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Thread: Why the hate?? -- Oral Only cycle?!?

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Why the hate?? -- Oral Only cycle?!?

    Seems long but worth the read IMO.



    First of all, I ask to not be flamed because of my age and be judge by what I say and not about your prejudices about young man.
    And if I say anything scientifically wrong or that doesnt make sense at all. PLZ TELL ME! I'm here to learn...

    Ok, I think everyones here agree that on this forum, oral only cycle are strongly NOT advised.
    And I see many people talking against oral cycle with no or little explanation.
    Don't take me wrong, I also see many members saying tons of clear and great info about why not to do an oral only cycle.

    However, I don't think an oral cycle should have that bad of a reputation and even should have an important place in our community.

    I'll analyze each aspect I know one by one to try to makes you UNDERSTAND(not agree) my point.

    Recovery

    First, I've been answered in another thread that shorter cycle are easier to recover from longer one.
    I personally agree with that statement, and it makes perfect sense.
    In the same circumstance, 6 weeks will be easier to recover than 12 weeks.
    Oral only cycle often last 4-6 weeks may last 8 weeks. so on the recovery part, it should be easier than a test only 12 weeks cycle.


    Second, on the same thread, I've been answered that partial shutdown will be easier to recover than complete shutdown.
    Once again, it make sense... Being shutdown at 50% (we still produce lh-fsh) will be easier to recover that if we do not produce these hormones anymore.

    Ok, what's determine if, in theory, be supressed or shutdown??

    1. The amount of aas used: more = faster supression
    2. The duration: Longer it last the harder(longer) it will be to recover


    So, that's said. Take a look at different oral cycle often asked.

    Anavar only: the average dose is 50mg daily so 350mg/weeks (Medium)
    Average time: 6weeks(Short)

    Winstrol only:Average dose: 50mg daily so 350mg/weeks (Medium)
    Average time: 4-6 weeks(Short)

    D-bol only: Average dose: 25-50mg daily so 175-350mg/weeks (Low-Medium)
    Average time: 4-6 weeks (Short)

    Anadrol only: Average dose:50-100mg daily so 350-700mg/weeks (Medium-High)
    Average time: 4-6 weeks (Short)


    Note aside: I've read the post of Atomini(I think) about low dose anavar causing 70% supression in one weeks. It a really big supression. However, MANY MANY MANY people have done anavar only and were feeling fine. Everyone is different, maybe the guy on who they've done that studies was hypersensitive or I don't know. But It's strange that anavar is given to children if it have so much effect on the pituary... Plus, many people who have tried it alone feel ok.
    I'M NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T SUPRESSED!! Some people feel ok with low test and still can have hard boner and everything. Some feel lethargic. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. But if the shutdown is REALLY BAD with me, I would like to know... So I will know for sure that ME I'll need test every single time. And if not... Oral cycle may be considered.


    Why not do oral only cycle!!

    It will shut you down!
    Well, we have already been through this. Depends on the individual and, in theory, shouldn't supress that much.

    If you are scared of needle you shouldn't do aas!!!
    Well, for most it's not about a fear, but about convenience. Popping 2-3 pills per day is far less demanding in time and privacy than pinning EOD.
    And like said above, oral only gives a easier recovery.

    You will lose all your gain afterward!!
    Well, no! But yes...
    Not because it's an oral only cycle that you will lose your gain. Losing our gain depends on how we train, how we eat and our current testosterone levels ...
    PCT after oral only or not should lead to a recovery. so testosterone level should be fine. If you eat enough and properly. If you train enough and properly. you should keep all or almost all of your gain.
    Why I said yes... Often, when someone do an oral cycle it's because he is not educated enough(because lets be realistic you won't get the same gain that with injectable). lack of knowledge will lead to losing gain afterward. Plus, if he used D-bol or Anadrol , he will lose tons of water. But in term of muscle, it do no matter if its oral or injectable...

    You won't gain anything from it!!
    Well, We won't get as much at a "real" cycle however we can still have good gain. taking 5 pounds of LBM in 6 weeks is a big amount of muscle!

    You will kill your liver!!!
    Except if you use MASSIVE amount of multiple compound, 4-6 weeks of medium dose shouldn't be of a concern. If still scared of it, buy some liv52, udca or anything else who could help.


    How to plan a good oral only cycle?

    I still think that HCG /nolva/clomid should be used and an AI if you use an compound who convert into estrogen.
    Oral will suppress, so you NEED Pct.
    Your testicle risk atrophy, so HCG is still important...
    AI, keep estrogen in check.

    About the dose you should be able to determine them...


    SO, WHY THE HELL DO ORAL ONLY WHEN WE USE THE SAME ******* COMPOUND THAN A NORMAL ONE??

    Because, shorter and easier on the recovery.

    Yes, we will be suppress during the cycle, but most will feel fine even with half of their testosterone. If you don't, then oral only aren't for you, that's all...


    To conclude, I would like to keep that post civilized. Feel free to comment as long as it stay respectful to everyone.
    And once again, I'm very open-minded so feel free to correct me if I am wrong somewhere.

    Thanks


    Not sorry at all for the long post
    Last edited by qscgugcsq; 05-31-2013 at 05:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Times Roman's Avatar
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    OK.
    So having said all this, what's your point?
    Are you saying it's OK to do an oral only cycle?
    or are you planning to do an oral only cycle?

    You have a couple of obvious flaws in your theory, but want you to answer those questions first.

    Thanks mate!
    ---Roman

  3. #3
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    Yes, I think it's ok to do an oral only cycle if done properly.

    And no I don't plan of doing that soon.

  4. #4
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    This thread should be deleted so younger members don't get the wrong idea

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    Quote Originally Posted by panntastic View Post
    This thread should be deleted so younger members don't get the wrong idea
    I've wrote the pro's and con's I know. And I asked to be corrected if I'm wrong. Tell me where you disagree and what's your opinion on that point and if really it needs to be deleted I'll Edit everything into a blank page. i post this so we could discuss of it.

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    There are loads of posts on oral only cycles

    Read the stickies
    Read the articles about beginners cycles

    You will learn from all of these

  7. #7
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    This guy comes up with the dumbest sh1t.With all your words of wisdon and your lack of lats on that stright back.Please tell us simple minded folk how its done!
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    flaws

    "Second, on the same thread, I've been answered that partial shutdown will be easier to recover than complete shutdown
    1) being partially suppressed is not that common. Almost always, you will be fully suppressed.


    "The amount of aas used: more = more suppression"
    2) more aas does not mean "more suppressed". You are either suppressed, or you are not. Being suppressed means not producing testosterone . How can you be more suppressed if you are already NOT producing testosterone?


    "The androgenic ratio of the compound: more androgenic = more suppression"
    3) where did this come from???

    "Estrogen levels: more estrogen = more suppression"
    4) and this???? or are you just making this stuff up?

    "The duration: Longer it last the bigger the supression will be"
    5) Wrong again. the longer the cycle lasts, the longer it will take to recover back to normal hormonal levels

    I need to stop at this point.

    So take a breath, and please do a rethink on your theories. I think you are a little confused.

    Good luck!
    ---Roman
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    Quote Originally Posted by songdog
    This guy comes up with the dumbest sh1t.With all your words of wisdon and your lack of lats on that stright back.Please tell us simple minded folk how its done!
    Straight to the point
    I like your style

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    flaws

    "Second, on the same thread, I've been answered that partial shutdown will be easier to recover than complete shutdown
    1) being partially suppressed is not that common. Almost always, you will be fully suppressed.


    "The amount of aas used: more = more suppression"
    2) more aas does not mean "more suppressed". You are either suppressed, or you are not. Being suppressed means not producing testosterone . How can you be more suppressed if you are already NOT producing testosterone?


    "The androgenic ratio of the compound: more androgenic = more suppression"
    3) where did this come from???

    "Estrogen levels: more estrogen = more suppression"
    4) and this???? or are you just making this stuff up?

    "The duration: Longer it last the bigger the supression will be"
    5) Wrong again. the longer the cycle lasts, the longer it will take to recover back to normal hormonal levels

    I need to stop at this point.

    So take a breath, and please do a rethink on your theories. I think you are a little confused.

    Good luck!
    ---Roman
    Good job TR I too get tied of this guys bad advice to new guys.And trying to push his point across with no logic.

  11. #11
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    To be fair to the OP it's a very good question and i will try and evaluate a bit.
    From MY experience which is about 6-7 oral only cycles and that's vast amounts of dianabol and anadrol . This was when I first delved into the bid world of AAS.
    I didn't want to touch needles because of the stigma attached to 'roid heads' so that's why I started on pills.
    At the time I got great results (ha great results what an idiot) I blew up like a balloon thinking it was great. Obvious water retention but never the less I looked bigger and when starting AAS and still niece that's all you want.

    But back to the OP I do think that oral only cycles could be possible BUT ONLY with very regular blood work, liver and kidney values etc
    Suppression/shutdown on orals IMO is very person to person and going by how you feel is Bulls**t. You might feel ok but have major issues inside.

    IMO doing oral only cycles is possible but shows an immaturity to the whole point of AAS in general. I agree with if your not prepared to inject then you have no business dealing with AAS. This is a lifestyle and everything that comes with it needs the upmost respect ESPECIALLY steroid use , correct use.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    flaws

    "Second, on the same thread, I've been answered that partial shutdown will be easier to recover than complete shutdown
    1) being partially suppressed is not that common. Almost always, you will be fully suppressed.


    "The amount of aas used: more = more suppression"
    2) more aas does not mean "more suppressed". You are either suppressed, or you are not. Being suppressed means not producing testosterone . How can you be more suppressed if you are already NOT producing testosterone?


    "The androgenic ratio of the compound: more androgenic = more suppression"
    3) where did this come from???

    "Estrogen levels: more estrogen = more suppression"
    4) and this???? or are you just making this stuff up?

    "The duration: Longer it last the bigger the supression will be"
    5) Wrong again. the longer the cycle lasts, the longer it will take to recover back to normal hormonal levels

    I need to stop at this point.

    So take a breath, and please do a rethink on your theories. I think you are a little confused.

    Good luck!
    ---Roman
    Thanks alot for your enlightning.

    1) I meant like being at 50% of his normal testosterone production instead of 100%.
    Interesting, however I do not feel comfortable with that Idea... I mean being fully suppress for me means you don't produce testosterone anymore or minimal amount. I though that was less common than just being partially suppress... You can be suppress to different levels right??? once you are shutdown now you can't be more shutdown, this is obvious.

    2) I think I just express myself wrong on that one. Like said above, I meant like losing 50% of our production instead of 30% etc. I don't think we completely shutdown the same day that we start. It go progressively.

    3)Yeah that One I jsut though it was making sense I jsut shouldnt haev include this one without any further research XD

    4) That one I've read it in my medical book, I may be totally wrong I'll go check again and come back with it.

    5) once again I express myself wrong, but the point is still there. (english is not my native language obviously) so sometime I'm not that clear.

    I'll edit and check again the 4.

    Thanks for your comment.

  13. #13
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    Oral only cycles can be done.

    I mean, look at BJJs anavar only log. The proof is right there. He had amazing gains with 60mgs of anavar only.

    And holy shit, give the OP some breathing room.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsiv View Post
    To be fair to the OP it's a very good question and i will try and evaluate a bit.
    From MY experience which is about 6-7 oral only cycles and that's vast amounts of dianabol and anadrol . This was when I first delved into the bid world of AAS.
    I didn't want to touch needles because of the stigma attached to 'roid heads' so that's why I started on pills.
    At the time I got great results (ha great results what an idiot) I blew up like a balloon thinking it was great. Obvious water retention but never the less I looked bigger and when starting AAS and still niece that's all you want.

    But back to the OP I do think that oral only cycles could be possible BUT ONLY with very regular blood work, liver and kidney values etc
    Suppression/shutdown on orals IMO is very person to person and going by how you feel is Bulls**t. You might feel ok but have major issues inside.

    IMO doing oral only cycles is possible but shows an immaturity to the whole point of AAS in general. I agree with if your not prepared to inject then you have no business dealing with AAS. This is a lifestyle and everything that comes with it needs the upmost respect ESPECIALLY steroid use, correct use.
    Thanks for that comments.

    I would like to know what you mean by "issue inside". What's the real difference between using oral only versus test+oral. Yes, you will be suppressed and losing some libido and diminish the quantity of free test you have.
    however, how is lowering our test for 6 week may be more harmful than overpowering it for 10-12 weeks??
    More is like not enough... is it?
    Last edited by qscgugcsq; 05-31-2013 at 01:41 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMB View Post
    Oral only cycles can be done.

    I mean, look at BJJs anavar only log. The proof is right there. He had amazing gains with 60mgs of anavar only.

    And holy shit, give the OP some breathing room.
    I've read his log, great read.

    That's a reason why I'm interested in why people hate it so much.

    Thanks

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by songdog View Post
    This guy comes up with the dumbest sh1t.With all your words of wisdon and your lack of lats on that stright back.Please tell us simple minded folk how its done!
    You have the right to have your opinion and I respect your knowledge, however I also have right to my opinion and that post wasn't about "I know shit listen me". It was about "That's how I understand shit Enlight me".

    You have the right to disagree You are experienced and I am not. I won't question your knowledge but I'll question your attitude. If you know that much, explain, help us to understand when we seek for answers.

    You are not proving us than you know things. I respect TR, because He share his knowledge with respect.

    A little bit of modesty would gives you the capacity to gives great comment...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMB View Post
    Oral only cycles can be done.

    I mean, look at BJJs anavar only log. The proof is right there. He had amazing gains with 60mgs of anavar only.

    And holy shit, give the OP some breathing room.
    But your still a kid under age and it isnt safe.I have read of gains on var.But in the end you are shut down and not replaceing it with test.You got to think of your body after the gains and after the cycle.Bottom line op thinks this is a safe cycle for the underaged.He dont rate breathing room on that.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    flaws

    "Estrogen levels: more estrogen = more suppression"
    4) and this???? or are you just making this stuff up?

    Good luck!
    ---Roman
    Yeah, you are right, I confused 2 systems of retro-inhibition. I've already edited, it. Thanks

    I have already very appreciated your answers and would like to be proved wrong again XD.

    Do you see any other obvious flaw? or the rest seems to have sense?
    Last edited by qscgugcsq; 05-31-2013 at 01:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qscgugcsq

    Thanks for that comments.

    I would like to know what you mean by "issue inside". What's the real difference between using oral only versus test+oral. Yes, you will be suppressed and losing some libido and diminish the quantity of free test you have.
    however, how is lowering our test for 6 week may be more harmful than overpowering it for 10-12 weeks??
    More is like not enough... is it?
    Yeah I should have been clearer by issues inside......I was referring to your OP when you mentioned guys doing anavar and 'feeling fine' which IMO is bull because allthough you may 'feel fine' you may have underlying problems with liver, kidney, blood pressure etc etc

    Let me tell you we all know oral only can be done. Safely? Maybe? But after all my own experience you can shove orals. Especially dbol . I have done shit loads and after the years I realise the water retention, blood pressure and fake gains are just not worth it, and that's the bottom line.
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  20. #20
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    Actually, most of what the OP posted is true.

    My main issue with using orals (or anything else) with no test base is the lethargy and loss of libido. It makes using steroids miserable, so why do it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonaparte View Post
    Actually, most of what the OP posted is true.

    My main issue with using orals (or anything else) with no test base is the lethargy and loss of libido. It makes using steroids miserable, so why do it?
    Agreed, but it depends so much and my biggest point with all this was: Try it to know it...
    Oral only are convenient and if you think you could like to do so then try it. some may feel lethargic and them should always have a base. and alot may feel ok with low test.

    I pass some BW 8 months ago: 370 Pmol/L of free test(low test due to high SHBG).
    I had low libido difficulty to keep it hard, no motivation, incapacity to gain at the gym.

    when I saw that I started vitD-ZMA-TGH boost(test booster) in 1 month I went to 480pmol/L. And still it's low for my age but was already feeling lot better with good boner and everything.

    One of my friend went on TRT at 430 pmol/L because he was depressed(steroid related for him).

    So it depends on everyone, some may support to be shutdown, others can't.

    So by trying it we know it... if the lethargy come up then PCT or add test to continue the cycle.
    If it doesn't show up then we are good to go.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsiv View Post
    Yeah I should have been clearer by issues inside......I was referring to your OP when you mentioned guys doing anavar and 'feeling fine' which IMO is bull because allthough you may 'feel fine' you may have underlying problems with liver, kidney, blood pressure etc etc

    Let me tell you we all know oral only can be done. Safely? Maybe? But after all my own experience you can shove orals. Especially dbol. I have done shit loads and after the years I realise the water retention, blood pressure and fake gains are just not worth it, and that's the bottom line.
    Agreed It may cause many bad side effect. However, that is d-bol and anadrol . The are well known for their water retention... Winstrol and anavar are different. These won't increase the BP(Even I think they will lower it...) More pump, and drying...
    Liver... same concern as with oral during injectable cycle.
    Kidney... same thing.

    And anyway these issues are still a concern with injectable
    That's why I advise to use an AI if d-bol and anadrol are used. to limit the water retention and other unwanted side effect.

    That's for these reason I think there is no difference between injectable and oral except for the shutdown part.

  23. #23
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    If someone doesn't want to use needles and wants to do an oral only cycle, why not at least add a topical test prep or andriol . It's not that I think this is a particularly good idea, just that it's better than oral only.
    Last edited by AnabolicDoc; 05-31-2013 at 02:19 PM.

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    We all know that the main reason it's done is because people are scared of needles. Glad you addressed that and overcame the objection with convenience and privacy, yet in closing, you recommend hCG .
    ~ PLEASE DO NOT ASK FOR SOURCE CHECKS ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite
    We all know that the main reason it's done is because people are scared of needles. Glad you addressed that and overcame the objection with convenience and privacy, yet in closing, you recommend hCG.
    Good pick up Austinite lol missed that

  26. #26
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    Sub-q is different than IM.
    Plus HCG we can easely fill the syringe in advance.

    But it is not recommended with oil based compound.

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    That does not overcome your stated objection.
    ~ PLEASE DO NOT ASK FOR SOURCE CHECKS ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    That does not overcome your stated objection.
    I personally don't care about injection and I find SubQ easy as hell. it may be convenient by, like I stated above, filling the syringe 1-2 week in advance. and about privacy it's a bit more tricky but that's not the point. HCG is not needed. but it's highly recommanded. I was naming some issue people may encounter. some aren't scared at all of needle they just don't want to pin. Some are scared of being caught, some thing its just more convenient. Some may think all of the above(in that case they are pretty much screwed...).

    If you read carefully you will notice that I said alot of contradictory things. but they are all explainable by different situation.

    If someone is scared as hell of needle. (even subQ) then he just have to drop the HCG. but he have to deal with it...

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    Easy or not, it does not overcome your objection. Furthermore, it still falls into your "category" of privacy and convenience. Even worse than AAS actually. Why backtrack now and say it's not the point? It's your point in the original post. Doesn't seem like you want to backup your own theories.

    Anyway... regardless of hepatotoxicity and shut down, cycling without testosterone is amateur at best. Maybe spend more time researching benefits of testosterone on cycle and less time trying to debunk it. And your gains (indirectly) will be hindered because you're not in the right state of mind and inevitably your performance will be lacking. That's not something you can overcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    Easy or not, it does not overcome your objection. Furthermore, it still falls into your "category" of privacy and convenience. Even worse than AAS actually. Why backtrack now and say it's not the point? It's your point in the original post. Doesn't seem like you want to backup your own theories.

    Anyway... regardless of hepatotoxicity and shut down, cycling without testosterone is amateur at best. Maybe spend more time researching benefits of testosterone on cycle and less time trying to debunk it. And your gains (indirectly) will be hindered because you're not in the right state of mind and inevitably your performance will be lacking. That's not something you can overcome.
    My statement saying, "its not the point" was about how to deal with HCG . I didnt made this post to find a way to hide HCG in the fridge from our GF... I recommend HCG because it helps to the recovery and thats one of the main objective to oral only cycle.

    Dealing with Oral and HCG is more convenient than aas.

    And maybe I express myself wrong but I never meant to "backtrack" my original post. all I said fit with my original post. Hcg is recommended but may be removed on some circumstance, in the same way that Hcg may be remove of an injectable cycle, if the needed to remove it comes up. It is not recommended but can be done.

    Now, a perfect exemple of what I don't understand...
    "Cycling without testosterone is amateur at best.": Why so?? Someone able to handle shutdown, who is looking for more discreet gain may consider an oral only cycle. It is not amateur, nor testosterone is more mature... How many, people do we see using crazy amount of test with any other injectable with no AI,HCG or PCT?? Not because someone use injectable that he is more knowledgeable than the one with pills.

    I agree that having a testosterone as base is LOT more suitable for everybody and reread if needed but not once I said that testosterone base was worst and/or less efficient. On the contrary, I clearly said that gain would be clearly better with testosterone.

    The advantage of testosterone are undeniable. But oral cycle have a really bad reputation.
    They have a bad opinion to you for the same reason that other people have a bad opinion about steroids in general. Because they think it's the easy and immature way to do things. What I am trying to say is what's the point of ALWAYS say no to oral cycle, when their is a way to run that properly.

    Oral only are far from optimal, but for some people may be a good alternative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qscgugcsq View Post
    My statement saying, "its not the point" was about how to deal with HCG . I didnt made this post to find a way to hide HCG in the fridge from our GF... I recommend HCG because it helps to the recovery and thats one of the main objective to oral only cycle.

    Dealing with Oral and HCG is more convenient than aas.

    And maybe I express myself wrong but I never meant to "backtrack" my original post. all I said fit with my original post. Hcg is recommended but may be removed on some circumstance, in the same way that Hcg may be remove of an injectable cycle, if the needed to remove it comes up. It is not recommended but can be done.

    Now, a perfect exemple of what I don't understand...
    "Cycling without testosterone is amateur at best.": Why so?? Someone able to handle shutdown, who is looking for more discreet gain may consider an oral only cycle. It is not amateur, nor testosterone is more mature... How many, people do we see using crazy amount of test with any other injectable with no AI,HCG or PCT?? Not because someone use injectable that he is more knowledgeable than the one with pills.

    I agree that having a testosterone as base is LOT more suitable for everybody and reread if needed but not once I said that testosterone base was worst and/or less efficient. On the contrary, I clearly said that gain would be clearly better with testosterone.

    The advantage of testosterone are undeniable. But oral cycle have a really bad reputation.
    They have a bad opinion to you for the same reason that other people have a bad opinion about steroids in general. Because they think it's the easy and immature way to do things. What I am trying to say is what's the point of ALWAYS say no to oral cycle, when their is a way to run that properly.

    Oral only are far from optimal, but for some people may be a good alternative.
    Bad rep for good reason. Good alternative? I think it's a weak-minded alternative.

    If you agree that the advantages are undeniable and cycling with a test base is better, then basically what you're saying is... "It's OK to half-ass your way through a cycle". That's where weak minded comes in. Probably the same folks that plan to do do a full workout routine and end up going home halfway through because they're a little achy.

    The idea is garbage, any which way you look at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    Bad rep for good reason. Good alternative? I think it's a weak-minded alternative.

    If you agree that the advantages are undeniable and cycling with a test base is better, then basically what you're saying is... "It's OK to half-ass your way through a cycle". That's where weak minded comes in. Probably the same folks that plan to do do a full workout routine and end up going home halfway through because they're a little achy.

    The idea is garbage, any which way you look at it.
    Well, so your argument against oral cycle is why doing half the job when you could have the total package with testosterone thats it??

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    I thought a lot of the points qscgugcsq made were pretty interesting. I don't understand why he received so much flak. I am relatively new here though, so maybe something happened in the past. I definitely agree with austinite in that most people who choose to do oral-only cycles are afraid of needles or the stigma of being a "juice head" like qscgugcsq said, even though that is hypocritical because steroids are steroids. I have a friend who did oral-only cycles because he was afraid of needles. I believe a big problem with oral-only cycles is the lack of research one may put into it because of the misconception that they "aren't as bad for you"; although we see a lot of foolish people who jump into injectable AAS without the appropriate research too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    We all know that the main reason it's done is because people are scared of needles. Glad you addressed that and overcame the objection with convenience and privacy, yet in closing, you recommend hCG.
    I wasn't sure if this was directed towards me. But it's funny I don't think of hcg as a shot. With a 30-gauge needle, I barely feel it. And for sometime now they have been making insulin needles as small as 35 gauge, which I only assume can be used for hcg.

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    I believe the hepatotoxicity of oral steroids is more than enough to choose testosterone regardless if you can take liv52. Also testosterone is what our bodies are accustomed to, so I believe our bodies will respond better to testosterone than something like winstrol .

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    Quote Originally Posted by qscgugcsq View Post
    Well, so your argument against oral cycle is why doing half the job when you could have the total package with testosterone thats it??
    Are you really that dense? You dug yourself in a hole with this thread because you can't overcome your own objections, and you stated yourself that test base would be better. I don't need to justify anything. You do. The conversation moved from one point to another, so my last statement was a response to the last mindless points you made. Not a an argument in it's entirety. I don't feel like being repetitive in the same thread. You got reasons from several members, add them up yourself.

    You stated that better to use test, so I repeated what you said and rephrased it properly. Good thread idea, garbage follow ups.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicDoc View Post
    I wasn't sure if this was directed towards me. But it's funny I don't think of hcg as a shot. With a 30-gauge needle, I barely feel it. And for sometime now they have been making insulin needles as small as 35 gauge, which I only assume can be used for hcg.
    Not directed at you at all. I don't think it's a big deal either. But guess what every single new user thinks? A needle is a needle and they don't like it until they realize it's no big deal. Hey.. I don't want to inject either if I didn't need to.
    ~ PLEASE DO NOT ASK FOR SOURCE CHECKS ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    flaws

    "Second, on the same thread, I've been answered that partial shutdown will be easier to recover than complete shutdown
    1) being partially suppressed is not that common. Almost always, you will be fully suppressed.


    "The amount of aas used: more = more suppression"
    2) more aas does not mean "more suppressed". You are either suppressed, or you are not. Being suppressed means not producing testosterone . How can you be more suppressed if you are already NOT producing testosterone?


    "The androgenic ratio of the compound: more androgenic = more suppression"
    3) where did this come from???

    "Estrogen levels: more estrogen = more suppression"
    4) and this???? or are you just making this stuff up?

    "The duration: Longer it last the bigger the supression will be"
    5) Wrong again. the longer the cycle lasts, the longer it will take to recover back to normal hormonal levels

    I need to stop at this point.

    So take a breath, and please do a rethink on your theories. I think you are a little confused.

    Good luck!
    ---Roman
    Hey TR, nice response. I read the OP on my phone and was just waiting for someone to respond. But one thing, in regards to this:
    "Estrogen levels: more estrogen = more suppression"
    my understanding is that estrogen is about 200x as suppressive to the HPTA as testosterone. So I thought there was so validity to his statement, just oversimplified.

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    I enjoy receiving oral only sometimes sometimes I'm just to tired to do the whole deal , oops that kind of oral, no thanks. Lol
    Last edited by Dougiefresh7707; 06-01-2013 at 01:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qscgugcsq View Post
    Well, so your argument against oral cycle is why doing half the job when you could have the total package with testosterone thats it??
    I think that is a very good reason to not do oral steroids . Whether people want to admit or not, there are risks associated with AAS. Even if you wait until your endocrine system is completely developed and you take the appropriate amount of time researching AAS, dialing your diet and workout down, etc.; the reality is you are still messing with your hormones and endocrine system. The health risks are light-years away from what society will typically have you believe, but they still exist.

    Upon accepting this fact, you are then dealt with a risk-reward scenario. If one is willing to risk altering his/her hormones and the health effects that may come with it, one will typically expect great things. If taking steroids would only lead to an increase of 6 ounces of muscle mass, most (hopefully all) people would never do them because the risks far outweigh the rewards. In this case you just said that oral and injectable cycles have the same risks, so why in the hell would you elect the option that leads to LESS gains and rewards? It just doesn't logically follow.
    Last edited by basketballfan22; 05-31-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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