NEED EXPERTS HELP - Using Steroids to recover atrophied muslces

[Wheels15]

Hey Guys,

I'm a new member and have a question for you experienced users out there. I had West Nile Virus 5 summers ago. It nearly killed me, and left me paralyzed at one point from the chest down, and then from the waist down. I have full sensation throughout my body. I have steadily recovered some movement and am still recovering, but I am looking to help speed up the recovery. I can move my legs, and contract my abdominals/lower back muscles, but they fatigue out quickly. I use a manual wheelchair and have recently got long leg braces and a walker that allow me to walk around my house. My core muscles tire out quickly while walking, and I am finding it difficult to balance using the leg braces with lifting weights. I am wondering what would you guys recommend I try for a first cycle and how long? I've researched on my own and I think Deca -Durabolin , Anadrol , and some sort of Test would be a good start.

P.S. I've discussed this with my family doctor who I've known for many years before my illness and he said, "As your friend and as your doctor I recommend you do this." He cannot legally write me the prescription though it has to be my specialist who I am going to see in November. I want to gain as much knowledge as I can before I go to see him.

Thanks in advance!!!

[Atomini]

I would reccomend to wait a little while before jumping to anabolic steroids to assist in your recovery.

One of the big issues here is not just musuclar atrophy - but the atrophy of your tendons, cartilage, and connective tissue. The problem I can see arising here is that should you use anabolic steroids to restore your atrophied muscle tissue, you will potentially injure your connective tissue. Anabolic steroids promote rapid tissue growth of muscle fibers, but your tendons and connective tissue cannot grow at the same rate. Therefore, you may end up having muscles that will generate far more force than your connective tissue can handle, and what will have a high chance of resulting will be tendon and connective tissue tears, strains, etc. and you absolutely don't want that. That will simply set you back even further. There have been many people who jumped on AAS far too soon after starting to train, they used some of the strongest mass builders out there (dbol , anadrol , etc.) and what resulted were tendon strains and tears - and these people were not coming out of paralysis. These people were able-bodied men who simply jumped on the juice way too soon after beginning a weight training program.

My advice would be to restore your muscle function and muscle mass NATURALLY for a good while. Be sure that you regain full capability, proper rehabilitation, etc. and then a ways down the road you can think of using AAS to get yourself further out there.

At the moment I feel you are just too underdeveloped to utilize something so powerful. I see injury waiting to happen.

[Atomini]

I would also like to add that the quick fatiguing of your muscles when performing basic movements is very normal - i've seen it before and see it all the time in patients recovering from comatose, or injuries that have left them bed-ridden and incapable of basic movement for so long.

I guarantee that if you work at this with proper rehab, you should be able to regain far more capability than you could ever imagine within a matter of 2 or 3 MONTHS. Solid and proper nutrition to facilitate the recovery process is a big must as well. Get those calories and protein into you after each rehab and resistance training session.

I know its hard, but you need to start out small with things like this. Your body is extremely frail at the moment.

[Wheels15]

Thanks for the reply Atomini. I would like to point out that it has been 5 years since I was diagnosed. I understand that there can be concerns with connective tissue, but doesn't Deca support connective tissue? Deca was what my family doctor thought would be a good one to use. I didn't even think to ask why, because I was just shocked that he was so supportive of this idea. I saw him last year and he said he wasn't sure that it would be a good idea, and thought that I should wait...similar to what you have said above, but he certainly changed his opinion since last summer. Also, related to injury, I won't be lifting like an idiot. I know a lot of guys get hurt because they are lifting weights that are too heavy, or are lifting with improper technique. I'm not one of those guys who wants to get massive and look like the hulk. I would be using it basically as an experiment to see if it would help with my condition, because there are no documented cases similar to mine, where anabolic steroids have been tried. My diet and training are pretty solid, but another attractive aspect of steroids is the reduced recovery time. This should help me build muscle and be able to use my braces and lift weights more frequently. I'm also a hardgainer, so gaining mass on normal muslces is hard enough for me, never mind building up atrophied muscles. Can you offer me some more advice as to a cycle you would recommend for a beginner in my condition? I'm not planning on getting from the black market unless my specialist says no in November. I feel like I got nothing to lose to try it...and would like to point out that if I start using, I can always stop if I am experiencing negative side effects that outweigh the positive.

[Atomini]

I think you need to re-assess whether or not this is REALLY worth the risk for yourself.

You are 20 years old, correct? You must take this into account. Are you really willing to risk long term damage to your HPTA for recovery purposes that you more than likely would be able to achieve without anabolic steroids ? At 20 years old, your endocrine system is likely still developing, and should you end up interfering with this process by administering exogenous hormones, you have a high probability of messing things up in the long term. Do you really want to look back in 5-10 years, being on TRT or having disrupted testosterone levels , and regret using AAS for something that you could've recovered without it?

The other issue I forsee is that should your specialist perscribe anabolic steroids for this purpose, I guarantee he will not be giving you anything near supraphysiological doses of testosterone or deca , or anything else. He would likely have you on what many of us here would consider low doses. Would they assist in recovery? Yes, most likely. But I know for a fact that you are not going to be perscribed enough to run a full cycle, and you're taking a risk at your age with this stuff.

I just want to make sure you are aware of these things before I even begin to suggest anything. I understand your doctor supports the idea, but he is a GP, no? He does not understand the benefits and risks of anabolic steroid use for ANY purpose, whether it is theraputic, recovery, or performance enhancement. I am curious as to what the specialist will think and tell you when you see him.

[Wheels15]

Yes, I am 20 years old, and have spent a lot of time looking at the risks involved in the use of AAS. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't HPTA and endocrine problems typically associated with steroid abuse ? A lot of the research I've come across suggests that if you use the proper dosage and cycle properly there is a lot less risks involved.

I fully agree with you that if my specialist prescribes them to me it will be a very low dose. I am okay with that, because it's probably the safest way to start using them. I like the idea of just easing into it and seeing how it affects me.

Yes my doctor is a GP, but he has prescribed them to people before. I know of one man he prescribes them to because his body stopped producing testesterone (not related to previous steroid use ). So although he is a GP, he does have a limited amount of knowledge about the stuff. He said similar to what I said above in that if I start experiencing negative side effects, I can get off of them.

I would like to add that I talked to my specialist last summer too about this. He was surprised when I asked about this because he had never thought about it before. He is a spinal chord injury specialist, so I am a unique patient of his because I never suffered a spinal chord injury. Most of his patients are completely paralyzed, so steroids would do absolutely nothing for them. He said no at the time because I was only 19, and hadn't done enough research yet. I asked him if I should give up on the idea of getting steroids prescribed and he said, "No don't give up on the idea, just know that in order for me to prescribe them to you, you will have to build a strong case." He went on to say how he has to be able to explain to his superiors why he's prescribing steroids to a man my age.

Another thing I would like to add is the strength in my chest, and back are significantly weaker than they should (or could) be, so I'd like to add steroids into my routine to help get back to normal strength in the areas where a full muscle contraction is taking place.

[Atomini]

AAS use is always a risk, especially when using highly suppressive compounds such as deca . In one study, a single 100mg injection of deca resulted in a total 100% suppression of endogenous testosterone production. That's total shutdown. And it took the test subjects one whole month to recover their testosterone levels back to baseline (this is without PCT compounds of course). So, you very well can possibly ruin your HPTA even with what would be considered 'low doses'. The risk is still there, trust me.

I think you should wait until you see your specialist again. If you feel the risk is worth it, then go for it. But make sure you speak to him first and see what he will give you (if he does agree with going ahead with the plan). I'm very curious as to what he will say. When are you supposed to see him again?

[Wheels15]

Okay, so what about running some sort of Test? Followed by a proper PCT?

I see my specialist again in November. I am not planning on using before I see him. I am just trying to build up a case for him to encourage him to go ahead with it. I won't consider using through my own avenues unless he says no. I was just curious to see what experienced users would have to say to me, because like you said there is always a risk when using AAS, but I think you will agree with me when I say that risk is significantly reduced when proper guidance, and user education is in place prior to using. Prescription or not, I plan to go in for regular screenings to ensure I am healthy.

I feel the risk is worth trying, but I want to do everything I can to reduce the risk to as low as possible.

[Atomini]

Test would shut you down as well, just letting you know that. PCT products would have to be bought non-perscription 'black market' as you said, since there is no such thing as 'PCT' in medical application, especially for your purposes and condition. The doctor won't perscribe nolvadex or HCG for these purposes, because he'd also have to justify the valid use of these things, of which 'PCT' is not one of them unfortunately.

Normally I would be dead-set on my opinion that you should absolutely not use AAS until you are 24 or so. But in your case, I do see a valid medical reason for doing so. At the same time, you're young as well. So as I said, you're going to have to weigh the pros and cons, and weigh the risk:benefit ratio. I do believe even on the low dose end, you should be able to see dramatic recovery and improvement. Lets see what the specialist says in a couple of months. In the meantime, try your best at rehab over the next couple of months with your natural capabilities.

I would reccomend for the time being, do as much research as you can on the forum. Go through as many steroid profiles as you can, familiarize yourself with the different compounds, and perhaps see which may be suitable for you. When you see the specialist, show up prepared and show him that you've done your research and that you know your stuff. Hopefully he has done his share of research as well, and you two can meet at a middle ground. If you do end up using anything, be sure to also request regular bloodwork to make sure everything is OK while you're on, and that everything is OK after you're done.

[Wheels15]

I am glad that you can sort of see my reasoning for wanting to use...if I wasn't in this condition I wouldn't be attracted to steroids at all. So when you say at the low dose end I should see dramatic recovery and improvement, what would you recommend in terms of compounds? I'm not going to take what you say and go out and buy it, I am just curious what you think would be a good first compound(s) to try. I read your post about Tren , and it sounds like you really know your stuff so I am curious what you would recommend because you seem to have a vast amount of knowledge regarding the different compounds. I was curious about Tren, but I think I'm a long ways away from something so potent.

[Times Roman]

I'm going to jump in here, and neither agree nor disagree with the conversation at this point. I'd like to just put this out there for thought.

Mate,
There are others that have similar atrophy problems and find relief in steroids . The AIDS community quite often receives AAS such as anavar , and Human Growth Hormone to slow down and reverse wasting. You are in a similar boat, are you not? You are having extreme difficulty with normal muscular function. Because of this, you may wish to research the above two. There are other hormones prescribed, although these two are probably the most common.

The anavar you will have to think about. It is a little on the expensive side, and can partially supress your natural testosterone production. You would either need to maintain a low dose to prevent this suppression (30mg/day or less), or protect your natural testosterone supression as mentioned above, or supplement with injectible testosterone at a mild dose.

HGH is another problem when it comes to finding a good supply. It is expensive and quite often bogus if you are not getting from a KNOWN legit source.

These two in concert are probably a good start.

Forget the deca . It creates too many later on sexual problems. forget the anadrol . it has too many side effects like lethargy. It is also harmful to the liver. Finally, it does not provide much long term benefit once you stop taking it.

Let me know if any questions?

Good luck!
---Roman

[stpete]

What are you doing physically right now?

[Atomini]

LOL good luck getting tren from a doctor! It's not even FDA approved for human use, so the only place you're going to end up finding it is made by underground labs. There's no script for that! Besides, using tren for your condition is like killing a fly with a sledgehammer. There's no need.

In your case, I would actually reccomend something like Anavar (aka Oxandrolone) with a low dose of testosterone . Perhaps a moderate dose of testosterone-only (lets say, 200-300mg per week). Other options could be Primobolan (aka Methenolone) as well. Note i'm going for the fairly 'mild' stuff, because in your condition, even a low dose of Anavar or Primo would result in some significant mass improvement after the type of muscular atrophy you've ended up with. And these are both anabolic steroids that are easily obtainable through perscription.

[Wheels15]

Assuming you are referring to what I do for exercise....I have 3 different weight days, and try to use my leg braces twice a week. First day of weights I do Benchpress, Incline Bench Press, Flies, Close Grip Bench Press, and tricep extensions. 2nd day I do Military Press, an exercise that I call vertical rows (not sure what the correct term is for it but its another trap exercise), and lateral raises. 3rd day I do Lat Pull Downs, Bicep Pulldowns, Rows, and Bicep Curls.

I am pretty weak on all exercises, especially ones where my core muscles are involved. Bench press is probably the weakest of all of them.

I use my long leg braces and a walker to walk around my house, and have kind of plateaud in terms of progress. Currently I am up to 7 laps from my bedroom around the kitchen and back, with taking a break in between each lap. In June I would have been doing maybe 3 or 4.

As for the AIDS patients, our conditions are similar in that we are weakened and have lost a tremendous amount of muscle mass, but I won't waste away further as an aids patient will. I am in recovery and am slowly building muscle and gaining mobility back, I'm just lookin to kick it into high gear. I do lots of stretching and stuff too. My flexibility is outstanding for someone who is considered a parapylegic (I'm not a true para anymore because I can move my legs a bit)

[Wheels15]

LOL I wasn't going to use Tren bud I was just curious about it!

Thanks for the recommendations guys though I'll look into those. Anavar and Primo are two that I know nothing about, but sounds like you guys think that's a good place to start. I'll see what the doc thinks.

[Metalject]

Atomini, I know you're in medical school or preparing for it based on other posts of yours I've read, but I am curious about something. The primary purpose of use of the steroids mentioned is for people like the OP. Nandrolone perhaps more so than anything else that's been mentioned in this thread. I understand your concern in regards to suppression if he used Nandrolone, but as you stated this can easily be remedied and avoided. On that basis, as it can be avoided, considering his condition and the extremely slow rate of recovery, what reasons (specifically) would you give for not using Nandrolone? In my opinion, I cannot think of a more valuable steroid for this guy to use. Anyway, look forward to your response.

[Atomini]

Metalject,

I am not against the idea of him using AAS to assist him in recovery and rehabilitation of his atrophied muscle. I was simply outlining the pros and cons of such an idea, and to be sure he is prepared for it and in-the-know, so that he may be able to make a clear judgement as to whether or not it is worth it. A good honest and proper practicing MD would have the same response and advice. If a doctor just automatically agrees to any suggestion and writes out scripts like there's no tomorrow, that's not exactly a good thing. A good doctor would be open and highly willing to consider the patients' suggestion of AAS use for recovery from atrophy, but at the same time allow the patient to be aware of the potential risks and then ask the question "do you feel this is worth a shot knowing these points? If so, lets do it.".

In regards to specific compounds used, Nandrolone would be a good choice but as i've mentioned in a previous post in this thread, I think that Oxandrolone or Methenolone would be better suited choices for this condition. Of course, ANY anabolic steroid would provide excellent repair and recovery for atrophied muscles. I think the big 3 he should look into are those ones. My major issue with Nandrolone is its highly suppressive effect on the HPTA, and of course this is due to its property of being a 19-nor progestin. Anavar (Oxandrolone) is not very suppressive, especially at whatever dose would typically be perscribed for his condition. The same can be said for Primobolan (Methenolone).

[Wheels15]

So would you think that using Testosterone cypionate or enanthate in addition to using say nandrolone be a good idea? Or would nandrolone on its own be fine? What I've read suggests that nandrolone should be taken with some sort of testosterone . I will discuss Anavar and Primobolan with my specialist because I will only be using those ones if I can get them prescribed because I see that they are quite expensive.

I am curious Atomini, if you don't mind me asking...what are your credentials? You seem to know an awful lot about this stuff...more than your average user that's for sure. Are you self taught through your own experience and reading? Or have you attended some sort of post secondary institution to gain further knowledge in chemistry? Are you in Med-school or preparing for it?

[Wheels15]

Okay So I've read about Primobolan and Anavar on this site a bit, and I'm not sure if they are quite what I'm looking for. They seem to be recommended during a cutting cycle, and I certainly am not interested in cutting weight. One of my specialists concerns when I saw him last summer was my body weight. I would prefer AAS that are used in bulking I think. At this point I think Testosterone of some sort would be best, with the possibility of stacking it with something else. Not high doses of anything though, I'm light as a feather so I'd imagine AAS would affect me quite drastically being so small. FYI I'm about 6'1 and only weighed like 113lbs last summer (embarrassing, I know). I'm not sure what I weigh now, but I would guess between 120 and 125.

[Atomini]

So would you think that using Testosterone cypionate or enanthate in addition to using say nandrolone be a good idea? Or would nandrolone on its own be fine? What I've read suggests that nandrolone should be taken with some sort of testosterone . I will discuss Anavar and Primobolan with my specialist because I will only be using those ones if I can get them prescribed because I see that they are quite expensive.

I am curious Atomini, if you don't mind me asking...what are your credentials? You seem to know an awful lot about this stuff...more than your average user that's for sure. Are you self taught through your own experience and reading? Or have you attended some sort of post secondary institution to gain further knowledge in chemistry? Are you in Med-school or preparing for it?

Nandrolone absolutely must be run with at least a TRT dose of testosterone to maintain the normal functions and processes that testosterone governs. It's trouble if you use it on its own. The same can be said for Anavar and Primobolan, but not to the same extent. You can run those on their own without the same detriment as running Nandrolone on its own, but I wouldn't reccomend it, it's not an optimal thing to do.

I'm trying to become a doctor (aiming for endocrinology but I also have large interest in virology as well). Pre-med. I've run into a few setbacks lately but hey, these things happen in life. I'd say my knowledge is a good hefty amount of both formal education as well as my own personal reading and research. You must remember that there is no such thing as 'anabolic steroid class' in university, or even in medical school. The use of anabolic steroids for the purpose of performance enhancement is not recognized by the medical community as a legitemate valid use. I would like to see this one day change, and i'd like to play a role in helping to make that change. I've got lots of big plans... but, can't talk too much about them at this time

[Atomini]

Okay So I've read about Primobolan and Anavar on this site a bit, and I'm not sure if they are quite what I'm looking for. They seem to be recommended during a cutting cycle, and I certainly am not interested in cutting weight. One of my specialists concerns when I saw him last summer was my body weight. I would prefer AAS that are used in bulking I think. At this point I think Testosterone of some sort would be best, with the possibility of stacking it with something else. Not high doses of anything though, I'm light as a feather so I'd imagine AAS would affect me quite drastically being so small. FYI I'm about 6'1 and only weighed like 113lbs last summer (embarrassing, I know). I'm not sure what I weigh now, but I would guess between 120 and 125.

You're grossly underestimating the power of those two compounds, especially in your situation. Anavar 's anabolic rating is in the range of 322 - 630. That makes it 3.2 - 6.3 times stronger than testosterone . Ask anyone who has used anavar what the strength gains are like, and they will tell you that its actually pretty dramatic.

Don't take the steroid profiles you read as 100% exact to-the-letter gospel. I have always been a proponent of telling people to look at the PROPERTIES of the anabolic steroid in question and judge it based on its properties. There really is no such thing as 'cutting' steroids or 'bulking' steroids. These are just labels that people have given them. I've used Anadrol -50, which is well known as a 'bulking' agent, for cutting once! You can really do anything with any anabolic steroid as you please. You need to know how to properly eat and train in order to influence your desired results.

Anabolic steroids do not create, they only enhance what you are already doing.

[Atomini]

I also want to quickly add that what I am getting at in a sense is that YOU are the one who 'steers' your results in the direction you desire based on your nutrition and training. The anabolic steroids don't steer anything anywhere, they are simply a driving force. Take someone who eats like crap (dirty junk food, poor nutrition habits, etc), throw them Winstrol , Anavar , and Primo - all typically known as 'cutting' steroids - and will this person get 'cut'? No.

We have many examples of this across this forum, it doesn't take that much to look them up and see.

[Wheels15]

Yes I realize that they don't create, but I feel like with the effort I've put into my rehab I've got little to show for it. I think that AAS are going to not only improve my results, but I have a feeling they will motivate me to work harder because there will be dramatic, visible improvements (hopefully). I also hope they will help me be able to use my braces and lift weights more frequently because they should help with the recovery of my core muscles which are being hit everytime I workout or walk with braces. I meant to ask before, I outlined my training routine above, and I am wondering is 3 sets of 10 reps a good amount of reps to increase strength and build muscle? I certainly wouldn't want to do more than that, but have thought that maybe I should drop off the number of reps in each set to about 8.

[Atomini]

Well, the way I train myself as well as many others (one of my jobs is a personal trainer) is of the low volume, high intensity training method (HIT). I.e. the Dorian Yates and Mike Mentzer method of training. What this involves is a very minimal number of working sets (1-2 working sets per exercise, approximately 3 exercises per muscle group). Each working set is very intense, slow cadence, strict form, and brought to the point of failure with the rep range between 6-10. Would this be a good training method for you? Yes, I think so. I think that most other training methods would work well for you as well. I do think that whatever you decide to do, keep the volume of sets to an absolute minimum.

In your case, you have very atrophied muscle. Inserting high volume training in there I think would be a big problem. In another thread somewhere, I described the idea of doing only the minimal amount of volume necessary to stimulate growth and no more - that's it. Any further sets beyond what is minimally required to stimulate growth is simply putting you into the negative, and you're just ending up digging a deeper and deeper hole as you destroy more and more muscle fibers with each subsequent set you do, thereby setting you back further and further which ends up making recovery that much longer and more difficult. Anyhow, I won't harp on that too much longer.

I'd simply reccomend a rep range of 6-10 reps, bring your 1-2 working sets to failure, and as you progress in being able to do more reps with a given weight (lets say for example 100 lbs), once you hit 10 or more reps to failure you should then increase the weight on your next workout and start the cycle over again. So, for example the next time you'd increase your weight by 5 lbs, and end up hitting failure at 8 reps. Next workout, try to reach failure beyond 8 reps. When you hit 10 or more, its time to increase the weight again. This little system allows for a nice structured progressive overload to keep the muscle growing and strengthening at a steady rate in order to keep up with the increased demands from the heavier weight. And train each muscle group no more than once per week.

Lastly, try to stick to compound exercises for the most part. This will ensure that your atrophied muscles should grow and strengthen all together in an equal manner. You can then work on any imbalances later on after you've built up a solid base from working on compound movements primarily. This should also ensure that your core muscles are properly developed in the manner they should be (i.e. supporting the body and other muscles within the compound movements).

[Bonaparte]

Unless you have a source, just see what your specialist is willing to hand out.
In your condition, I honestly don't see anything wrong with a low dose of Dbol , Anadrol , or Var.
Otherwise, go with test. I'd avoid nandrolone , as the side effects can be tricky to deal with.

[Wheels15]

Okay guys so I am 10 days away from seeing my specialist, and am pretty pumped about my first cycle. I can no longer use my leg braces because my legs have gotten too thick, which is obviously an indicator of increased muscle mass. This is certainly going to support my case to get AAS prescribed to me. I also got on a scale a few weeks ago and discovered that I have gained roughly 20lbs since last summer which is a significant improvement.

I wanted to see what you guys thing about a tentative cycle I've put together for myself. I would like to go with with an Anavar -Test E cycle. I have a couple questions about the Test though. I wanna run it for 12 weeks and figure I'll run like anywhere from 300 to 500 mg a week. Is 250mg/ml the typical concentration of this stuff? If it is, then I figure 500 per week would be efficient because I could take it in 2 one ml shots per week. The other thing I was wondering is if its neccessary to take two shots a week. I've read that you can get away with one shot a week, but the general opinion seems to be that 2 shots per week is best. As far as the anavar goes, I am hoping my doctor will prescribe me 40-50mg a day. I figure I'll run the Anavar starting on maybe my 4th week into the cycle, and run it til the end for a total of 8 weeks. Would it be better to run the Anavar for the full 12 weeks alongside the Test? I also think I will get myself some Nolva and run it for 4 weeks PCT. Would I wanna wait like 2 weeks after my final shot of test to start the Nolva?

Let me know what you guys think of this cycle...keep in mind I think 500 mg a week of test might be a bit high considering I weigh roughly 130 lbs. I just want to do 2 shots per week at 1ml per shot for simplicity sake. Thanks in advance brochachos.

[Atomini]

Hey Wheels15, good to hear from you again and i'm pleased to see your progress has improved dramatically.

If you have pharmaceutical grade Testosterone Enanthate , the concentrations are always 250mg/ml. Underground labs have been known to make concentrations as high as 350mg/ml but you will never find pharmaceutical human grade stuff with a concentration that high. In any case, I would actually reccomend you aim for 300mg/week instead of 500. Reason being that first of all, this is your very first cycle and you will make amazing progress and respond very well to moderate doses. Second reason is because of the state of atrophy that your body is in - it won't take very much to pack that lost mass back on and then some. You also want to keep most of your mass as well, right? The body can't hold on to rapid large gains in mass in a short period of time compared to smaller more manageable ones (or lower doses providing more steady gradual gains), and dose does dictate this to a degree (then follows diet and training, etc). I guarantee exceptional results from 300mg/week, and in fact that is what I did for my very first cycle and I put on 27 lbs. in 10 weeks, so I have no doubt you should be able to do the same or better with your condition.

It is also highly adviseable that you split your shots into 2x per week, separated evenly. This would mean something like 0.6ml (150mg) on Monday, and then another 0.6ml (150mg) on Thursday for a total of 300mg/week, and then repeat the cycle. As far as the Anavar goes, lets see what your doctor can get you, but a good 50mg per day or more should be solid for you on this cycle.

Finally, your Nolvadex PCT can be run at 40/40/20/20.

[Wheels15]

Thanks for the advice bro. I got a source who claims he can get 250mg/ml, 350mg/ml or even 450 mg/ml. He said that he's used the 250 a couple times and its pretty good. Only per 10 ml vial too so that's affordable, especially if I'm only gunna run 300 mg per week. Do the needles typically have a scale that can measure 0.1 ml? My only concern with doing 300 per week is that it might be hard to take an even shot every time. What's an average cost for Nolvadex ? My guy said he can get it but has no idea how much it will cost. I've looked on the net and it doesn't look overly expensive. I figure since he can get Test at a good price then the Nolva should be reasonable. I'm trying to keep the cost of my 12 week cycle including PCT, needles and everything to. This is obviously not including the Var. If the doc says no then I might run a test only cycle cuz var's expensive. I also recently spent about $260 at bodybuilding.com ordering supplements which I am currently awaiting to arrive. I think I've got everything covered; multis, good protein powder, some quality weight gainer which I intend to use at the beginning of my cycle for the first 4 weeks, some casein powder, fish oils, flax seed oils, milk thistle for liver support, and then my usual pre workouts and creatine. I'm hoping to gain about 15-20 pounds on my first 12 week cycle.

[Atomini]

Price discussion is not allowed on the forum, it is against the rules. You're going to have to edit those prices out of your post.

All syringes do have a scale on it to be measured. If you want to shoot 0.6ml, its easy - you just draw it up to one point above the 0.5ml mark (you're doing just 1 point above half a ml). Other than that, it sounds like you're all set. I just want to point out one more thing: milk thistle is useless and a waste of money. For liver support, look into UDCA/TUDCA. I have a big liver thread I made on here about it. You'll see it in the educational threads section, or by doing the search function.

[gymfu]

If you can access good hgh I would try that first, it won't have any effect on your young HPTA system.

Have you ever had your testosterone levels checked?

[Wheels15]

Sorry about violating the rules, I haven't looked at the rules for quite some time now.

I probably will discuss hgh with my doc, but I would venture to guess he'd be more likely to prescribe me var. And no I have never have my test levels checked. I will probably do that before I begin my first cycle just to be safe.

[gymfu]

Gl, but I doubt your doc will give you hgh. It's not recognized as having healing properties.

[MuscleInk]

Gl, but I doubt your doc will give you hgh. It's not recognized as having healing properties.

Correct. Only approved for GHD. It's being explored in AIDS an HIV patients as well. A few of my docs prescribe it off label for a few elderly patients but again, it's not approved for anything other than GHD and HIV/AIDS indications are pending.

[Sworder]

The more medical literature I read the more I realize that HPTA maturation isn't a reality. They use Anavar to induce HPTA maturation(the testicles), the pituitary's "maturation" is exaggerated and I don't know if it is to protect kids from using AAS or if the people who are suggesting this truly believes in the notion or if they are misinformed. If you are young you will want to stay away from androgens that bind strongly to the AR, this is for any age. Also, it is unknown what "damage" AAS do; but I strongly suspect it does damage to tissue which are considered "androgenic ".

The anabolic /androgenic ratio system is stupid. Unless somebody wants to define what these measurements are based on they shouldn't be used, keep in mind I know what they are based on, do you?

To summarize: I do not believe in the HPTA maturation in the sense the rest of the forum does. Growth plate fusion is the largest problem and that is why less androgenic compounds are used like anavar and nandrolone . I do not recommend for "younger people" to use AAS because they do cause damage and will more than likely be used irresponsibly. I wanted to clear up the confusion of why younger users shouldn't use AAS instead of using a copy and pasted script to give a vague explanation. OP should use an AAS, it's what they are made for. You don't need to run bodybuilding doses, because you aren't bodybuilding. I can find literature for you OP if you want additional information on how to proceed. Also, connective tissue won't be an issue. You are looking to get back to normal right? Not superstrength..

Nandrolone would be a good compound for you, the downside would be the long shutdown because certain metabolites take months to clear. But it doesn't bind strongly to the AR yet yields good anabolism. Anavar would be better though.

[gymfu]

The more medical literature I read the more I realize that HPTA maturation isn't a reality. They use Anavar to induce HPTA maturation(the testicles), the pituitary's "maturation" is exaggerated and I don't know if it is to protect kids from using AAS or if the people who are suggesting this truly believes in the notion or if they are misinformed. If you are young you will want to stay away from androgens that bind strongly to the AR, this is for any age. Also, it is unknown what "damage" AAS do; but I strongly suspect it does damage to tissue which are considered "androgenic ".

The anabolic /androgenic ratio system is stupid. Unless somebody wants to define what these measurements are based on they shouldn't be used, keep in mind I know what they are based on, do you?

To summarize: I do not believe in the HPTA maturation in the sense the rest of the forum does. Growth plate fusion is the largest problem and that is why less androgenic compounds are used like anavar and nandrolone . I do not recommend for "younger people" to use AAS because they do cause damage and will more than likely be used irresponsibly. I wanted to clear up the confusion of why younger users shouldn't use AAS instead of using a copy and pasted script to give a vague explanation. OP should use an AAS, it's what they are made for. You don't need to run bodybuilding doses, because you aren't bodybuilding. I can find literature for you OP if you want additional information on how to proceed. Also, connective tissue won't be an issue. You are looking to get back to normal right? Not superstrength..

Nandrolone would be a good compound for you, the downside would be the long shutdown because certain metabolites take months to clear. But it doesn't bind strongly to the AR yet yields good anabolism. Anavar would be better though.

I'm not having this argument with you again.

Kiddies....DON'T listen to him. I'm walking prof that messing with pro hormones at a young age can get you a ticket to spend the rest of your life on TRT.

[Sworder]

I don't even recall having an "argument" with you before. There is nothing to argue either as you are not contributing with anything but admitting foolish prohormone/AAS use which you believe resulted in TRT. I am sure you aren't aware that HPTA restoration from AAS use is highly reversible.

Doctors need to be extremely cautious when prescribing nandrolone or anavar to patients under the age of 9-12. <- Read FDA prescribing information. Epiphyseal maturation needs to be monitored every 6 months when supplementing to patients whom haven't reached with their peak height. There are several stages in which the body and endocrine system develops: pre-pubertal, pubertal, and post-pubertal. Note, crazy bb doses shouldn't be used by anybody unless they are willing to make sacrifices. You can get good gains from just 20mg anavar/day. Look at the bodybuilders back in the day, they didn't run all this gear that we are doing now. Be smart with your choices.

I am NOT recommending AAS use for young people for two reasons: 1. They probably don't have enough knowledge on how to manipulate hormones without minimizing adverse effects. 2. They aren't close to their genetic potential. (the maturation argument is futile and unsupported, rage as much as you want but that is a fact)

OP is the medical example of why AAS are used.

OP should disregard any bodybuilding advice he has gotten in this thread and resort to medical advice. In which anavar or nandrolone would be supplemented. I doubt any knowledgeable member if they would take the role of "doctor" would seriously say run 300mg Test C and Anavar for muscle wasting. This is not in the best interest of the patient as testosterone in supraphysiological doses are damaging to the HPTA because of their androgenic properties. Why do you think that anavar/nandrolone are prescribed? Because they are the best drugs for growth(trenbolone is)? No, because they have higher anabolic traits than androgenic specific tissue stimulation. The latter being very undesirable and the advice in this thread says "USE A LOT OF TESTOSTERONE" no doctor would support that.

Please refrain from yelling out "don't listen to him" when your argument doesn't have any substrate. This forum is for everybody to express their opinion, mine being heavily based on evidence. Yours being on a poor decision you made earlier in your life. If you want to discuss how MRIs have photographed and noticed damage on pituitary damage caused by AAS go ahead. Oh yeah, it doesn't exist.

[gymfu]

I don't even recall having an "argument" with you before. There is nothing to argue either as you are not contributing with anything but admitting foolish prohormone/AAS use which you believe resulted in TRT. I am sure you aren't aware that HPTA restoration from AAS use is highly reversible.

Doctors need to be extremely cautious when prescribing nandrolone or anavar to patients under the age of 9-12. <- Read FDA prescribing information. Epiphyseal maturation needs to be monitored every 6 months when supplementing to patients whom haven't reached with their peak height. There are several stages in which the body and endocrine system develops: pre-pubertal, pubertal, and post-pubertal. Note, crazy bb doses shouldn't be used by anybody unless they are willing to make sacrifices. You can get good gains from just 20mg anavar/day. Look at the bodybuilders back in the day, they didn't run all this gear that we are doing now. Be smart with your choices.

I am NOT recommending AAS use for young people for two reasons: 1. They probably don't have enough knowledge on how to manipulate hormones without minimizing adverse effects. 2. They aren't close to their genetic potential. (the maturation argument is futile and unsupported, rage as much as you want but that is a fact)

OP is the medical example of why AAS are used.

OP should disregard any bodybuilding advice he has gotten in this thread and resort to medical advice. In which anavar or nandrolone would be supplemented. I doubt any knowledgeable member if they would take the role of "doctor" would seriously say run 300mg Test C and Anavar for muscle wasting. This is not in the best interest of the patient as testosterone in supraphysiological doses are damaging to the HPTA because of their androgenic properties. Why do you think that anavar/nandrolone are prescribed? Because they are the best drugs for growth(trenbolone is)? No, because they have higher anabolic traits than androgenic specific tissue stimulation. The latter being very undesirable and the advice in this thread says "USE A LOT OF TESTOSTERONE" no doctor would support that.

Please refrain from yelling out "don't listen to him" when your argument doesn't have any substrate. This forum is for everybody to express their opinion, mine being heavily based on evidence. Yours being on a poor decision you made earlier in your life. If you want to discuss how MRIs have photographed and noticed damage on pituitary damage caused by AAS go ahead. Oh yeah, it doesn't exist.

So everyone else here is wrong and you have some enlightened knowledge. My testosterone was down to 400 at 30. This was years after I used any prohormones.

After doing two cycles and months of PCT I couldn't get it above 110! I'm sure it was from that. No history of it in my family.

So my position does have "substrate". It's called personal experience. All your doing is finding crap on the Internet. I could find articles telling us the sky is green on the Internet.

I didn't tell the op he shouldn't touch AAS I said hgh would be a safer way to go. It could get him to his goals without messing with his HPTA.

I'm done here time to get some sleep.

[Bonaparte]

In which anavar or nandrolone would be supplemented. I doubt any knowledgeable member if they would take the role of "doctor" would seriously say run 300mg Test C and Anavar for muscle wasting. This is not in the best interest of the patient as testosterone in supraphysiological doses are damaging to the HPTA because of their androgenic properties. Why do you think that anavar/nandrolone are prescribed? Because they are the best drugs for growth(trenbolone is)? No, because they have higher anabolic traits than androgenic specific tissue stimulation. The latter being very undesirable and the advice in this thread says "USE A LOT OF TESTOSTERONE" no doctor would support that.

So you think that it is androgenic value that mainly causes hpta shutdown? It isn't.
Estradiol and 19-nors are FAR more suppressive at the pituitary.
Highly androgenic drugs like proviron , mast, and halo are minimally suppressive. Testosterone is highly suppressive due to the E2 conversion, while 19-nortest is the worst.

What makes you think the OP has to worry about androgenic side effects? He isn't a child or a woman.
Nearly any AAS would work just fine for regaining lost muscle and strength, though it is up to him to choose which side effects he least desires. I don't see anything wrong with a decent dose of test and/or Var. Hell, throw in some Dbol or anadrol if needed. We can argue about which drug would be best, but he's most likely just going to use whatever his doc feels comfortable prescribing.

[Sworder]

Yes, everybody else here is wrong in that HPTA maturation argument. I am not on any "enlightened knowledge" just logic. Think about it yourself, HPTA maturation. At what age does the H and P finish maturing? Probably around the same time when your reproductive organs are done right? Going by visually inspecting your genitals you can tell when they are done developing. That happens at a early age.

Reaching peak conditions are irrelevant as many obese children are suppressed the majority of their life and then at the age of 30-35 they lose the weight and have higher testosterone than they did as a 25 year old while obese. This is an example of suppression not leading to "damage". The peak is genetic as well and you cannot re-write your genes by supplementing with AAS unless you do damage to the HPTA, which I believe highly androgenic compounds do.

You cannot find scholarly articles showing that the sky is green. It's a light spectrum, measurable. I know you are making an example meant to ridicule, you are going to have to find another example. Most of my claims or information are based on empirical data, not from a blog or hear-say.

Why would you continue doing two more cycles? PCT for months?? Right.. It takes a long time to restore your HPTA depending on various factors. Had you been under the supervision of a experienced doctor your results may have been different. What restart protocol did you use? A few months is nothing so you know. Nandrolone decanoate metabolites stay active for longer than that. The information you acquired is very limited and your current situation would have probably been different had you known more about these protocols.

Yes, I agree that hGH supplementation would be "safer" than supraphysiological levels of testosterone . Anavar or nandrolone are used for muscular atrophy and those compounds would be the proper compounds to use. According to the medical community... I guess not to a steroid community giving medical advice. Anavar 20mg/day should suffice. He is not bodybuilding........... And shouldn't be stacking LMAO

[Sworder]

So you think that it is androgenic value that mainly causes hpta shutdown? It isn't.
Estradiol and 19-nors are FAR more suppressive at the pituitary.
Highly androgenic drugs like proviron , mast, and halo are minimally suppressive. Testosterone is highly suppressive due to the E2 conversion, while 19-nortest is the worst.

What makes you think the OP has to worry about androgenic side effects? He isn't a child or a woman.
Nearly any AAS would work just fine for regaining lost muscle and strength, though it is up to him to choose which side effects he least desires. I don't see anything wrong with a decent dose of test and/or Var. Hell, throw in some Dbol or anadrol if needed. We can argue about which drug would be best, but he's most likely just going to use whatever his doc feels comfortable prescribing.

I don't think I even mentioned suppression or shutdown?

I have stated that I believe that too much androgenic activity causes damage. This is merely a personal belief.

Also, activating androgen specific tissue at too young of an age can be detrimental and should be avoidable. Why do you think trenbolone isn't used in humans? It's great for muscle wasting wouldn't you agree? But it's too androgenic.