Week 4 blood test results? + new cycle questions?

**zeeibi** · 06-23-2013, 05:34 PM

Had blood tests done at end of week 4 of my last cycle, which i also stopped at week 4 due to a heart issue I had. (Should i end my cycle now or continue?)

Test levels were;
Test: 102 nmol/L (range is 9-29 i think)
Estrogen(i think they measured it estradiol?): 206 pmol/L(unsure of ranges, test done in Australia)

Im considering starting up again but wanted to see if i should do things different this time round. Im not sure how high my estrogen was in comparison to ranges but i wasnt using my adex much, i probly used it twice in that 4 week period at 0.25mg as was told to hold off on using until u notice sides :/.
So my question is, when starting my cycle again should i be taking adex 0.25mg E3D straight from day 1 first pin or was my estrogen in decent ranges to not have to use it that often or from the start?

Planned cycle is:
wk 1-8 test E 500mg p/w
wk 8-10(or however long 1 vial prop will last) test prop 100mg EOD
wk 3-6 dbol 30mg/day

Considering starting the dbol from start of 3rd week because i want to see how i will react to test again, had that problem with heart last time and even tho doctors & users on this forum told me it wasnt test related i want to be sure.

Any comments/feedback please

**DexterMorgan** · 06-23-2013, 06:14 PM

If this is your 1st cycle use test only (excluding the cycle you've stopped).
10 weeks is not enough, you don't really see any gains from test till week 5-6, so go with 12 weeks.
Your estro is 56 in the range of 8-43 pg/ml, so yours was high, but not too high.
AI should always be used on cycle. It's important to control your e2.
Start with .25mg eod and then adjust to .5mg eod after about 2 weeks if needed.

**MuscleInk** · 06-23-2013, 06:25 PM

Not the best decision to cycle at 22. You could do a lot of permanent damage and be on TRT for life at a young age. Your knowledge is a bit limited and based on your questions you'd be far better off spending more time reading than listening to people who aren't advising you well.

Case in point, escalating estrogen can negatively affect hemoglobin and clotting factors and lead to embolisms (blood clotting) that are far more dangerous than a pair of puffy nipples or man boobs. I cringe everytime a young or new member says they have an AI "on hand" or use it "as needed". There are many dangers associated with high estrogen that you WON'T see.

If you are having heart issues, be aware that any cycle will affect lipids (cholesterol) and blood pressure. You need to consider this factor carefully given your medical hx.

Seriously consider posting your diet. Everyone thinks they eat well. Very few do and you will not achieve your goals if your diet is not planned and followed DAILY.

**zeeibi** · 06-23-2013, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Not the best decision to cycle at 22. You could do a lot of permanent damage and be on TRT for life at a young age. Your knowledge is a bit limited and based on your questions you'd be far better off spending more time reading than listening to people who aren't advising you well.

Case in point, escalating estrogen can negatively affect hemoglobin and clotting factors and lead to embolisms (blood clotting) that are far more dangerous than a pair of puffy nipples or man boobs. I cringe everytime a young or new member says they have an AI "on hand" or use it "as needed". There are many dangers associated with high estrogen that you WON'T see.

If you are having heart issues, be aware that any cycle will affect lipids (cholesterol) and blood pressure. You need to consider this factor carefully given your medical hx.

Seriously consider posting your diet. Everyone thinks they eat well. Very few do and you will not achieve your goals if your diet is not planned and followed DAILY.

To be fair tho there is also alot of advice on this website/forum to keep an AI "on hand" etc as thats were i got that information in the first place, there seems to be mixed opinions.. some say u need a considerable level of estrogen to be able to grow etc
I appreciate the feedback and warnings and im not just brushing it off, i am seriously considering if i should cycle again or not(for now anyway).

I was cleared of heart issues in the first week of Feb when i saw my cardiologist and did a stress test, since then ive had no issues and blood pressure has been normal every time i test it(once or twice a week).
As for the diet, I know alot of you on this forum dont like the idea of the IIFYM/flexible dieting approach but thats what i follow, i track everything on myfitnesspal and hit my target macros daily with a majority being "clean" foods like brown rice, chicken, lean beef, potatoes etc..

My weight is atm is 80kg and id say im at around 13% bf..
current macro/calories is 200p/300c/70f (2650~ approx daily). I have a fairly inactive lifestyle so my maintenance cals are fairly low.

EDIT - obviously i will increase my calories if/when on cycle and keep them higher as my bodyweight increases, this is just what im on now for a "lean bulk" with my slowass metabolism
EDIT #2 - age 24, not 22

**Docd187123** · 06-23-2013, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by zeeibi

To be fair tho there is also alot of advice on this website/forum to keep an AI "on hand" etc as thats were i got that information in the first place, there seems to be mixed opinions.. some say u need a considerable level of estrogen to be able to grow etc
I appreciate the feedback and warnings and im not just brushing it off, i am seriously considering if i should cycle again or not(for now anyway).

I was cleared of heart issues in the first week of Feb when i saw my cardiologist and did a stress test, since then ive had no issues and blood pressure has been normal every time i test it(once or twice a week).
As for the diet, I know alot of you on this forum dont like the idea of the IIFYM/flexible dieting approach but thats what i follow, i track everything on myfitnesspal and hit my target macros daily with a majority being "clean" foods like brown rice, chicken, lean beef, potatoes etc..

My weight is atm is 80kg and id say im at around 13% bf..
current macro/calories is 200p/300c/70f (2650~ approx daily). I have a fairly inactive lifestyle so my maintenance cals are fairly low.

EDIT - obviously i will increase my calories if/when on cycle and keep them higher as my bodyweight increases, this is just what im on now for a "lean bulk" with my slowass metabolism
EDIT #2 - age 24, not 22

I completely agree with MuscleInk, you should seriously reconsider running a cycle at this point. Without more stats, training history, and diet and based solely off what you posted here, I'd say you have significant room for growth, improvement in diet, and quite possibly training as well. You're age just compounds the list of reasons to hold off. If you cycle BEFORE you have your diet and training down pat, the results you get will be mediocre at best. Risking your long term health ?considering medical hx like MuscleInk said) for mediocre results seems fruitless to me personally.

As to the part I bolded, yes estrogen is a required hormone for muscle gain BUT you're not getting the point MuscleInk is making. Testosterone is an aromatizing compound meaning IT WILL convert to estrogen (how much depends on a lot of factors). You're taking the all or nothin approach in your thought process and by that I mean you think you need "considerable estrogen" to make gains and AI use means no estrogen. There's a happy medium in the middle you're ignoring. Responsible AI use does not crush estrogen levels but it does protect against potentially harmful EXCESSIVE estrogen levels. An AI is used to keep estrogen in range and estrogenic sides at a minimum. If your estrogen is in range the gains you make won't be minimized bc levels aren't crushed. On the other hand, excessively high estrogen won't make your gains significantly better if at all but WILL have health complications for sure.

**zeeibi** · 06-23-2013, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Docd187123

I completely agree with MuscleInk, you should seriously reconsider running a cycle at this point. Without more stats, training history, and diet and based solely off what you posted here, I'd say you have significant room for growth, improvement in diet, and quite possibly training as well. You're age just compounds the list of reasons to hold off. If you cycle BEFORE you have your diet and training down pat, the results you get will be mediocre at best. Risking your long term health ?considering medical hx like MuscleInk said) for mediocre results seems fruitless to me personally.

As to the part I bolded, yes estrogen is a required hormone for muscle gain BUT you're not getting the point MuscleInk is making. Testosterone is an aromatizing compound meaning IT WILL convert to estrogen (how much depends on a lot of factors). You're taking the all or nothin approach in your thought process and by that I mean you think you need "considerable estrogen" to make gains and AI use means no estrogen. There's a happy medium in the middle you're ignoring. Responsible AI use does not crush estrogen levels but it does protect against potentially harmful EXCESSIVE estrogen levels. An AI is used to keep estrogen in range and estrogenic sides at a minimum. If your estrogen is in range the gains you make won't be minimized bc levels aren't crushed. On the other hand, excessively high estrogen won't make your gains significantly better if at all but WILL have health complications for sure.

Of course there is more room for growth naturally, there is for most people that use steroids anyway. Im not looking to compete in bodybuilding nor have a freakishly huge physique either, everyone has different goals. I could spend years training as a natural to achieve gains that are possible from small cycles such as these. I understand the age risk and the health risks associated, i came here to ask opinions on the planned cycle, with the transition from test E to prop to cut the off time before PCT and how i should run my AI this time round.

What more stats do you need? training history is bout 4yrs weight training, 4 years boxing before that. Currently running a Legs/push/pull/off routine with alternating strength and hypertrophy phases.
Age is 24, dnt know why my profile says 22 :/.
You say i need my diet down pat, ive already posted my "diet" i know its not what you guys agree with on the forums here but there is enough evidence out there to prove that IIFYM/flexible dieting works for bulking or cutting so in regards to diet I believe i know what Im doing.
Saying i will have mediocre results is abit harsh you really cannot judge someone knowledge on training/diet by there questions regarding steroid use :/

Thanks for the info on estrogen and how to use AI to keep them in check i appreciate it, I had read alot of different points of view and threads about how to use AIs and took the advice of not using it in the start until i read more and began using it week 4 at 0.25mg E3D leading up to my PCT.

**MuscleInk** · 06-23-2013, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by zeeibi

To be fair tho there is also alot of advice on this website/forum to keep an AI "on hand" etc as thats were i got that information in the first place, there seems to be mixed opinions.. some say u need a considerable level of estrogen to be able to grow etc
I appreciate the feedback and warnings and im not just brushing it off, i am seriously considering if i should cycle again or not(for now anyway).

I was cleared of heart issues in the first week of Feb when i saw my cardiologist and did a stress test, since then ive had no issues and blood pressure has been normal every time i test it(once or twice a week).
As for the diet, I know alot of you on this forum dont like the idea of the IIFYM/flexible dieting approach but thats what i follow, i track everything on myfitnesspal and hit my target macros daily with a majority being "clean" foods like brown rice, chicken, lean beef, potatoes etc..

My weight is atm is 80kg and id say im at around 13% bf..
current macro/calories is 200p/300c/70f (2650~ approx daily). I have a fairly inactive lifestyle so my maintenance cals are fairly low.

EDIT - obviously i will increase my calories if/when on cycle and keep them higher as my bodyweight increases, this is just what im on now for a "lean bulk" with my slowass metabolism
EDIT #2 - age 24, not 22

Yes, and I still cringe. From my perspective as a medical provider, the benefits of an AI outweigh the risks of using and not using an AI as long as doses are properly followed and not misused or abused. I agree, there is certainly an optimal range of E2 and it varies individually. Some guys feel better when their levels are on the higher end of normal (ULN); others function better at the lower end. I've had mine run as high as 400 and I've accidentally crashed it trying to lower it quickly (when it shot up). Ironically, I felt no untoward effects at 400 although parameters in my blood work favored cardiac risks if left untreated. Crashing my E actually "felt" worse.

Good to hear the stress test was normal. Keep an eye on the BP and hyperlipidemia when running any cycle - we want you healthy and alive.

Diet is also an individual factor but it is critical to success. The TDEE an caloric needs for LBM or cutting will vary with each person. The TDEE+/- 500 to gain or lose weight is a guideline. Everyone needs to determine their own "set point" for sustainable gains or loses - but make no mistake, nutrition is everything.

Like many guys, I made the mistake in my very first cycle of not staying consistent with my nutrition off cycle. I gained a lot (mostly water) on my very first cycle and lost much of it when I went on TRT because I wasn't eating enough to support and sustain the gains. We're just trying to help the newbies avoid the mistakes we (an others) have made.

**zeeibi** · 06-29-2013, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Yes, and I still cringe. From my perspective as a medical provider, the benefits of an AI outweigh the risks of using and not using an AI as long as doses are properly followed and not misused or abused. I agree, there is certainly an optimal range of E2 and it varies individually. Some guys feel better when their levels are on the higher end of normal (ULN); others function better at the lower end. I've had mine run as high as 400 and I've accidentally crashed it trying to lower it quickly (when it shot up). Ironically, I felt no untoward effects at 400 although parameters in my blood work favored cardiac risks if left untreated. Crashing my E actually "felt" worse.

Good to hear the stress test was normal. Keep an eye on the BP and hyperlipidemia when running any cycle - we want you healthy and alive.

Diet is also an individual factor but it is critical to success. The TDEE an caloric needs for LBM or cutting will vary with each person. The TDEE+/- 500 to gain or lose weight is a guideline. Everyone needs to determine their own "set point" for sustainable gains or loses - but make no mistake, nutrition is everything.

Like many guys, I made the mistake in my very first cycle of not staying consistent with my nutrition off cycle. I gained a lot (mostly water) on my very first cycle and lost much of it when I went on TRT because I wasn't eating enough to support and sustain the gains. We're just trying to help the newbies avoid the mistakes we (an others) have made.

ty for the info, will defs keep an eye on the BP etc n get some bloods done during.

Wanted to clear up some things tho.
Start adex at 0.25 e3d day of my 1st jab? y/n?
when transitioning from the 2x250mg p/w test E to the 100mg EOD test prop, how many days after my last test E jab to i do my first prop jab to keep blood levels as stable as possible?