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Just planning my summer cut(Am aussie) So any advice would be great before i order some of my stuff. Thanks!
weeks 1-9 test prop
weeks 1-8 tren ace
weeks 2-9 adex 0.25mg every second day
weeks 2-9 caber 0.25mg Twice a week
PCT
clomid 50/50/25/25
aromasin 50/25/25/25
AFP,
Please list your height, weight, body fat percentage, cycle experience and training experience.
6"2
115kgs
15%?
Done a few PH/Currently on a test E cycle a week left
5years
Age 26
Was going to post it but i was hoping no one would ask lol
Tren's going to shut you down pretty hard. I tell guys to have at least a few cycles under their belt before they try Tren. You need your body to get used to the HPTA shutting down and starting back up with PCT at least a few times. I've cycled for years before I ran Tren it not only shut me down but I suffered anorgasmia for a year. It'll be super frustrating for you young guy like you if you get anorgasmia. Ease into Tren, you have lots of time.
Well for future reference, more than happy to run more a Test E/P cycle again. But what i have planned for the tren/prop is good?
You haven't listed your plans for mg's.... This could many many different types of cycles depending on mg's used.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP
PCT is week, AI during PCT is not needed, no dosages listed, no reason to run prop week longer....
It's obvious your research is lacking. When it's Tren we are discussing I prefer the OP come in with an obvious understanding of what they are doing...not just a shotgun approach to steroid use.
A lot of people suggest running test a bit longer then tren.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunk1
@OP - i hope you don't mean 50mg of aromasin per day for a week during pct.
Who and why?? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by lolfb
I've read it countless times here. It's suggested to run test past tren to help with any libido issues and ease recovery as you go into pct.
It's BS! They will clear out of your system at the same time (Tren A actually a bit sooner) and you will remain shutdown while running the last week of prop anyhow. As far as libido...mine is never stronger than when using tren.Quote:
Originally Posted by lolfb
How is my PCT weak lunk1?
i have seen that same dosages in quite a few pcts i have come across, how is it wrong? lolfb ThnakS!
Clomid with no Nolva is a bad idea IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by human project
will be doing a European cycle low test, higher tren. About 3 bottles of tren and 5 of prop. Dosages im still working out atm,
Never had a problem with clomid alone. Not to mention that no one should even consider using nolva for a tren cycle. Unless that is you like big lumps behind your tits that leak fluid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunk1
LOL. Nolva is by far a superior SERM to Clomid. If I had to choose one of the 2 it would be Nolva hands down. Whoever told you that no Nolva on a tren cycle is regurgitating shit they keep hearing on from other ppl who have no clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by lolfb
Besides we are talking about a PCT not gyno reversal on cycle anyhow.
I don't know where you're getting your information from but nolva is not superior to clomid in any way. Clomid triggers test production at a higher rate then nolva could ever do. It binds to the hypothalamus at a high rate, whereas nolva binds more to the breast tissue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunk1
If you're wanting to combat gyno then go ahead and use nolva, but if you want a faster response by your body and start producing test, clomid beats out nolva in every way. There were a few studies done that proved clomid as being the only SERM that can bring back HPTA functions. But beyond that, nolva can trigger prolactin and progrestorone sides, which tren already has elevated on cycle. Tossing nolva after that will cause prolactin induced gyno
And i know we're talking about pct, that was my exact reason for saying it.
Your Pct is on the weak side regardless of your research findings (not looking for argument). For Pct purposes it is optimal to run two compounds weather it's Torem/Nov or Clom/Nov. I just ran Torem/Nov after a 12 week Tes e/tren e cycle and had a great Pct (as far as Pct goes anway). Lunk1 will not point you in the wrong direction (I think he invented Tren....haha).
I would absolutely love to see something factual supporting this instead of parroted bro science. That's such a sweeping generalized misconception... Completely antiquated and irrelevant knowledgeQuote:
Originally Posted by lolfb
Not sure what forum you are parroting from but please read this thread to get started. There is a reason Nolva AND Clomid are suggested routinely here. I'm saying that IF I chose only one for PCT Nolva is superior!!Quote:
Originally Posted by lolfb
http://forums.steroid.com/pct-post-c...lomid-pct.html
Took less than 30 seconds of googling to find factual evidence to support my claim, so here you go. If you need any more studies, I'll be happy to dig up more when I get on my computerQuote:
Originally Posted by ChiveOn
Quote:
Tamoxifen citrate increases expression of progesterone receptor.
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9.
Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.
Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.
Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. [email protected]
Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either Anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to subdivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.
And here is a study to show that clomid has actually been tested on steroid users and has been shown to kickstart hpta functions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunk1
And as I stated before, nolva is a great anti-oestrogen. It is however not as good as clomid when it comes to recovery. Clomid binds to the hypothalamus and blocks estrogen there, thus starting up your test production. Nolva works by blocking estrogen in similar ways but it doesn't focus on the hypothalamus. Nolva mainly targets the breast tissue
Quote:
Fertil Steril 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5
Use of Clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.
Tan RS, Vasudevan D.
Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]
OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by Clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - , lh - leutenizing hormone - . RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with lh - leutenizing hormone - surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of Clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.
Nolva works at both the hypothalamus and the pituitary just like Clomid. You have no idea what you are posting after you google it!Quote:
Originally Posted by lolfb
Do you really feel confident enough to continue this?
Since it appears you didn't read the thread I linked I will post the article I wanted you to pay special attention to.
Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
By William Llewellyn
I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
Conclusion
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.
References
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7
2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
dbl post
hold on google is down.. brb
ill pick torem...
along side tamox
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunk1
I suggwst re-reading my post. Both SERMs are effectve at targeting estrogen receptors. I never stated they weren't. I stated that clomid targets the hypothalamus more than it does breast tissue. Nolva targets the breast tissue more than it does the hypothalamus. The breast tissue isn't what causes hpta kickstart, the hypothalamus plays a way bigger role. I'm more than confident sense I have posted a study that makes clomid the only SERM that has been PROVEN to be effective on steroid users. Nolva doesn't have such study. And I have read that post you linked a million times on a million different steroid boards for the past 10 years. Studies linked to it are as old as I am, whereas studies on clomid are newer and more accurate and nolva has been used as PCT for a lot longer than clomid. Hence why more people tend to use it even now. It "works". So people jst continue to use it as they did in the past. But that doesn't mean that it's more effectice than clomid. My initial post on this subject was telling OP not to use nolva as it will trigger prolactin gyno since his prolactin will already be high as it is from tren. I never argued that a person shouldn't use both Serms as two of them will be more effective than one, but in the case of tren and deca, it's different. I prefer clomid in every way, I've recovered and kept my gains on clomid alone pct and have never had a problem with it. You can go ahead and use whatever you want.
I'm a little surprised by Lonk1s input to this thread, as in my view lolfb is making very sensible points.
Ad SERMs-
In medical field, Clomifene is the SERM of choice for inhibiting negative feedback on the hypothalamus. Tamoxifen, on the other hand, is the staple choice of treatment for hormone receptor-positive breast cancer. There must be a good reason for the above.
Ad Tren-
Discontinuing Trenbolone couple of weeks prior to ceasing Testosterone/starting PCT is a best practice for number of reasons. It will allow time for the Tren metabolites to drop to reasonable level, as for them not to impair with PCT treatment. The other is to give chance for Prolactin to level out, high levels of which could give you issues like ED/anorgasmia entering or even past PCT.
Nolva blocks ER therefore essentially down regulating the PR. Not to mention effective use of an AI on cycle will control Estrogen in turn effectively controlling prolactin. Don't confuse the two.
Either way on a short ester cycle most run both 8 weeks
Start pct 3 days after
Run AI like you said
Caber usually not needed if E is kept in control but I always keep on hand
Also considering some of the sides clomid has many have moved to what I suggested with torem/tamox.
There are many studies out there and I have seen both ways explained as to which is better.
Although this is one of few defending clomid.
I for one am not a fan esp for the main course of action
As for a couple weeks keep in mind we are talking about ace ...
Torem and Nolva is what I typically recommend. I don't like going blind and having headaches. F clomid
I agree that Torem/Nolva is amuch more effective combo with less associated sides.