Do we start pct too early?

[bigsiv]

Alright guys this is for educational purposes, I have been wondering for a while if the standard pct protocol was incorrect. For example mickey knox's Ester and half lives thread he uses test C and states that the half life is 12 days therefore if I was on 1000mgs a week, there would still be 125mgs after 36 days!

[bigsiv]

Sorry haven't finished........so after 36 days with still above baseline test we still should wait at least a week for our test levels to go below baseline THEN start pct.

My question is Should the start of pct depend on the half life and the amount we are using?

[TFf]

My guess would be yes if your are dosing one gram per week.. If you are at 500mg using that half life at 36 days you would be at 62.5 ... Hope full Mickey will be around soon

[bigsiv]

My guess would be yes if your are dosing one gram per week.. If you are at 500mg using that half life at 36 days you would be at 62.5 ... Hope full Mickey will be around soon

Agreed mickey can shed some better light on the subject. Yeah 62.5mgs of test is about baseline so that's when pct should start. This is just a guess on my part I'm not as clued up as the other guys

[johnnymctrance]

Very interesting point, I am looking forward to see what the experts say

[MickeyKnox]

Alright guys this is for educational purposes, I have been wondering for a while if the standard pct protocol was incorrect. For example mickey knox's Ester and half lives thread he uses test C and states that the half life is 12 days therefore if I was on 1000mgs a week, there would still be 125mgs after 36 days!

That's incorrect! Its states "7-9 days" and that's pushing it a bit only because the data i have found is confusing. I felt it was safe splitting the difference. But after further research I meant to return to the thread and adjust that to 5-7 days. But i will wait until this discussion is over to amend it.

[johnnymctrance]

That's incorrect! Its states "7-9 days" and that's pushing it a bit only because the data i have found is confusing. I felt it was safe splitting the difference. But after further research I meant to return to the thread and adjust that to 5-7 days. But i will wait until this discussion is over to amend it.

so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?

[MickeyKnox]

so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?

Absolutely.

[OdinsOtherSon]

And cyp 18 days??

[johnnymctrance]

Cool... im on pct now and have such a high libido since starting....

[MickeyKnox]

And cyp 18 days??

100%.

[BBJT200]

@ 1gram/week. test e
7 days later---> 500mg still in your bloodstream
7 days later---> 250mg (typical start pct date...)
7 days later--->125mg
7 days later--->62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

If you start PCT at day 14, you're half way into your pct before you actually do anything useful.

500mg/week test E
7 days later----> 250mg
7 days later---> 125mg
7 days later---> 62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

PCT timing IS affected when your dosages are higher. It's simple math. Mickey apparently disagrees, so please post something to back your point.

[OdinsOtherSon]

@ 1gram/week. test e
7 days later---> 500mg still in your bloodstream
7 days later---> 250mg (typical start pct date...)
7 days later--->125mg
7 days later--->62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

If you start PCT at day 14, you're half way into your pct before you actually do anything useful.

500mg/week test E
7 days later----> 250mg
7 days later---> 125mg
7 days later---> 62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

PCT timing IS affected when your dosages are higher. It's simple math. Mickey apparently disagrees, so please post something to back your point.

Not sure, but I think we're all assuming the standard "beginner" dose of 500mg per week. But I do agree that timing would be affected by dosage.

[BBJT200]

Not sure, but I think we're all assuming the standard "beginner" dose of 500mg per week. But I do agree that timing would be affected by dosage.

Even at 500mg a week, you should be doing pct @ day 21 according to those numbers.

[MickeyKnox]

@ 1gram/week. test e
7 days later---> 500mg still in your bloodstream
7 days later---> 250mg (typical start pct date...)
7 days later--->125mg
7 days later--->62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

If you start PCT at day 14, you're half way into your pct before you actually do anything useful.

500mg/week test E
7 days later----> 250mg
7 days later---> 125mg
7 days later---> 62.5mg (this is when you should start pct)

PCT timing IS affected when your dosages are higher. It's simple math. Mickey apparently disagrees, so please post something to back your point.

Test E half life is closer to 5 days for most people. But as you are aware, everyone is different. And if you do your own research you'll see data suggesting between 5-7days. Also, the amount of exogenous testosterone plays a key role as well. If a user runs 2 grams of test per wk, then i agree that the starting time will vary considerably. But if feel that you're contributing to this forum by arguing standard protocols, i can assure you youre not. Anyone can do that. These are simply safe starting points for the recreational user. I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone, particularly for advanced users.

Are you an advanced user? If you are, you would know from experience what you require on cycle to properly and safely build muscle for you and how to properly run a PCT according to YOUR experience and amounts of oils/AAS.

So what is your point? Other than pointing out the obvious.

BTW,

500mg Test E

5 days later = 250
5 days later = 125
5 days later = 62.50 Close enough for you smart guy? I'll stick to 14 days - its been working forever.

[Lunk1]

This may be why many of us recommend a longer more aggresive PCT for those who are using heavy doses. I can't honestly remember the last time that someone has asked a QA abot running a gram or more of anything. I have often rec. adding a week or so on to the PCT for heavy users. I think at the end of the day your going to have one drug building up and another tapering down.

[Atomini]

Without reading all of the previous posts, yes I do believe the average person is starting PCT far too soon.

People also do not realize there is a cumulative effect (a 'build-up' of sorts) of the dose with every injection. I personally start all of my PCTs about 6 or 7 days after I end my short ester cycles (such as Testosterone Propionate and Trenbolone Acetate), for example. I see far too many people starting PCT 3 or 4 days after stopping short-estered cycles. That's way too soon. There is most definitely still at least physiological levels of exogenous androgens floating around at that time. It's even worse with long estered AAS.

[Tron3219]

And isn't the point of pct to start ur hpta. Clomid acts as gnrh on the pituitary and nolva acts as lh and fsh on the testes. So it is starting reatarting ur testes and pituitary to produce natural test even if ur body is saying hey there's too much androgens floating around. The only think that's left out of the loop is the hypothalamus. Which I think would b the most responsive of the three. So the two glands that have been shut down are starting to work regardless of the amount of test in the body because an "analog" (used loosely) is being applied to the pituitary and testes. It's just like hcg . So when the exogenous test is is at baseline the balls and pituitary are functioning and just waiting on the hypothalamus to say ok boys now we can kick in the natty test and by then were half wy through pct, couple more weeks of the "analogs" and were all functioning close to full potential. Now I may b wrong, but that's my thought on it.

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[Atomini]

Tron, your understanding of Nolvadex is flawed. Nolvadex does not act as LH and FSH on the testes. It acts on the pituitary to signal the release of LH and FSH (far better than Clomid does might I add). Clomid and Nolvadex are similar compounds belonging to the same family.

[Tron3219]

Tron, your understanding of Nolvadex is flawed. Nolvadex does not act as LH and FSH on the testes. It acts on the pituitary to signal the release of LH and FSH (far better than Clomid does might I add). Clomid and Nolvadex are similar compounds belonging to the same family.

From what I read, and it was a long whole ago, so I may b mis-remembering lol but clomid works as gnrh right? And in the feedback loop. Gnrh (from the hypothalamus) is the signal on the pituitary to release lh and fsh.......and tsh? Now if nolva acts on the pituitary to secrete lh and fsh (similar to how gnrh acts), why both? I could have swore I read nolva acts as lh and fsh. But like I said, long time ago and memory may not b serving correctly. Maybe I should continue use of noopept! :P

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[MickeyKnox]

Without reading all of the previous posts, yes I do believe the average person is starting PCT far too soon.

People also do not realize there is a cumulative effect (a 'build-up' of sorts) of the dose with every injection. I personally start all of my PCTs about 6 or 7 days after I end my short ester cycles (such as Testosterone Propionate and Trenbolone Acetate), for example. I see far too many people starting PCT 3 or 4 days after stopping short-estered cycles. That's way too soon. There is most definitely still at least physiological levels of exogenous androgens floating around at that time. It's even worse with long estered AAS.

I always enjoy reading your theories, even if i dont always agree. lol. But i like the fact that you always seem to provoke my own thoughts.

And isn't the point of pct to start ur hpta. Clomid acts as gnrh on the pituitary and nolva acts as lh and fsh on the testes. So it is starting reatarting ur testes and pituitary to produce natural test even if ur body is saying hey there's too much androgens floating around. The only think that's left out of the loop is the hypothalamus. Which I think would b the most responsive of the three. So the two glands that have been shut down are starting to work regardless of the amount of test in the body because an "analog" (used loosely) is being applied to the pituitary and testes. It's just like hcg. So when the exogenous test is is at baseline the balls and pituitary are functioning and just waiting on the hypothalamus to say ok boys now we can kick in the natty test and by then were half wy through pct, couple more weeks of the "analogs" and were all functioning close to full potential. Now I may b wrong, but that's my thought on it.

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

This is how i interpret it as well, when recovery has begun with SERM's (Clomid/Nolva).

Let me put these questions to the masses;

1. At what exact point of measure of Endogenous testosterone does the HPTA restart with/without the aid of PCT?

3. At what exact amount of Exogenous testosterone does the HPTA restart with/without the aid of PCT?

When you have the answers to those questions, let me know - i'll be more than happy to include them in my notes. (this isn't directed at anyone in particular)

[Atomini]

From what I read, and it was a long whole ago, so I may b mis-remembering lol but clomid works as gnrh right? And in the feedback loop. Gnrh (from the hypothalamus) is the signal on the pituitary to release lh and fsh.......and tsh? Now if nolva acts on the pituitary to secrete lh and fsh (similar to how gnrh acts), why both? I could have swore I read nolva acts as lh and fsh. But like I said, long time ago and memory may not b serving correctly. Maybe I should continue use of noopept! :P

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

Neither Clomid nor Nolvadex work as GnRH at the pituitary gland. They stimulate LH and FSH release from the pituitary by other means. They do so through Estrogen antagonism. As you may or may not already know, Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators), which means they act as Estrogen antagonists in some tissues (breast tissue) and as Estrogen agonists in other tissues (such as the liver). One of the other areas they work as Estrogen antagonists is at the pituitary gland, where they work to block the ability for Estrogen to bind to receptors at the hypothalamus and pituitary glands. Estrogen serves as one of the hormones that the hypothalamust will monitor through receptors, and if too much of it is detected, the hypothalamus will reduce its signals to output LH and FSH. If too little of Estrogen is detected, it will do the opposite and signal increases in LH and FSH so as to increase Testosterone levels so as to restore Estrogen balance via aromatization.

In layman terms, Nolvadex and Clomid basically trick the hypothalamus and pituitary into thinking that there is insufficient Estrogen in the body (because they act as Estrogen antagonists at the receptor sites there), and so the HPTA basically goes "holy shit, we need to restore Estrogen levels by increasing output of Testosterone so a bit of it can get aromatized, lets start cranking out the LH and FSH!".

That's it. Nolvadex is not an LH/FSH analogue... it cannot possibly work like one, it isn't even a protein! HCG is considered an analogue of LH, because it contains a subunit in its quaternary protein structure that is 100% identical to LH, so it can interact with LH receptors at the Leydig cells of the testes. Nolvadex never has done this, does not do this, and can never possibly do this.

Clomid and Nolvadex = Estrogen antagonists at the hypothalamus.
HCG = LH mimetic at the Leydig cells of the testes

Hope that clears things up for you.

I always enjoy reading your theories, even if i dont always agree. lol. But i like the fact that you always seem to provoke my own thoughts.

Well, I should expand upon the idea of this 'build-up' I mentioned, but i'm too busy at the moment. It just involves math.... if you know advanced functions and calculus, you just take the formula for half-lives and/or exponential decay, plug the numbers in in terms of dose and days, and watch how many mg of a substance you'll have left over in your system after a number of weeks. Remember that the half-life only indicates how long it takes for a substance to reduce to half the original dose you took. Most dosing protocols call for a re-dose long before that half-life is up so as to maintain steady and stable peak optimal blood plasma levels. Essentially, you're piling dose on top of dose on top of dose.

[MickeyKnox]

Neither Clomid nor Nolvadex work as GnRH at the pituitary gland. They stimulate LH and FSH release from the pituitary by other means. They do so through Estrogen antagonism. As you may or may not already know, Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators), which means they act as Estrogen antagonists in some tissues (breast tissue) and as Estrogen agonists in other tissues (such as the liver). One of the other areas they work as Estrogen antagonists is at the pituitary gland, where they work to block the ability for Estrogen to bind to receptors at the hypothalamus and pituitary glands. Estrogen serves as one of the hormones that the hypothalamust will monitor through receptors, and if too much of it is detected, the hypothalamus will reduce its signals to output LH and FSH. If too little of Estrogen is detected, it will do the opposite and signal increases in LH and FSH so as to increase Testosterone levels so as to restore Estrogen balance via aromatization.

In layman terms, Nolvadex and Clomid basically trick the hypothalamus and pituitary into thinking that there is insufficient Estrogen in the body (because they act as Estrogen antagonists at the receptor sites there), and so the HPTA basically goes "holy shit, we need to restore Estrogen levels by increasing output of Testosterone so a bit of it can get aromatized, lets start cranking out the LH and FSH!".

That's it. Nolvadex is not an LH/FSH analogue... it cannot possibly work like one, it isn't even a protein! HCG is considered an analogue of LH, because it contains a subunit in its quaternary protein structure that is 100% identical to LH, so it can interact with LH receptors at the Leydig cells of the testes. Nolvadex never has done this, does not do this, and can never possibly do this.

Clomid and Nolvadex = Estrogen antagonists at the hypothalamus.
HCG = LH mimetic at the Leydig cells of the testes

Hope that clears things up for you.

Fantastic explanation once again Atomini. ^^

Well, I should expand upon the idea of this 'build-up' I mentioned, but i'm too busy at the moment. It just involves math.... if you know advanced functions and calculus, you just take the formula for half-lives and/or exponential decay, plug the numbers in in terms of dose and days, and watch how many mg of a substance you'll have left over in your system after a number of weeks. Remember that the half-life only indicates how long it takes for a substance to reduce to half the original dose you took. Most dosing protocols call for a re-dose long before that half-life is up so as to maintain steady and stable peak optimal blood plasma levels. Essentially, you're piling dose on top of dose on top of dose.

I completely understand exponential and serum levels on cycle. But if you look at the values on an average recreational users cycle, the serum levels will only reach a certain point. And i wouldn't rely on one of those on line PCT Calculators for this (not that you do). BUT, having said that, at some time when you're free, can you post an example of this using Enanthate or some other long ester? I would really like to take a closer look at this theory Atomini.

I appreciate any input you can provide. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Just to be clear, i don't want anyone to think we are discussing the doubling effect as that doesn't apply to AAS because of the ester being cleaved off and the oil/steroid being absorbed at an undetermined rate (at least to me)

[Tron3219]

It does, and I do remember NEVER reading that. And i know I remember reading about the gnrh. I don't remember where, but I trust u and ur explanation more so. I'm going to b looking into this for the next few weeks now lol

But now I understand the mechanism but don't understand why both clomid and nolva. One had to offer something the other doesn't.

Sorry to technically derail the thread, but I've asked questions similar before and no one had a legitimate answer.

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[Tron3219]

I completely understand exponential and serum levels on cycle. But if you look at the values on an average recreational users cycle, the serum levels will only reach a certain point. And i wouldn't rely on one of those on line PCT Calculators for this (not that you do). BUT, having said that, at some time when you're free, can you post an example of this using Enanthate or some other long ester? I would really like to take a closer look at this theory Atomini.

I appreciate any input you can provide. Thanks in advance.

Agree 110% with the explanation! That's the atomini we've all grown to love. Idk wtf that short answer was all about the other day! Had me floored!

I'd also b more interested in seeing the buildup theory.

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[Atomini]

It does, and I do remember NEVER reading that. And i know I remember reading about the gnrh. I don't remember where, but I trust u and ur explanation more so. I'm going to b looking into this for the next few weeks now lol

But now I understand the mechanism but don't understand why both clomid and nolva. One had to offer something the other doesn't.

Sorry to technically derail the thread, but I've asked questions similar before and no one had a legitimate answer.

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

LOL that makes two of us! I have been preaching for YEARS that Nolvadex is the better choice of the two, and that it should be used and Clomid should be scrapped (Clomid actually exerts both Estrogen agonistic and antagonistic effects on the hypothalamus, so there is a drawback with it there). I've made countless posts on this forum about it. Doing a search on it should yield you the threads i've discussed this issue in-depth. To this day I don't understand why Clomid is still used. But those who do it have their reasons, no matter what they may be...

Anyhow, I don't want to derail this thread with another "CLOMID VS NOLVADEX VS CLOMID AND NOLVADEX VS NOLVADEX ONLY PCT!!!!1111oneoneone" discussion. Lets stick to the original topic: are people starting PCT too soon? lol

[MickeyKnox]

LOL that makes two of us! I have been preaching for YEARS that Nolvadex is the better choice of the two, and that it should be used and Clomid should be scrapped (Clomid actually exerts both Estrogen agonistic and antagonistic effects on the hypothalamus, so there is a drawback with it there). I've made countless posts on this forum about it. Doing a search on it should yield you the threads i've discussed this issue in-depth. To this day I don't understand why Clomid is still used. But those who do it have their reasons, no matter what they may be...

Anyhow, I don't want to derail this thread with another "CLOMID VS NOLVADEX VS CLOMID AND NOLVADEX VS NOLVADEX ONLY PCT!!!!1111oneoneone" discussion. Lets stick to the original topic: are people starting PCT too soon? lol

Dont get me going on that or i'll pull Scally out of my back pocket. lol

[Tron3219]

Haha 10/4 good buddy, and I try to use the search function on things like that, but unless ur searching for a particular post, u have to wade through 19 tons of shit to find anything remotely useful!

But yeah, pct, too soon yada yada yada...an excel based pct planner would b cool (hint) lol

But like u were saying earlier, u wait almost double the standard protocol to start ur pct. I could see how it would effect a high dosed long ester cycle, but is a few days going to b detrimental to recovery over a 4 week standard pct period?

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[Tron3219]

Dont get me going on that or i'll pull Scally out of my back pocket. lol

I hate it when I don't know who someone is, sad thing is I've been pretty active for a year here lol

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[MickeyKnox]

Dr. Micheal Scally. Give him a quick Google bro. Arguably one of the world leaders in HRT/PCT and AAS treatment and discovery.

[Tron3219]

Dr. Micheal Scally. Give him a quick Google bro. Arguably one of the worlds leaders in HRT/PCT and AAS.

I will when I'm not driving, it's bad enough I'm texting and driving lol

Gotta love these long flat straight baron lands of west Texas...

-Chomp Chomp Chomp-Clink Clink Clink-

[BBJT200]

Test E half life is closer to 5 days for most people. But as you are aware, everyone is different. And if you do your own research you'll see data suggesting between 5-7days. Also, the amount of exogenous testosterone plays a key role as well. If a user runs 2 grams of test per wk, then i agree that the starting time will vary considerably. But if feel that you're contributing to this forum by arguing standard protocols, i can assure you youre not. Anyone can do that. These are simply safe starting points for the recreational user. I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone, particularly for advanced users.

Are you an advanced user? If you are, you would know from experience what you require on cycle to properly and safely build muscle for you and how to properly run a PCT according to YOUR experience and amounts of oils/AAS.

So what is your point? Other than pointing out the obvious.

BTW,

500mg Test E

5 days later = 250
5 days later = 125
5 days later = 62.50 Close enough for you smart guy? I'll stick to 14 days - its been working forever.

Being on TRT, I have zero reason to do PCT personally.

From various articles i've read, test E has a half life of anywhere from 5-12 days. now, that's quite a range...Where do you come up with 'for most users, it's 5 days?'
I do feel that I am contributing positively to this forum by arguing your so called standard procedures.
How the hell do you think anything in the world progresses? Debate.

" I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone"
You should include this little disclaimer when giving out advice. By making statements such as you did here,

:so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?
Absolutely.:

You lead the user to believe that there is only one possible answer. It's 14 days, end of story. Well buddy, it's not the only possibility.
If you're going to give advice on a subject that is different for everyone, don't make absolute statements like you consistently do. Try adding in some useful tips such as, you may need to start pct a little later due to the fact that your body may metabolize the hormone at a slower/faster rate than others. Try being less arrogant about what you "know," and more helpful to those who need it. That's what this board is here for, after all.

The point is, 5 days is cutting it very short. 7 days is in the middle of the range, @ 21 days for pct start time...I think you can see what I'm getting at.
This thread is about people starting pct too soon. Yes, people are starting PCT too soon. ESPECIALLY FOR LONG ESTERED, HIGH DOSAGE CYCLES.

[bigsiv]

Being on TRT, I have zero reason to do PCT personally.

From various articles i've read, test E has a half life of anywhere from 5-12 days. now, that's quite a range...Where do you come up with 'for most users, it's 5 days?'
I do feel that I am contributing positively to this forum by arguing your so called standard procedures.
How the hell do you think anything in the world progresses? Debate.

" I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone"
You should include this little disclaimer when giving out advice. By making statements such as you did here,

:so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?
Absolutely.:

You lead the user to believe that there is only one possible answer. It's 14 days, end of story. Well buddy, it's not the only possibility.
If you're going to give advice on a subject that is different for everyone, don't make absolute statements like you consistently do. Try adding in some useful tips such as, you may need to start pct a little later due to the fact that your body may metabolize the hormone at a slower/faster rate than others. Try being less arrogant about what you "know," and more helpful to those who need it. That's what this board is here for, after all.

The point is, 5 days is cutting it very short. 7 days is in the middle of the range, @ 21 days for pct start time...I think you can see what I'm getting at.
This thread is about people starting pct too soon. Yes, people are starting PCT too soon. ESPECIALLY FOR LONG ESTERED, HIGH DOSAGE CYCLES.

Although I would never try and piss Mickey Knox off I do agree with this post. I do think the standard pct protocol should be adapted for each cycle and individual IMO this may be why some people struggle with keeping gains and mood etc. I don't really know I ain't a scientist when I asked the question I stated. 'For educational purposes'
Please keep discussing because I think this could be a good thread.
Atomoni I would love to see an example if your formulae as well so I can make my own informed decision. Thanx guys!

[bigsiv]

Just gonna add why I started this thread and it was because after my last test E at 600mgs a week 2 weeks into pct I knew (guessed not bloodwork) I had test in my body still. My libidi was high, mood was great, lifts still great etc
Then a couple if days later I could tell I wasn't right, mood and libido down etc

My conclusion is my pct started too early, I believe, depending on esters and amounts, the period we wait before going into pct should be changed depending on cycle.

You guys are very intelligent therefore I believe this 'debate' has merit whether you agree or not.

Again Mickey Knox not trying to start anything but you were very abrupt and definite until Atomini got involved then you changed your tune a little, not really like you to not be open minded?

[MickeyKnox]

Being on TRT, I have zero reason to do PCT personally. So youre just here to argue for nothing?

From various articles i've read, test E has a half life of anywhere from 5-12 days. now, that's quite a range...Where do you come up with 'for most users, it's 5 days?'
I do feel that I am contributing positively to this forum by arguing your so called standard procedures.
How the hell do you think anything in the world progresses? Debate.

" I can argue my own information anytime i like because it simply doesn't fit for everyone"
You should include this little disclaimer when giving out advice. By making statements such as you did here,

:so for enanthate its still pct after 14days from last pin?
Absolutely.:

You lead the user to believe that there is only one possible answer. It's 14 days, end of story. Well buddy, it's not the only possibility. I didn't say i was. Thats my opinion. Im not your buddy.
If you're going to give advice on a subject that is different for everyone, don't make absolute statements like you consistently do. Try adding in some useful tips such as, you may need to start pct a little later due to the fact that your body may metabolize the hormone at a slower/faster rate than others. Thanks for the advice. Perhaps you could do your own research and let us all know what youve come up with. Try being less arrogant about what you "know," and more helpful to those who need it. That's what this board is here for, after all.

The point is, 5 days is cutting it very short. 7 days is in the middle of the range, @ 21 days for pct start time...I think you can see what I'm getting at.
This thread is about people starting pct too soon. Yes, people are starting PCT too soon. ESPECIALLY FOR LONG ESTERED, HIGH DOSAGE CYCLES. This is YOUR opinion based upon what?? Support your claims.

First of all, Im not sure i understand where you're coming from here. Your recent comment, "your so called standard procedures." clearly shows disdain for me for some reason. For the record, these protocols have been around a lot longer than you and i have. I agree with them and support them. Are you angry that i choose to support them based on personal experience and empirical data. Are you holding me responsible because you dont agree? Are you kidding me? You sound like you have an axe to grind.

There's absolute nothing wrong with debating anything on here. But it seems to me that you're only intention is to argue for the sake of arguing. If your intentions are as true and aligned as you propose, then please provide something we can read to support your statements. Otherwise, youre not contributing, youre simply a guy on TRT who doers not include PCT and wants to argue for the sake of arguing with empty statements. I'm more than happy to listen (read) what you have to say provided you include at least one article, one personal experience, one piece of data, so that we all may have a read and formulate opinions based upon solid evidence. Is this too much ask?

Incidentally, do you have any independent thoughts of your own backed by experience, or empirical data, and clinical studies? Or do you plan on simply arguing with me and making empty claims for the rest of this "debate"?

[bigsiv]

Mickey Knox I know I haven't been around for too long so I will start by saying you and the rest of the guys have helped my tremendously with cycles, nutrition and training. My OP was only intended to start a good debate on pct start times and whether the protocol used (although it is tried and tested) could be improved.
Hope this thread doesn't get derailed too much I respect all you guys for you time and input

[MickeyKnox]

Mickey Knox I know I haven't been around for too long so I will start by saying you and the rest of the guys have helped my tremendously with cycles, nutrition and training. My OP was only intended to start a good debate on pct start times and whether the protocol used (although it is tried and tested) could be improved.
Hope this thread doesn't get derailed too much I respect all you guys for you time and input

I think this thread and your question is an excellent one Bigsiv. But i equally believe that BBJT200's motives are not entirely as transparent as he would like us to believe. This thread will not be derailed, regardless of his intentions.

[bigsiv]

I think this thread and your question is an excellent one Bigsiv. But i equally believe that BBJT200's motives are not entirely as transparent as he would like us to believe. This thread will not be derailed, regardless of his intentions.

Much appreciated Mickey!

[jimmyinkedup]

This is an excellent thread.
I have wanted to post so many times but then I just kept reading and decided to STFU.
Seriously great thread guys. Im not gonna add anything re scientific debate or anything else (progress on my part) but I will say this:
I'd damn sure rather start my pct too early, than too late. Also a good habit i got into especially when running 19 nors was extending my pct 2 weeks of just nolva at 20mgs/day for those last 2 weeks. So a 6 week total pct-last 2 just nolva. Eh for whatever its worth.

[Lunk1]

This is an excellent thread.
I have wanted to post so many times but then I just kept reading and decided to STFU.
Seriously great thread guys. Im not gonna add anything re scientific debate or anything else (progress on my part) but I will say this:
I'd damn sure rather start my pct too early, than too late. Also a good habit i got into especially when running 19 nors was extending my pct 2 weeks of just nolva at 20mgs/day for those last 2 weeks. So a 6 week total pct-last 2 just nolva. Eh for whatever its worth.

I think you detailed take and opinion on this would be very appreciated Jimmy!