the blood. PCT needs to be tuned for dosage, length of cycle, and the user's own response to pct based on experience.

@500mg
If it's 7 days, there should be a minimum of 21 days to start PCT.
If it's 9 days, there should be a minimum of 28 days to start PCT.

SO:
Either wait to start PCT a bit longer, or extend your dosage of nolva/clomid out a few extra weeks.
For beginner cycles, we should be encouraging people to do a protocol such as this:

500mg test E, 12 weeks.
Upon completion of the cycle, continue your AI dose.
When you feel the symptoms of low T, mark that spot on the calendar and adjust future cycles' pct start dates accordingly. Start PCT a few days prior to hitting those low-t symptoms.
This would be a good way to get a baseline for each individual's half-life of a specific ester, and would help the user learn by feel.

Im done with you. Next time you have a bone to pick or an axe to grind, choose something you actually have at least some experience with, like Xbox.

Get a life.

[BBJT200]

Im done with you. Next time you have a bone to pick or an axe to grind, choose something you actually have at least some experience with, like Xbox.

Get a life.

You're acting like a child, while calling me one. Go figure.
You're the one looking for a fight, i'm looking to discuss things. Clearly you aren't capable of discussion, only one-sided argument.
Do you see how hostile your remarks are? Your entire argument is based around my age. You have no idea what I have cycled, what I haven't cycled, etc. I merely have no reason to personally use PCT.

We're here to help people. So, in order to more effectively help people, we should include more information with our standard protocols. Better educated users will be able to make personal adjustments to their cycles and be more successful. I don't see how that is such an issue, Mickey. Just because something has been preached for a long period of time does not make it absolutely correct. This is how science moves forward-- accepting and investigating new concepts.

I do have quite a bit of real-life AAS experience to relay on. You automatically assume I'm only relying on my buddy.

Maybe you should up your AI dosage. Calm the f*** down

[MickeyKnox]

You're acting like a child, while calling me one. Go figure.
You're the one looking for a fight, i'm looking to discuss things. Clearly you aren't capable of discussion, only one-sided argument.
Do you see how hostile your remarks are? Your entire argument is based around my age. You have no idea what I have cycled, what I haven't cycled, etc. I merely have no reason to personally use PCT. My entire argument is based upon the fact that came in here attempting to disparage me. But when i called called you out on your age and inexperience, you cried foul.

We're here to help people. So, in order to more effectively help people, we should include more information with our standard protocols. Better educated users will be able to make personal adjustments to their cycles and be more successful. I don't see how that is such an issue, Mickey. Just because something has been preached for a long period of time does not make it absolutely correct. This is how science moves forward-- accepting and investigating new concepts.

I do have quite a bit of real-life AAS experience to relay on. WHAT IS IT????? What is YOUR experience????? Tell us. You automatically assume I'm only relying on my buddy.

Maybe you should up your AI dosage. Calm the f*** down

You're a punk with no answers and no argument. You tried to discredit me and you failed miserably because of your lack of experience and knowledge gained form real life experiences. You're nothing but a parrot and have no ideas of your own. So dont go reaching for Kleenex now. Take you lumps and lessons and leave quietly. Stop making a fuss.

[Lunk1]

Well...this is fun

[MickeyKnox]

Well...this is fun

Im front loading Aspirin. When should i begin PCT?

[Lunk1]

Im front loading Aspirin. When should i begin PCT?

How many Kilos are you taking a week ?

[MickeyKnox]

How many Kilos are you taking a week ?

Im only 18, does that count?

[BBJT200]

You're a punk with no answers and no argument. You tried to discredit me and you failed miserably because of your lack of experience and knowledge gained form real life experiences. You're nothing but a parrot and have no ideas of your own. So dont go reaching for Kleenex now. Take you lumps and lessons and leave quietly. Stop making a fuss.

You actually lack a real argument. The only thing you've pointed to is my age. That has zero relevance to the half-life of hormones in the bloodstream. Or am I wrong?

I've run two cycles of test E, a cycle of test/var, a cycle of test/mast/tren /var. Fooled around with turinabol during one of my test E cycles. Been using insulin a little bit to get a feel for it.

Do you understand that your numbers are potentially off for the majority of users, thus making pct start time over a week off from where it should be?
You've definitely earned your title, most condescending.

I will reiterate:
Standard pct protocol is not right for everyone. Based on differences in metabolism and other factors, half lives are different for everyone.
The range for test E is 5-14 days. Most sources reference a 5-9 day half life.
Going with 5 days, and stating this as the absolute standard protocol is wrong as you are picking the minimum value and claiming it is what everyone should do.

If a user assumes 7 days instead, they can watch for the symptoms of low-T during their 3week wait-period and adjust pct start dates accordingly if need be.
Otherwise, we are starting too soon and essentially reducing the efficacy of our pct regimen unless we extend the length of pct.

[MickeyKnox]

You actually lack a real argument. The only thing you've pointed to is my age. That has zero relevance to the half-life of hormones in the bloodstream. Or am I wrong?

I've run two cycles of test E, a cycle of test/var, a cycle of test/mast/tren /var. Fooled around with turinabol during one of my test E cycles. Been using insulin a little bit to get a feel for it.

Do you understand that your numbers are potentially off for the majority of users, thus making pct start time over a week off from where it should be?
You've definitely earned your title, most condescending.

I will reiterate:
Standard pct protocol is not right for everyone. Based on differences in metabolism and other factors, half lives are different for everyone.
The range for test E is 5-14 days. Most sources reference a 5-9 day half life.
Going with 5 days, and stating this as the absolute standard protocol is wrong as you are picking the minimum value and claiming it is what everyone should do.

If a user assumes 7 days instead, they can watch for the symptoms of low-T during their 3week wait-period and adjust pct start dates accordingly if need be.
Otherwise, we are starting too soon and essentially reducing the efficacy of our pct regimen unless we extend the length of pct.

Yeah but....what did your buddy say?

[Lunk1]

What would the negetive effective of starting PCT when there is still exegenious test still in our system?

[MickeyKnox]

What would the negetive effective of starting PCT when there is still exegenious test still in our system?

I asked him that question on the first page...still no answer.

[BBJT200]

What would the negetive effective of starting PCT when there is still exegenious test still in our system?

I don't see a big negative effect of starting pct while there is still exogenous test in our systems.
However, running nolva/clod lmionger than necessary leads to more side effects from those drugs. If we start too soon, and end too early based on a cookie cutter protocol that doesnt quite fit our cycle, we potentially aren't in PCT long enough *and we wasted a bunch of clomid/nolva.

So, either pct should be extended on longer cycles, or delayed. I would vote for delayed, as using less drugs to achieve what we want is preferable in terms of health.

[largerthannormal]

What about taking into the consideration the time it takes for the SERMS to reach optimal serum levels? This could make up the entire difference of the 14-21 day debate??

even if we start early its not like were there on DAY 1?

ps these are questions not statements, only looking for advice ( i know micks got tons of knowledge on me so no debate here)

[Lunk1]

What about taking into the consideration the time it takes for the SERMS to reach optimal serum levels? This could make up the entire difference of the 14-21 day debate??

even if we start early its not like were there on DAY 1?

ps these are questions not statements, only looking for advice ( i know micks got tons of knowledge on me so no debate here)

This was my point in my first post in this thread...they really are crossing paths with one another. One heding up and one heading down...seems like the perfect idea????

[imouttie24]

Can the ones with a lot of experience help me with my thread? Its under should I take test and winstrol together?

[Jayo]

Completely new here, but just thought I'd chip in...

What I think Atomini means by the "build-up" effect is that if, for example we take Test Enanthate , and say it has a half life of 7 days (debatable I know), and dose it at 500mg/week. And if, for arguments sake, we inject only once per week, to make the numbers work easier.

After one week, that 500mg will have become 250mg. We then inject again, giving us 750mg. This 750mg then becomes 375mg, etc, etc.

This is simplified but would explain how it could build up during 8-12 weeks of a cycle and that it would then take a longer time for it to decay to a normal level of endogenous test.

[MickeyKnox]

@ 1gram/week. test e
7 days later---> 500mg still in your bloodstream
7 days later---> 250mg (typical start pct date...)
7 days later--->125mg
7 days later--->62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

If you start PCT at day 14, you're half way into your pct before you actually do anything useful.

500mg/week test E
7 days later----> 250mg
7 days later---> 125mg
7 days later---> 62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

PCT timing IS affected when your dosages are higher. It's simple math. Mickey apparently disagrees, so please post something to back your point.

Even at 500mg a week, you should be doing pct @ day 21 according to those numbers.

Being on TRT, I have zero reason to do PCT personally.

From various articles i've read, test E has a half life of anywhere from 5-12 days. now, that's quite a range...Where do you come up with 'for most users, it's 5 days?'
I do feel that I am contributing positively to this forum by arguing your so called standard procedures.
How the hell do you think anything in the world progresses? Debate.

" I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone"
You should include this little disclaimer when giving out advice. By making statements such as you did here,

:so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?
Absolutely.:

You lead the user to believe that there is only one possible answer. It's 14 days, end of story. Well buddy, it's not the only possibility.
If you're going to give advice on a subject that is different for everyone, don't make absolute statements like you consistently do. Try adding in some useful tips such as, you may need to start pct a little later due to the fact that your body may metabolize the hormone at a slower/faster rate than others. Try being less arrogant about what you "know," and more helpful to those who need it. That's what this board is here for, after all.

The point is, 5 days is cutting it very short. 7 days is in the middle of the range, @ 21 days for pct start time...I think you can see what I'm getting at.
This thread is about people starting pct too soon. Yes, people are starting PCT too soon. ESPECIALLY FOR LONG ESTERED, HIGH DOSAGE CYCLES.

Yeah, you're right. I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Mickey, you're just a bully with an attitude problem.
I don't think you'll listen...but here goes

Examples:

Other users have mentioned that they felt they still had test in their system well into their PCT. Even in this thread.

My buddy who did his first cycle with me had the same experience; week 3 after his last injection @ 500mg/week(One week into starting PCT) is when he felt the typical PCT symptoms associated with lack of exogenous testosterone and natural testosterone

Data tables showing the half-life of enanthate ester is anywhere from 5-14 days. Sure, you could estimate it at 5. You could estimate it at 7.
The point is, it's going to be different for everyone. The 'established protocol' is outdated and too simplistic. The answer to the op's question: Yes, the majority of us are starting pct too soon.

People need to be informed that "pct at day 14 is the standard, but does not fit everyone. Here's what to look for, and how you can learn and adjust to what is right for your body"
If the half-life of test E actually is 5 days, then day 15 is when pct should start at the earliest. Depending on cycle length, you have a cumulative effect of steadily rising levels of androgens in the blood. PCT needs to be tuned for dosage, length of cycle, and the user's own response to pct based on experience.

@500mg
If it's 7 days, there should be a minimum of 21 days to start PCT.
If it's 9 days, there should be a minimum of 28 days to start PCT.

SO:
Either wait to start PCT a bit longer, or extend your dosage of nolva/clomid out a few extra weeks.
For beginner cycles, we should be encouraging people to do a protocol such as this:

500mg test E, 12 weeks.
Upon completion of the cycle, continue your AI dose.
When you feel the symptoms of low T, mark that spot on the calendar and adjust future cycles' pct start dates accordingly. Start PCT a few days prior to hitting those low-t symptoms.
This would be a good way to get a baseline for each individual's half-life of a specific ester, and would help the user learn by feel.

But now....look below..lol

I don't see a big negative effect of starting pct while there is still exogenous test in our systems.
However, running nolva/clod lmionger than necessary leads to more side effects from those drugs. If we start too soon, and end too early based on a cookie cutter protocol that doesnt quite fit our cycle, we potentially aren't in PCT long enough *and we wasted a bunch of clomid/nolva.

So, either pct should be extended on longer cycles, or delayed. I would vote for delayed, as using less drugs to achieve what we want is preferable in terms of health.

What a hypocrite..lol

[jimmyinkedup]

What would the negetive effective of starting PCT when there is still exegenious test still in our system?

The only negative is losing a possible few days to week of pct at the end HOWEVER as Magic pointed out and I agree with better safe than sorry, All this "manage by how you feel" is rubbish and impractical as most dont know how to correlate feeling with actual test levels etc.(Maybe Kreskin can w/o blood work but most cant) Plus u feel like shit anyway due to hormonal fluctuations. If you are concerned simply add 2 weeks of nolva at end. Your better off starting early a few days than late a few - even a week imo. Its a whole protocol that includes your cycle/hcg /ai and serms that all work together to not only restart your t but protect you from deleterious effects of improper t/e ratios. Someone that touts masteron should realize that thats all masteron does, It adjusts the androgen/estrogen ratio decreasing the likelihood of gyno. It is in no way an ai of any kind.

[jimmyinkedup]

I don't see a big negative effect of starting pct while there is still exogenous test in our systems.
However, running nolva/clod lmionger than necessary leads to more side effects from those drugs. If we start too soon, and end too early based on a cookie cutter protocol that doesnt quite fit our cycle, we potentially aren't in PCT long enough *and we wasted a bunch of clomid/nolva.

So, either pct should be extended on longer cycles, or delayed. I would vote for delayed, as using less drugs to achieve what we want is preferable in terms of health.

Starting pct late has more health risks associated with it than starting it early i assure you.

[MickeyKnox]

Completely new here, but just thought I'd chip in...

What I think Atomini means by the "build-up" effect is that if, for example we take Test Enanthate , and say it has a half life of 7 days (debatable I know), and dose it at 500mg/week. And if, for arguments sake, we inject only once per week, to make the numbers work easier.

After one week, that 500mg will have become 250mg. We then inject again, giving us 750mg. This 750mg then becomes 375mg, etc, etc.

This is simplified but would explain how it could build up during 8-12 weeks of a cycle and that it would then take a longer time for it to decay to a normal level of endogenous test.

Thanks Jayo..we know that. Most of us understand what exponential means. Were waiting for the formula that outlines this EXACTLY.

Welcome to the Forums.

[Lunk1]

Between Magic and Jimmy...not sure who's posts I enjoy reading more. Thanks Jimmy for furthering my point.

There is already so much hormone fluctuation occuring that the last thing I want is to hot bottom and stay there till my SERMs do their thing

[largerthannormal]

This was my point in my first post in this thread...they really are crossing paths with one another. One heding up and one heading down...seems like the perfect idea????

sorry lunk , missed it, i see it now

[Lunk1]

sorry lunk , missed it, i see it now

Wasnt bitchin..just stating I agree

[MickeyKnox]

The only negative is losing a possible few days to week of pct at the end HOWEVER as Magic pointed out and I agree with better safe than sorry, All this "manage by how you feel" is rubbish and impractical as most dont know how to correlate feeling with actual test levels etc.(Maybe Kreskin can w/o blood work but most cant) Plus u feel like shit anyway due to hormonal fluctuations. If you are concerned simply add 2 weeks of nolva at end. Your better off starting early a few days than late a few - even a week imo. Its a whole protocol that includes your cycle/hcg/ai and serms that all work together to not only restart your t but protect you from deleterious effects of improper t/e ratios. Someone that touts masteron should realize that thats all masteron does, It adjusts the androgen/estrogen ratio decreasing the likelihood of gyno. It is in no way an ai of any kind.

Starting pct late has more health risks associated with it than starting it early i assure you.

I totally agree with Magic as well. In fact beginning early presents no health risk or serious impact on gains. Like Jimmy suggested, your cycle is a synergistic and collective behavior of all compounds and chems combined to produce positive results.

If anyone understands the behavior of Clomid/Nolva and SERM's in general, you would understand that beginning your recovery plan sooner is not detrimental to your health or cycle. This isn't that difficult.

[MickeyKnox]

For the readers.

I just realize that the conversation between BBJT200 and I was not the best choice, and certainly doesn't not shed a positive light on either one of us. I took offense to a couple of BJ's remarks and felt my credibility being threatened, and so I rushed the net. But as we all know, cooler heads always prevail.

So for that i apologize. A lesson learned for me as well.

[johnnymctrance]

I believe this equation can be used.......

The online Half Life Calculator is used to calculate the half-life in exponential decay.
Definition

Half-life is the period of time it takes for a substance undergoing decay to decrease by half. It is usually used to describe quantities undergoing exponential decay (for example radioactive decay) where the half-life is constant over the whole life of the decay, and is a characteristic unit (a natural unit of scale) for the exponential decay equation. However, a half-life can also be defined for non-exponential decay processes, although in these cases the half-life varies throughout the decay process.

The calculation of half-life used in this tool is based on the exponential decay equation.
Half-life Calculation Formula in Exponential Decay

An exponential decay process can be described by the following formula:

Exponential Decay Formula

N(t) = N@0 (1/2)^t/ t1/2

where:
N(t) = the quantity that still remains and has not yet decayed after a time t
N0 = the initial quantity of the substance that will decay
t1/2 = the half-life of the decaying quantity

[MickeyKnox]

I believe this equation can be used.......

The online Half Life Calculator is used to calculate the half-life in exponential decay.
Definition

Half-life is the period of time it takes for a substance undergoing decay to decrease by half. It is usually used to describe quantities undergoing exponential decay (for example radioactive decay) where the half-life is constant over the whole life of the decay, and is a characteristic unit (a natural unit of scale) for the exponential decay equation. However, a half-life can also be defined for non-exponential decay processes, although in these cases the half-life varies throughout the decay process.

The calculation of half-life used in this tool is based on the exponential decay equation.
Half-life Calculation Formula in Exponential Decay

An exponential decay process can be described by the following formula:

Exponential Decay Formula

N(t) = N@0 (1/2)^t/ t1/2

where:
N(t) = the quantity that still remains and has not yet decayed after a time t
N0 = the initial quantity of the substance that will decay
t1/2 = the half-life of the decaying quantity

This is interesting. Can we see the link for this so we may read it in its entirety?

[johnnymctrance]

This is interesting. Can we see the link for this so we may read it in its entirety?

No problem http://www.miniwebtool.com/half-life-calculator/

[jimmyinkedup]

The metabolism of testosterone is mediated by cyp enzymes in the cyp450 family (specifically 3a4 and 2a3 IIRC) Because levels of these enzymes vary individual to individual (levels are often age, gender,and ethnicity based as well) there is no "formula" that can be accurate at determining a set half life of testosterone for everyone.