Prohormone (Epistane) or AAS?

I have been lifting for two years (also lifted in college). Am 35 between about 13 percent bodyfat last time I measured, 5'10 at 180 lbs. I am ready to take it to the next level. Diet is good and I've been tracking everything I eat for 18 months (except for the couple of times I was in Vegas ;).

I've been researching since about October as to what I'm going to do next and am having trouble making up my mind. I'm thinking either Epistane (prohormone) or a newbie cycle based on test, such as that described in the newbie cycles on this site (I cannot post links yet; I'm mostly a lurker).

I tried the LowTestosterone dot com email, but it seems the clinic close to me (Chicago) never opened. I have not had any blood work done yet, but I can have my dr. do it (probably will ask him to at next checkup before I start).

I'm aware of PCT and already have that part figured out regardless of which route I choose.

Any thoughts?

One of my hesitations is the that Epistane is "legal" vs. AAS. Not to mention the needles part of it.

Thanks in advance.

Pro hormones are very liver toxic and are not nearly as effective as AAS. I did a 4 week PH cycle a while back and it was somewhat effective but I have 30 years of lifting experience and a very good base. I am now on my first AAS cycle, Test-E only as recommended by this site's beginner cycles. Injections are no big deal. I was a bit nervous but researched it and if you follow the guidelines it cake. I am following every protocol outlined on this site to a T, AI, HCG, Nola/clomid for PCT. I had no trouble obtaining gear, again read up,follow the rules, and be careful and discrete. I have a post in members cycle results where I am updating my progress every couple of weeks. I am a newb with AAS but this is my 2c.

Thanks for the reply. Makes sense. I think I have some more learning to do. At some point though the analysis paralysis has to stop and I just have to move forward.

From what I've read my next step should probably be to get my bloodwork done. My doctor is pretty good; I don't see a problem there and I get the complete results online. I do need to read up on understanding them though. Anything special I should ask for?

The reason I was looking at Epistane is because it's supposed to be more mild and has some AI properties to it. Still need PCT, but I've read about lots of good (and some bad) experiences with it.

Yes BW is a must but I am not the expert on results. There is an excellent sticky on BW on the forum, search for that. I did a male panel but used a local lab because my Dr is a pain in the ass, looking for a diff doc.

The thing with PH is they will either not work or the will convert to hormones and you will get sides, but either way you can't cycle longer than 4 weeks due to the liver damage they cause so your results won't be as significant, it will cost you as much $ and you will still have to do a full PCT.

Epistane kicks ass bro I can say from expierence that the shit rocks.. But it comes down to ur goals.. If ur looking for a quick recomp ur cut cycle the epistane is ur way to go. Or if ur llooking to bulk up and be on for a bit longer then test. ORRR u could run the epi as ur kickstart to a test cycle!! haha thatd be the best option. Oh and if money is an issue then the epi is ur best bet. btw ive ran both mutiple times and test is king. good luck

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Originally Posted by roidneedles

Epistane kicks ass bro I can say from expierence that the shit rocks.. But it comes down to ur goals.. If ur looking for a quick recomp ur cut cycle the epistane is ur way to go. Or if ur llooking to bulk up and be on for a bit longer then test. ORRR u could run the epi as ur kickstart to a test cycle!! haha thatd be the best option. Oh and if money is an issue then the epi is ur best bet. btw ive ran both mutiple times and test is king. good luck

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I can say EPI is awesome too. One of the best things ive ever taken.

Dries the **** outta your joints and can cause damage if you're not careful. Take joint supplements.

Honestly I liked it better than my test cycle. Gained more weight on test though, but the gains were better on EPI

I took epi a year back. It didn't do too much to me actually. Maybe gained 2 pounds in a month or so. But also lost about a percent of body fat. Nothing dramatic. But I just started my first test e cycle last week and hope to see better results.

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Originally Posted by stackedbro

I took epi a year back. It didn't do too much to me actually. Maybe gained 2 pounds in a month or so. But also lost about a percent of body fat. Nothing dramatic. But I just started my first test e cycle last week and hope to see better results.

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I noticed it takes a bit longer to kick in but when it does it kicks ur ass! lol I would compare it to tren like gains but not as dramatic. Dry, strong, veiny, aggressive, mass.. Its a great product IMO id take it over a lot of oral steroids honestly. U should give it another chance someday bro!

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Originally Posted by stackedbro

I took epi a year back. It didn't do too much to me actually. Maybe gained 2 pounds in a month or so. But also lost about a percent of body fat. Nothing dramatic. But I just started my first test e cycle last week and hope to see better results.

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what was was your dosing regimen

I'm currently taking Havoc, and it's doing okay for a little strength increase, along with getting rid of some stubborn fat. Good results would probably happen between 40-60 mg/day, but don't expect them to happen right away. About the 2nd-3rd week taking it should start producing noticeable results for you.

Epistane/Havoc is actually a designer steroid currently generalized as a prohormone. It reminds me of Anavar, just less expensive, and not as effective. It's probably also harder on your liver than Anavar, but I have no data to offer to support that theory.

Dry joints? Yeah, a little, but I inhale fish oil, and take DHEA, which helps. You could also stack epi with Max LMG to help with the joint stress, but I'm not sure what your goals are, and don't know how much you plan to take.

You want to try it? Go ahead. You can find it anywhere, and it's not terribly expensive. It has a decent track record if you're not expecting quick and massive gains, and the carryover of the more timely, but higher quality muscle is better than a quick bulker, since there's no water weight you'll lose when you go off of it.

Good luck,

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Originally Posted by yosimitesam

I'm currently taking Havoc, and it's doing okay for a little strength increase, along with getting rid of some stubborn fat. Good results would probably happen between 40-60 mg/day, but don't expect them to happen right away. About the 2nd-3rd week taking it should start producing noticeable results for you.

Epistane/Havoc is actually a designer steroid currently generalized as a prohormone. It reminds me of Anavar, just less expensive, and not as effective. It's probably also harder on your liver than Anavar, but I have no data to offer to support that theory.

Dry joints? Yeah, a little, but I inhale fish oil, and take DHEA, which helps. You could also stack epi with Max LMG to help with the joint stress, but I'm not sure what your goals are, and don't know how much you plan to take.

You want to try it? Go ahead. You can find it anywhere, and it's not terribly expensive. It has a decent track record if you're not expecting quick and massive gains, and the carryover of the more timely, but higher quality muscle is better than a quick bulker, since there's no water weight you'll lose when you go off of it.

Good luck,

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OP here. I'm on week two of Havoc. have gained like six pounds (I gain weight pretty easily), but I'm guessing it's mostly water because I've only been eating about 500 kcals over maintenance (I track what I eat religiously).

I'm still in the learning phases of AAS (been studying since middle of last year) and do what to try that soon too.

I am going to give the epi another week or so and then decide what to do next. I have had a couple of sides, mostly bloating as noted in my other thread. I thought maybe it was the milk thistle but someone pointed out it could be the extra B5 too. I'm turning each up slowly to see which one it is. I turned up the milk thistle today (with just my normal amount of B5) and have a little bloat so we'll see.

Anyway, I have definitely had some strength gains. Set new PRs just today in bench and incline bench. I'm also able to go longer.

Just bumped up to 40 mg/day + on cycle support supps.

In the long run, I'm trying to put together an AAS plan that will help me achieve slow, keepable recomp-type gains and stay healthy w/o too many sides.

That's great. Especially so early in your cycle. I'm nearing the end of mine, and I must say it's done it's job of helping burn some fat and help with the lean muscle gain it's famous for. The strength gains have been modest, but nonetheless are there. Nothing to brag home about, but I knew that about this drug. I upped to 40mg on week 3 as well, and did so for 2 weeks. Now I'm tapering down and have another week before I'm off.

Now, in spite of the precautions I've taken to keep my joints pain free.....well....My knee joints have been golden, but my elbows have had some trouble. I'm inhaling fish oil, MSM, glucosamine/chondroitin, and also taking dhea alongside the havoc to help, but it found a joint easily irritated and exploited it. No big deal, though. As, again, I knew this going in.

I'm a lot like you in my interests in using product stems more from the desire to achieve high quality, long-term gains. More importantly, I enjoy the recovery aspect, and with some of the drugs, the joint protection and healing properties they provide. The only issue is my favorite joint fixer (deca) can bloat me up, so I usually turn to eq, which doesn't bloat me up, but still gives me what I"m looking for, while sparing my joints in the process. I also prefer using product that doesn't put my body through as much stress to process. Most, you can use, conservatively, without too much risk involved, but there are some a little friendlier than others, which is why I'm not the biggest prohormone fan, and don't plan on using epi on a regular basis.

Anyway, I'm happy you are making progress, and thank you for reporting back.

Cheers!

i tried epi once with my trt. It did nothing but made me break out like a mofo

Fortunately, I didn't have any problems with acne. How much were you taking? It's strange how the same drug can affect someone so differently, yet it happens all the time.

I still liked Anavar better, and if I were going to take a light oral, I'd probably go with Tbol.

Prohormones are garbage! Test is legit! You need to run test and you will be much happier and healthier and see waaaay better results! Good luck

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Originally Posted by Chx beach 79

Prohormones are garbage! Test is legit! You need to run test and you will be much happier and healthier and see waaaay better results! Good luck

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I had okay results from Max LMG and H-drol. Some modest strength gains, and lean size gains, but you're right. Not even close to the good stuff, and I actually had more trouble with liver enzymes doing the h-drol than I ever did when taking d-bol. My enzymes have been good while on epi, but I'm taking the crap out of liver antioxidants, which has been helping.

I was just interested in something that I could obtain without going through too much trouble that might work. The biggest issue I have is for the amount you have to take to get minimal results don't really do what I'm ultimately after, which is alleviating joint pain so I can do my workouts more effectively. They also seem to be nastier on my liver than even the 17aa orals I've taken before.

Nope, If I had my choice, I'd stay with eq or deca. Maybe someday again.

I stack epi with test I LOVE epi . Ive used epistane for months to be honest .
For me I get great dry gains solid, vascularity and strength and maintaining most . 30-40mgs a day tops .
Udca and ALA ed .
With oils too
Ive stacked with other phs but usually gives me sides (gyno flaring ,aggression ,acne , dry joints )

Would not use longer than 6 weeks without steady blood work for LDL HDL and liver enzymes . It can also cause back pumps so keep your water high .

But really ,AAS conversion is not that great . Running real gear is best for faster gains in over all mass. ( including good diet ).

I love it imho , even use it to bridge sometimes but THAT'S ME...

OP here. Just wanted to update on this.

I ran Epi (Havoc) at 20/30/40/40 (with pre and post cycle support and a PCT including Nolva). I track every single calorie and my macros were spot on.

I gained 10 lbs in about a month and really felt larger, but it felt a lot like water weight (a lot went to my stomach, even though I'm pretty lean). Arms, legs, etc. all looked larger and I got a few comments.

However, during PCT I ran into some problems. Mostly my urine turned into foam. As in when I urinated there was a huge amount of bubbles in the water (almost as though someone took a hose to a bucket of water with shampoo).

Freaked me out a bit. I went to my doctor (who I previously had bw done with) and he checked me over and I told him every single thing I took. Kidney function was normal but at low range (I have all the exact number), T was normal in higher-ish range (I'm 35) and liver function was a little off too. Creatinine was at the very high end of the normal range.

He told me not to take anything for a month (this was after 4 weeks of PCT) and then come back and redo the tests.

I did so and everything is normal now, although urine is still really foamy.

Oh, and I'm back down 10 lbs.....

Anyway.... I sort of wish I would have just stayed away from the "legal" pro hormones. I have a feeling AAS would have gotten me better results.

Just my story....

PH are retarded...they have all the downsides of AAS but 1/100th of the benefits! Go for the real deal!

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Originally Posted by goingstronger

PH are retarded...they have all the downsides of AAS but 1/100th of the benefits! Go for the real deal!

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Yea, that's what I'm going to try to do. I've been on here for like a year and have been working on it. I do have some Nolva though :)