Gains forever or cycle forever ?

[jamesz123]

Here is a thought.

I firmly believe that you can not keep your gains from steriods if you go clean for a couple of months. So what is the point of taking gear one time a year. It stands to reason that if you start with steriods it is more like almost a lifetime endevour ... you take and take and take.

All that crazy training and diet will go to waste since when you are off for a couple of months you will loose everything. You are better off training for years clean and gaining what you can and than taking the juice for a lifetime (of and on of course). At-least you will know where you stand when and if you come of steroids and loose your gains....you will know where you will return to.

I get the feeling most people (I was the same way) approach steriod use (time, energy, money etc) like they will keep the gains for years to come even if they are off the cycle - isnt that a complete waste of your most valuable resource - TIME.

[XxAndreaxX]

you're right, but not everyone reacts the same. Most people, keep well their gains, and the more meso you are, more you'll keep.
I don't keep virtually anything, but I'm very ecto, but I don't think like that. I say: I cycle once a year, during the whole summer, I feel the well being of roids, and enjoy people loking at me. then, in winter, I have other priorities, and normally I have a winter GF, so I don't need to **** around.

[jamesz123]

Cool....no doubt.
But a Meso will be bigger and better than the less talented body anyway, so to speak if they train naturally . The loss in gains is universal in my opinion. So my point is valid for everyone.

[Back In Black]

you're right, but not everyone reacts the same. Most people, keep well their gains, and the more meso you are, more you'll keep.
I don't keep virtually anything, but I'm very ecto, but I don't think like that. I say: I cycle once a year, during the whole summer, I feel the well being of roids, and enjoy people loking at me. then, in winter, I have other priorities, and normally I have a winter GF, so I don't need to **** around.

You cycle more than once a year and you lose your gains because you are clueless as to diet.

[Back In Black]

Here is a thought.

I firmly believe that you can not keep your gains from steriods if you go clean for a couple of months. So what is the point of taking gear one time a year. It stands to reason that if you start with steriods it is more like almost a lifetime endevour ... you take and take and take.

All that crazy training and diet will go to waste since when you are off for a couple of months you will loose everything. You are better off training for years clean and gaining what you can and than taking the juice for a lifetime (of and on of course). At-least you will know where you stand when and if you come of steroids and loose your gains....you will know where you will return to.

I get the feeling most people (I was the same way) approach steriod use (time, energy, money etc) like they will keep the gains for years to come even if they are off the cycle - isnt that a complete waste of your most valuable resource - TIME.

You will lose everything if your diet is poor or you are so far beyond your own genetic limit that it is difficult, but not impossible, to keep all your gains. There are guys on this site under 6 foot who,relatively easily, maintain almost 250lbs on nothing more than a TRT dose of test.

This is a long term sport. If you eat right and keep increasing your calories as your size progresses, and you train right, it is possible to retain ALOT of your gains.

If, like Andrea (and many others), you only bother training hard and dieting ok while you are taking AAS then you will lose everything because you give it much less effort when you come off. But you almost need to give it more effort when you are training without AAS.

But yes, you shouldn't start taking gear until you reach your natural genetic limit.

[OnTheSauce]

You cycle more than once a year and you lose your gains because you are clueless as to diet.

Pretty much this

[jamesz123]

You will lose everything if your diet is poor or you are so far beyond your own genetic limit that it is difficult, but not impossible, to keep all your gains. There are guys on this site under 6 foot who,relatively easily, maintain almost 250lbs on nothing more than a TRT dose of test.

This is a long term sport. If you eat right and keep increasing your calories as your size progresses, and you train right, it is possible to retain ALOT of your gains.

If, like Andrea (and many others), you only bother training hard and dieting ok while you are taking AAS then you will lose everything because you give it much less effort when you come off. But you almost need to give it more effort when you are training without AAS.

But yes, you shouldn't start taking gear until you reach your natural genetic limit.

yes I see what you are saying, just that I just do not beilve that anymore. I just do not think it is true at all and yes I have been around many bodybuilders and heard all the arguments.

[Lunk1]

muscle is muscle. It doesn't matter how you gained it, it still requires the same thing to keep it. Diet and training.

(this does not include ppl past genetic limits)

[jamesz123]

muscle is muscle. It doesn't matter how you gained it, it still requires the same thing to keep it. Diet and training.

(this does not include ppl past genetic limits)

I find what you said a little vague - no offense intended and yes I have heard this argument before. Past your genetic limit - so how can we know that you have reached your genetic limit. How can you truly know that. So if one losses muscle mass after a cycle than people would say 'he was past his genetic limit anyway ".....!! ?

In a way that does not even matter, what I am saying is you loss PURE muscle when you are off the juice for a couple of months. Practically speaking.....you might have gained a fraction of fat and so still look about the same size and weigh more than before cycle but that is not muscle - it is fat.
I see that most people do not agree with me. Wonder what the old-timers will say about this matter ?

[bigsiv]

you're right, but not everyone reacts the same. Most people, keep well their gains, and the more meso you are, more you'll keep.
I don't keep virtually anything, but I'm very ecto, but I don't think like that. I say: I cycle once a year, during the whole summer, I feel the well being of roids, and enjoy people loking at me. then, in winter, I have other priorities, and normally I have a winter GF, so I don't need to **** around.

What is a winter GF?

[DB1982]

What is a winter GF?

A winter GF-- Is nice girl you can bring around the family for all the holiday gatherings.

A summer Sloot-- Is just that a Sloot keep her as far from the family as possible. Because sloots will be sloots LOL.

[D6810]

I'm geusing girl friend

[Red Bastard]

Summer girlfriend, winter girlfriend. Sounds so highschool...

[Java Man]

yes I see what you are saying, just that I just do not beilve that anymore. I just do not think it is true at all and yes I have been around many bodybuilders and heard all the arguments.

Ok. Fair enough. I was going to post something else but after reading this I see that you are not asking anything... Simply stating your already developed and closed to new ideas opinion. I disagree, based on my 24 year history of on and off aas use and the fact that I have successfully added and kept over 70lbs of lbm in that time. Nuff said I guess. I agree with BiB and anyone else who says diet is key to keeping gains.

[jamesz123]

Ok. Fair enough. I was going to post something else but after reading this I see that you are not asking anything... Simply stating your already developed and closed to new ideas opinion. I disagree, based on my 24 year history of on and off aas use and the fact that I have successfully added and kept over 70lbs of lbm in that time. Nuff said I guess. I agree with BiB and anyone else who says diet is key to keeping gains.

i might have come across that way in that post. Let me repharse the question. I am looking for practical experience regarding this not theory.
So you saying after all these years you added all that , so how many cycle do you take per year if you do not mind and which part of diet is the key , the macros ?
Thx

[panntastic]

i might have come across that way in that post. Let me repharse the question. I am looking for practical experience regarding this not theory.
So you saying after all these years you added all that , so how many cycle do you take per year if you do not mind and which part of diet is the key , the macros ?
Thx

That's me in my pic taken a few weeks back
I've not cycled for nearly 2 years if not over 2 years now.
I weigh 254lbs yeah I'm carrying some fat but there's some muscle there too

[jamesz123]

That's me in my pic taken a few weeks back
I've not cycled for nearly 2 years if not over 2 years now.
I weigh 254lbs yeah I'm carrying some fat but there's some muscle there too

yes you do look impressive and I do not want to start annoying anyone now but what makes you think you would not look like that even without any cycle, just hard training. You seem to have the body of a natural 'great body' person. Are you telling me that after you used a cycle you kept all your gains (or most) after 2 years off cycle ?
Also taking juice at say 20 and than staying off till say 25 does not really count since your body is growing/maturing anyway...

[panntastic]

yes you do look impressive and I do not want to start annoying anyone now but what makes you think you would not look like that even without any cycle, just hard training. You seem to have the body of a natural 'great body' person. Are you telling me that after you used a cycle you kept all your gains (or most) after 2 years off cycle ?
Also taking juice at say 20 and than staying off till say 25 does not really count since your body is growing/maturing anyway...

Yeah I'm sure anyone at 5'11" like me with great diet and training could get to 250+lbs natty without a doubt but that's not your original question
I kept around 85% of my gains after pct because my hard work never stopped like some people.
I know many people who whilst cycle eat well and train hard then stop till next cycle.
That's not how it's done and that's why some people loose nearly all their gains

[Angel of death]

If your diet is on point and your training is on point then it all comes down to one thing. Genetics. I've noticed the guys with ectomorph bodies that were never meant to hold muscle almost always shrink back down, and the dudes who were naturally big before they even took steroids almost never miss a beat after their cycles. It's 100% true

[Angel of death]

But let me just also add that I don't think anything helps as much as HGH to keep gains and transform a body permanently. Just my $.02

[Times Roman]

I think the biggest problem with coming off cycle for many is the psychological aspect of coming off and a general apathy towards training when not on cycle.

Yes, there will be some roller coaster effect when coming off, but how you train when off can minimize some of this. To a high degree, in this regard, it's a mental thing.

[jamesz123]

But let me just also add that I don't think anything helps as much as HGH to keep gains and transform a body permanently. Just my $.02

LOL....yes that is the WHOLE thing.....THAT is what I have seen also. HGH and or some type of bridge helps keeps gains but that is not being off cycle in my opinion. thx everyone;.

[swazte2004]

Yeah I'm sure anyone at 5'11" like me with great diet and training could get to 250+lbs natty without a doubt but

I would definitely like to see that at 15% BF or less no AAS ever. That would be a very lucky MF hahaha.

[Java Man]

i might have come across that way in that post. Let me repharse the question. I am looking for practical experience regarding this not theory.
So you saying after all these years you added all that , so how many cycle do you take per year if you do not mind and which part of diet is the key , the macros ?
Thx

I don't make a big deal of counting calories or micro-managing my food. I'm too busy. I keep a protein/carb/fat ratio around 40/45/15 mostly but THE most important thing IMO for naturally thin people like myself is eat so often that you feel like puking all the time. If I ever feel hungry then I know I am not eating enough. That sounds unpleasant but after doing that for years you get used to it - like brushing your teeth or taking a shower every morning. It just becomes automatic, something that you do subconsciously.

When I started doing this, my weight started to increase. I follow every normal meal with 2 or 3 HB eggs and a protein shake mixed with milk, not water. I also swallow a few eggs randomly throughout the day. I'll munch on uncooked spaghetti noodles. I'm getting 4500 to 5500 cal per day. That's what I need to maintain 220lbs with my fast metabolism. It is expensive and it takes a lot of self control to get to that point but it works. Also, I do not eat fast food. garbage in, garbage out. Quality in, quality out.

[jamesz123]

I don't make a big deal of counting calories or micro-managing my food. I'm too busy. I keep a protein/carb/fat ratio around 40/45/15 mostly but THE most important thing IMO for naturally thin people like myself is eat so often that you feel like puking all the time. If I ever feel hungry then I know I am not eating enough. That sounds unpleasant but after doing that for years you get used to it - like brushing your teeth or taking a shower every morning. It just becomes automatic, something that you do subconsciously.

When I started doing this, my weight started to increase. I follow every normal meal with 2 or 3 HB eggs and a protein shake mixed with milk, not water. I also swallow a few eggs randomly throughout the day. I'll munch on uncooked spaghetti noodles. I'm getting 4500 to 5500 cal per day. That's what I need to maintain 220lbs with my fast metabolism. It is expensive and it takes a lot of self control to get to that point but it works. Also, I do not eat fast food. garbage in, garbage out. Quality in, quality out.

very interesting - That is a lot of money and time spend, what is the logic behind the raw spaghetti ?
Also what is your fat % ?

[Java Man]

No idea. That's me in the av. 14 maybe.

Raw spaghetti because it has carbs and protein, no fat, its cheap, can be stored anywhere where its not humid and I can eat a lot more of it dry than wet. Like some people munch on chips our whatever junk snack - I munch dry noodles instead. I swallow dry oats with a glass of water occasionally for the same reason.

[ChiveOn]

What is a winter GF?

A summer gf is the hot one you bring around in a bikini. You love the looks but her personality is biotch. A winter gf is a better person but way less hot.
At least in my experience. Totally enjoying the summer portion right now hahaha

[big_ron]

You will lose everything if your diet is poor or you are so far beyond your own genetic limit that it is difficult, but not impossible, to keep all your gains. There are guys on this site under 6 foot who,relatively easily, maintain almost 250lbs on nothing more than a TRT dose of test.

This is a long term sport. If you eat right and keep increasing your calories as your size progresses, and you train right, it is possible to retain ALOT of your gains.

If, like Andrea (and many others), you only bother training hard and dieting ok while you are taking AAS then you will lose everything because you give it much less effort when you come off. But you almost need to give it more effort when you are training without AAS.

But yes, you shouldn't start taking gear until you reach your natural genetic limit.

What Bullshit. If you are at the top of your NATURAL POTENTIAL. And go above this using gear. How do you expect to keep it NATURALLY? The answer is in the question really.

250lbs means nothing. They would be a fat 250lbs naturally. Remembering Phil heath competes at 240lbs and on tons of gear and the best in the world currently.

The OP is correct. You will lose all gains after a cycle within a year. And if you dont.. you where never at your NATURAL POTENTIAL...

[< <Samson> >]

Well, yes & no


Without sauce you can stay as your body lets you. But, don't say your body is not keeping it on its own when you are just not eating enough.

But, there is a limit. I have gained a lot using juice over the last two years. Now, I'm off - Still keeping everything. The pump isn't there, but the mass stays. I still look the same and my lifts are close. Yet, I know I won't be able to keep what I gain when I gain quite a bit more LBM.

[analovz]

What Bullshit. If you are at the top of your NATURAL POTENTIAL. And go above this using gear. How do you expect to keep it NATURALLY? The answer is in the question really.

250lbs means nothing. They would be a fat 250lbs naturally. Remembering Phil heath competes at 240lbs and on tons of gear and the best in the world currently.

The OP is correct. You will lose all gains after a cycle within a year. And if you dont.. you where never at your NATURAL POTENTIAL...

Totally agree here. Its just pure logic and common sense. You cannot keep a single pound of muscle past of you natural limit with natural hormone(testosterone) that your body produces. Its the nature period!

I think most of these guys that say opposite are either way behind their natural limit or on trt trying to justify it to make themselves feel good for being on trt.

[< <Samson> >]

I talked to a few guys so far that are a pretty damn big size. They still PCT and not just run TRT. They keep their size year round. . . Yet of course it just depends.

[Lunk1]

What Bullshit. If you are at the top of your NATURAL POTENTIAL. And go above this using gear. How do you expect to keep it NATURALLY? The answer is in the question really.

250lbs means nothing. They would be a fat 250lbs naturally. Remembering Phil heath competes at 240lbs and on tons of gear and the best in the world currently.

The OP is correct. You will lose all gains after a cycle within a year. And if you dont.. you where never at your NATURAL POTENTIAL...

I don't believe the OP ever stated anything about being near or at "natural genetic limits". I agree that if you are a BB that the closer you get to your genetic potential the harder it is to put on muscle and if you use AAS to go above that level then yes.

If your the average gym rat wanna be that 98% of us on here are then no..continued gear use is not necessary to save gains.

[< <Samson> >]

If your the average gym rat wanna be that 98% of us on here are then no..continued gear use is not necessary to save gains.

Very well said, sums it all up

[jamesz123]

Very well said, sums it all up

Hard to tell where your genetic potential is really.....platues are one thing (that make you think you are at your limit) but than I have seen people break through them (so than they realize that was not their max potential...oh ok so what was the max potential. See what I mean ).
This - 'natural potential' term is thrown around much too liberally in my opinion.

let me put this yet another way ...
If you were a natural 150 pounder and gained ONLY 5 pounds naturally and than used steriods and gained 15 pounds more....you will loose the 15 pounds even though it might seem that you are no where near your natural max potential.
If you had added 30 pounds NATURALLY and than used juice and added 15 pounds you will still loose those 15 pounds that you gained on steroids .
That has been my experience and observation. We all know people BS about not using a bridge to maintain...
NOW many do not realize that they keep working hard and eating etc ....way after and before they use steroids and hence are still gaining muscle naturally slowly but surely and they might mistake that for KEEPING STEROID GAINS.....
Others do steroids when they are too young and the body is still maturing...like from 20 to 28 your body will change regardless....add natural diet and gym and you will look better and better. They might mistake that for keeping steroid gains.
Others were naturally too skinny and added weight, muscle but also some fat (since they too skinny they will still not look fat) because they eat a lot .......and might mistake that for keeping steroid gains.

My point - what ever - however - whenever ..you make steroids induced gains YOU WILL LOOSE ALL OF THEM.
Theory one side and practice another side.
PCT in my opinion just prevents a crash ....that is very different.
I have a very different opinion about steroids use for the past couple of years and my life is much better now LOL

Going on a cycle or two per year and devoting too much resources will get you distracted from improving your life in other areas....like making money, family, girls etc etc ....lol. Steroid gains are really NO gains it seems to me unless you use them almost too frequently and that is money and time not wisely spend unless you compete, Also risking your health in certain ways....

Just a thought. Anyway live your life to the fullest cause life is too short.....peace and thanks everyone.

[Lunk1]

Let me see if I have this straight James. No matter my age, size, genetics or any other contributing factors, if I gain 10 bounds without steroids I can keep that 10 pounds of muscle but if I used steroids while I gained the 10 pounds of muscle, then I will lose all of the 10 pounds.

Does that sum up your philosophy? If it does then you truly have NO idea how steroids work! You are essentially saying that if you take 2 guys that are 30 y.o. 185 pounds 6'2" at 16% BF with the same body type. They both eat an identical diet and train in an identical manner but subject 1 uses steroids and subject 2 does not. That any additional muscle gained by subject 1 OVER subject 2 will be lost. Muscle tissue is muscle tissue is muscle tissue! Your body doesn't separate muscle tissue gained while using steroids from muscle tissue gained naturally.

[jamesz123]

Let me see if I have this straight James. No matter my age, size, genetics or any other contributing factors, if I gain 10 bounds without steroids I can keep that 10 pounds of muscle but if I used steroids while I gained the 10 pounds of muscle, then I will lose all of the 10 pounds.

Does that sum up your philosophy? ......

I have heard, read, believed etc etc all the various theories out there. Just that when I see it practically speaking in me and in many other people that I know (some compete and many are actually bigger than pros (not 3% body fat though lol)..... my conclusion is that YES you do loose EVERYTHING WITH THE CONDITION THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY OFF THE JUICE.
I have seen people (me included) literally obsessing over every detail to keep there gains and dpo everything, including people who have all the time in the world
I posted this question to know what others have experienced and seen .....practically.

Anyway thanks everyone I do not want to sound like I am just starting trouble.

[panntastic]

I have heard, read, believed etc etc all the various theories out there. Just that when I see it practically speaking in me and in many other people that I know (some compete and many are actually bigger than pros (not 3% body fat though lol)..... my conclusion is that YES you do loose EVERYTHING WITH THE CONDITION THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY OFF THE JUICE.
I have seen people (me included) literally obsessing over every detail to keep there gains and dpo everything, including people who have all the time in the world
I posted this question to know what others have experienced and seen .....practically.

Anyway thanks everyone I do not want to sound like I am just starting trouble.

What time scale are we talking here because like I said in my earlier post I've been off 2 years and I'm still here if not bigger

[jamesz123]

I will continue using the juice if and when I can, just that I would know what to expect etc. Also I will do it for heath reasons and for looks for a certain event (reunion, summer) and continue to have fun with it BUT will not mistake it for anything more than it is. That will also not make me obsessed with making 'as much gains as I can' and keeping them since I know better now . I also do not want my weight to fluctuate too much in a year. Now I am focusing on so much more in my life AND STILL LOOKING GOOD doing it.

You really do get wiser with age

[bigsiv]

You will only lose gains if you completely stop training and eating well. Steroids or not its still the same. James you seem to be talking from experience about gains you have lost and IMO it seems your completely selling yourself short. Possibly your diet, training or both are way off after a cycle to keep gains. Personally I think the hardest work is after cycling when you don't have the help of steroids, that's when you need to hit the gym harder and the kitchen as well.......but that's just my opinion off my experience same as you James

[panntastic]

I will continue using the juice if and when I can, just that I would know what to expect etc. Also I will do it for heath reasons and for looks for a certain event (reunion, summer) and continue to have fun with it BUT will not mistake it for anything more than it is. That will also not make me obsessed with making 'as much gains as I can' and keeping them since I know better now . I also do not want my weight to fluctuate too much in a year. Now I am focusing on so much more in my life AND STILL LOOKING GOOD doing it.

You really do get wiser with age

I'm confused are you saying that YOU cycle for summer get lean whatever it is your after, then after that cycle go back to pre cycle weight etc?