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Thread: cutting cycle critique

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    Question cutting cycle critique

    stats


    24 (25 by the time i start this cycle)
    6 ft
    95 kg (209 lbs)
    19%bf ish
    3 years training exp
    1 previous test cycle (February '13), and a few clen cycles




    plan:


    week 1-6 test prop 100mg EOD
    week 1-6 Adex .25mg EOD
    week 1-6 T3 ED (not sure on dosage, maybe 150 mcg, thinking week 1 increase dosage until i get to 150 mcg, week 6 taper off..)
    week 1-6 clen 120 mcg ED
    week 3-6 keto 2mg ED (is this how your supposed to use it??)


    week 7-10 PCT (3 days after last pin)
    torem 120/60/60/60
    tamox 40/20/20/20


    i was thinking might extend it to 8 weeks.. but 6 weeks on a calorie deficit will be challenge enough..
    thinking of adding in some var.. but that may be overkill.. thoughts??
    since the T3 is catabolic, is 100mg of test prop EOD enough to conteract this??
    also i will be cutting down to 90 kg natty before starting this cycle, aiming for 85 kg


    thanks

    kronik

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    I wouldn't run T3 that high. Maybe 100mcg tops. I'd also bump the Prop to 75mg ED.

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    thanks marty

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    I've run T3 up to 140 mcg before and I wanted to eat everything. Which is kinda counter productive to leaning out. Lol My sweet spot is between 80 - 100 mcg a day. No need to taper off when done

    Eat meticulous, train ridiculous for best results.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by evander87 View Post
    I've run T3 up to 140 mcg before and I wanted to eat everything. Which is kinda counter productive to leaning out. Lol My sweet spot is between 80 - 100 mcg a day. No need to taper off when done

    Eat meticulous, train ridiculous for best results.
    i think i read somewhere that you should taper off of T3?? i know you dont have to with clen ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronik420 View Post
    i think i read somewhere that you should taper off of T3?? i know you dont have to with clen..
    NO you dont!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by songdog View Post
    NO you dont!!!!!
    ok thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronik420 View Post
    stats


    24 (25 by the time i start this cycle)
    6 ft
    95 kg (209 lbs)
    19%bf ish
    3 years training exp
    1 previous test cycle (February '13), and a few clen cycles




    plan:


    week 1-6 test prop 100mg EOD
    week 1-6 Adex .25mg EOD
    week 1-6 T3 ED (not sure on dosage, maybe 150 mcg, thinking week 1 increase dosage until i get to 150 mcg, week 6 taper off..)
    week 1-6 clen 120 mcg ED
    week 3-6 keto 2mg ED (is this how your supposed to use it??)


    week 7-10 PCT (3 days after last pin)
    torem 120/60/60/60
    tamox 40/20/20/20


    i was thinking might extend it to 8 weeks.. but 6 weeks on a calorie deficit will be challenge enough..
    thinking of adding in some var.. but that may be overkill.. thoughts??
    since the T3 is catabolic, is 100mg of test prop EOD enough to conteract this??
    also i will be cutting down to 90 kg natty before starting this cycle, aiming for 85 kg


    thanks

    kronik
    I would bump your adex to everyday.

    I would start with 1mg/day with the keto.

    I would agree with T3, don't go higher then 100mcg/day.

    Some var would be a nice addition, at 80mg/day.

    Your diet will have more to do with your results then anything else. Train HARD, lots of giant sets, post workout cardio, keep your carbs below 75/day and none after within 5hrs of bed time.

    You should make great gains being at 19%, getting down to 10% should be do-able.

    Let us know how it goes.

  9. #9
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    thanks for the input

    so new plan is:

    week 1-6 test prop 100mg EOD
    week 1-6 anavar 60mg ED
    week 1-6 Adex .25mg EOD
    week 1-6 clen 120mcg ED
    week 1-6 T3 100mcg ED
    week 3-6 keto 1mg ED

    week 7-10 PCT (3 days after last pin)
    torem 120/60/60/60
    tamox 40/20/20/20

  10. #10
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    That's a lot of T3. I would start with 25mcg the first few days and slowly increase. 100mcg T3 (with no T4) is about double the total daily thyroid production of a large male. Tapering is not a must but many find the transition easier if you taper bc your thyroid will stop making hormone and your hypothalamus and pituitary will stop stimulating it while taking exogenous thyroid hormone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicDoc View Post
    That's a lot of T3. I would start with 25mcg the first few days and slowly increase. 100mcg T3 (with no T4) is about double the total daily thyroid production of a large male. Tapering is not a must but many find the transition easier if you taper bc your thyroid will stop making hormone and your hypothalamus and pituitary will stop stimulating it while taking exogenous thyroid hormone.
    Doc, whats your opinion on taking t3/4 and clen at the same time?

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    I like the cycle my question is would tren fit in there in place of something?? I get ridiculous gains from tren..

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    Quote Originally Posted by AD View Post

    Doc, whats your opinion on taking t3/4 and clen at the same time?
    Bc of clen 's potential (and that of all thermogenics) to decrease thyroid function and "downregulate" metabolism, it reasons that supplementing with thyroid hormone while on clen is a good idea. Personally I just don't think clen works well for everyone. If someone is going to add thyroid hormone to their stack they need to take a certain dose bc the thyroid will self adjust in up to 6 weeks.

    The normal replacement dose for a young (< 60yrs) healthy person of synthroid /T4 is 1.7mcg per kg, so dosing at 2mcg per kg is ideal IMO as part of a weight loss/cutting stack. T3 is 4x as potent as T4, so the replacement dose calculates to 0.43mcg per kg and 0.5mcg per kg for a weight loss/cutting stack. Of course this should only be temporary bc the long term effects of hyperthyroidism are significant and many.

    I posted this in another thread recently but I think an ideal base stack for cutting would be moderate dose test (500mg/wk), hgh (> 4iu per day, 5 to 7 days per wk), and T3 (25mcg 2x per day, assuming you weigh 100kg, and start at 12.5 2x per day). Add to this tren and/or anavar and and the results should be significantly more dramatic. Tren no doubt greatly increases nitrogen retention even in calorie deficient states and will allow the addition of LBM while cutting, while weight loss on anavar has been shown to be permanent in most individuals.

    Before everyone attacks me, the fact that cutting is achieved primarily through dieting, well that goes wo say and the focus above is on pharmacological enhancement.
    Last edited by AnabolicDoc; 06-14-2013 at 09:32 AM. Reason: typo, clarification
    kronik420 and D2'd like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huggy008 View Post
    I like the cycle my question is would tren fit in there in place of something?? I get ridiculous gains from tren..
    im saving tren for a future cycle..

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronik420
    thanks for the input

    so new plan is:

    week 1-6 test prop 100mg EOD
    week 1-6 anavar 60mg ED
    week 1-6 Adex .25mg EOD
    week 1-6 clen 120mcg ED
    week 1-6 T3 100mcg ED
    week 3-6 keto 1mg ED

    week 7-10 PCT (3 days after last pin)
    torem 120/60/60/60
    tamox 40/20/20/20
    You can extend that to 8 weeks no problem. TBH you could probably eat at maintenance (or only 200 cals under) and, with the right macro split, could have an awesome recomposition.

    Maybe up the var to 80-90mg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back In Black View Post
    You can extend that to 8 weeks no problem. TBH you could probably eat at maintenance (or only 200 cals under) and, with the right macro split, could have an awesome recomposition.

    Maybe up the var to 80-90mg.
    will probably end up extending to 8 weeks, and upping the var sounds like a good idea too

    was going to restrict diet to about 2000 kcals, that's about 400 under maintenance for me..

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    Well, I can tell you that I ate at maintenance whilst using var and only a TRT dose of test and I stayed the same weight but I reckon I dropped, in 4 weeks, 3-4 lbs of fat. If you are adding clen in there too then 400 below might be too low. I was doing 4x per week cardio too.

    Obviously you need to work out what works for you best but it may be an idea to do that deficit of 400cals for the first 2-3 weeks until your var and test is fully kicked in then move to a maintenance diet.

    2400cals sounds pretty low for your maintenance, have you been eating at that to know its correct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicDoc View Post

    Bc of clen's potential (and that of all thermogenics) to decrease thyroid function and "downregulate" metabolism, it reasons that supplementing with thyroid hormone while on clen is a good idea. Personally I just don't think clen works well for everyone. If someone is going to add thyroid hormone to their stack they need to take a certain dose bc the thyroid will self adjust in up to 6 weeks.
    Thanks Doc.

    I was initially worried about the risk of developing abnormal heart rhythm since both clen and hyperthyroidism cause increase in heartbeats.

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    Doesn't T4 not convert to T3 in the body?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronik420
    thanks for the input

    so new plan is:

    week 1-6 test prop 100mg EOD
    week 1-6 anavar 60mg ED
    week 1-6 Adex .25mg EOD
    week 1-6 clen 120mcg ED
    week 1-6 T3 100mcg ED
    week 3-6 keto 1mg ED

    week 7-10 PCT (3 days after last pin)
    torem 120/60/60/60
    tamox 40/20/20/20
    I'd use 2mg Keto every night from day one.
    And I'd only go 75mcg on T3, but that's just me.
    Sure while you're at it, take everyone's advice and run it for 8 weeks.
    Last edited by gymsoldier; 06-14-2013 at 08:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AD View Post
    Thanks Doc.

    I was initially worried about the risk of developing abnormal heart rhythm since both clen and hyperthyroidism cause increase in heartbeats.

    I hate to say this (bc it just sounds so dorky) but I am actually glad you mentioned that bc I've been wanting to say something about this. I didn't think anyone was interested. The cells of the heart that are responsible for pacing (heart rate), the pacemaker cells of the SA node and AV node, have on them T3 receptors. Production of excessive or ingestion of excessive exogenous T3 (or T4 which converts to T3) will overstimulate these cells inducing a rapid heart rhythm and possible adverse rapid heart rhythms, most notably atrial fibrillation. This is more likely to occur acutely with ingestion of T3, rather than T4 bc our bodies can more easily compensate for sudden administration of T4 by increasing thyroid-binding globulin, decreasing production of T4, and decreasing conversion of T4 to T3. That is why with T3 I recommend starting low and titrating upwards. In all honesty, I believe that my suggestion of starting with 12.5mcg of T3 2x per day is too high for many, but I don't want to give suggestions that ppl are unlikely to adhere to if I can compromise, so to speak. With that said, 12.5mcg ed, or divided 2x daily, is a much better place to start for the first week. I assure you that with the sudden ingestion of 12.5mcg of T3 daily by young healthy individuals (in the absence of overt hypothyroidism), palpitations will occur to a significant number.
    Last edited by AnabolicDoc; 06-14-2013 at 02:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gymsoldier View Post
    Doesn't T4 not convert to T3 in the body?
    T4 is much less active than T3, and does convert to T3 in the specific cells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AD View Post
    Thanks Doc.

    I was initially worried about the risk of developing abnormal heart rhythm since both clen and hyperthyroidism cause increase in heartbeats.
    Man up! I've had an abnormal heart rhythm forever! But seriously, good to take in consideration, although it's never affected me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    Man up! I've had an abnormal heart rhythm forever! But seriously, good to take in consideration, although it's never affected me.
    What doses of t3 and clen do you combine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicDoc

    , or divided 2x daily.

    Out of Curiosity what's the half life of T3?

    I'm asking because I've noticed I'm very tired during the first half of the day. I take my t3 all in the am. But usually by the afternoon I'm awake. Some one mentioned t3 makes them lethargic. That got me thinking the t3 might be why my butt is dragging in the am. If it has a long half life and I can take it all at once at night it might be able to counteract my trensomnia.

    Eat meticulous, train ridiculous for best results.

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    9 hrs I think. Doc?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicDoc

    T4 is much less active than T3, and does convert to T3 in the specific cells.
    Thanks.

    What would be the equivalent dose of T4 per 1mcg T3? Just out of curiosity.

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    Liothyronine sodium aka Cytomel (synthetic T3) has a half life of 1 day of your thyroid levels are normal. It decreases to about 14.5 hrs if your thyroid levels are high and about 34 hours if levels are low.

    1mcg of T3 = 0.25mcg of T4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Back In Black View Post
    Well, I can tell you that I ate at maintenance whilst using var and only a TRT dose of test and I stayed the same weight but I reckon I dropped, in 4 weeks, 3-4 lbs of fat. If you are adding clen in there too then 400 below might be too low. I was doing 4x per week cardio too.

    Obviously you need to work out what works for you best but it may be an idea to do that deficit of 400cals for the first 2-3 weeks until your var and test is fully kicked in then move to a maintenance diet.

    2400cals sounds pretty low for your maintenance, have you been eating at that to know its correct?
    sorry typo, that would be closer to a 500 cal deficit.. and no, i just use the LBM x 15 formula to calculate TDEE..

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    T3 half life is 2.5 days.
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    I still don't think that's enough adex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gymfu View Post
    I still don't think that's enough adex.
    i used .25mg EOD along side 500mg of test/week... seemed to work fine.. can always increase as needed..

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronik420 View Post
    i used .25mg EOD along side 500mg of test/week... seemed to work fine.. can always increase as needed..
    Have you had bloodwork done while on cycle? Most people don't feel many sides with elevated estrogen levels. You don't want high estrogen while trying to cut.

    I'm telling you this because I always get bloodwork done while on cycle after cycle and before I start a new cycle.

    Recomended arimedex dosages on this board are too low IMO.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gymfu View Post
    Have you had bloodwork done while on cycle? Most people don't feel many sides with elevated estrogen levels. You don't want high estrogen while trying to cut.

    I'm telling you this because I always get bloodwork done while on cycle after cycle and before I start a new cycle.

    Recomended arimedex dosages on this board are too low IMO.
    nope no bloods.. will try and find a doc that will let me get bloods done..

    before i started my first cycle i went to my regular doc and told her what i wanted tested and why, and all she said was "im not going to help you kill yourself" i was like ummm wtf... so never bothered with blood work...

  35. #35
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    what you think? start off at .25mg ED?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyMcFly View Post
    I wouldn't run T3 that high. Maybe 100mcg tops. I'd also bump the Prop to 75mg ED.
    I'm on 100mcg of T3 daily right now. If I go any higher I get super bad cravings for sugars. I don't ever wanna eat candy so I'm attributing it to the T3 since 100mcg seems to be minimal cravings but anything over isn't worth it.

    I would stick with the prop 100 EoD there's no issue with that but to each his own. Var is a nice addition IMO.
    Between the T3 and the Keto your clen should work great for you. I would run the keto 1mg ED from the start I stead of waiting 3 weeks.
    Also, no need to taper the T3 on either end. And pull recover from it when you come off right away so no worries there.
    Your revised plan looks good. I would drop the body fat natty first though. By 5% if possible... That way you'll really appreciate the gains you see!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kronik420 View Post
    what you think? start off at .25mg ED?
    Yes sir, I would start there.

    You don't need a doc for bloodwork. Go to private md labs .com
    Order their male hormone panel, it cost $170 I think. You can google them for discount codes and get 10% off.

    It has everything you need. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiveOn View Post
    I'm on 100mcg of T3 daily right now. If I go any higher I get super bad cravings for sugars. I don't ever wanna eat candy so I'm attributing it to the T3 since 100mcg seems to be minimal cravings but anything over isn't worth it.

    I would stick with the prop 100 EoD there's no issue with that but to each his own. Var is a nice addition IMO.
    Between the T3 and the Keto your clen should work great for you. I would run the keto 1mg ED from the start I stead of waiting 3 weeks.
    Also, no need to taper the T3 on either end. And pull recover from it when you come off right away so no worries there.
    Your revised plan looks good. I would drop the body fat natty first though. By 5% if possible... That way you'll really appreciate the gains you see!
    yea i won't be starting this cycle until i cut down to 90 kg natty first...

    lots of mixed opinions on keto dosages and timings tho... might just try 1mg ED from day 1..

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gymfu View Post
    Yes sir, I would start there.

    You don't need a doc for bloodwork. Go to private md labs .com
    Order their male hormone panel, it cost $170 I think. You can google them for discount codes and get 10% off.

    It has everything you need. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
    already tried the online thing.. can't do it in Australia.. need a doctor to order the blood work...

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kronik420 View Post
    already tried the online thing.. can't do it in Australia.. need a doctor to order the blood work...
    That sux.

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