Crossfitter, first cycle, Test Cypionate + Toremifene

Hello all,

I've started my first cycle of test cypionate this week. I'm a 30 y.o., male, 5'6, 150 lbs, 23% BF. I'm moderately in-shape, do crossfit about 6-7 hours a week or about 4x a week. I have a few questions:

1) What kind of results can I expect using cypionate and doing crossfit?

2) When will I start "feeling" this or noticing gains or strength?

3) Is Paleo a good and effective diet to follow while using test?

4) If I don't lift heavy and eat like a beast, will the test at least help me burn some of this unwanted fat and lean me out?

I'm using:
500 mg of test 1x/wk via IM injection
After 13 weeks, Tore at 40 mg PO

23% bf is not moderately in shape, i'm sorry to say. I don't mean that as an insult, just trying to help you with an honest answer.

You can expect to get gynecomastia by using cyp at that high of a bf%. And actually, it will likely make you fatter due to the excess conversion to estrogen. (higher bf % = more conversion of testosterone to estrogen; estrogen directly leads to fat gain)

Cyp usually kicks in after 3-5 weeks. It really varies from user to user; some people don't notice it kick in until 7+

You need to get an anti estrogen as soon as possible. Arimidex or Aromasin will be of great help to you.
0.25-0.5mg EoD of arimidex is normally sufficient. (I would say you will probably need 0.5mg EoD or ED, but you should start low and adjust upwards so that you do not crash your estrogen levels)

Test won't do anything for your fat, diet will. I have to agree with BBJT, you started at pretty high BF. Usually crossfit guys are skinny and ripped. Visual results will not impress you at that bf%.
Please list your complete cycle. Every drug that you're currently taking and will be taking for PCT. As well as the length of time you'll be taking them.

Thanks for the replies so far. I may be at far less BF than what I mentioned in my initial post. That BF was 7 mos. ago. I've been doing CF with a modified Paleo diet very intensely. I started at 163 and lost about 13 lbs. A more conservative BF guess would be closer to 18%. Anyhow, here's my cycle:

Test cypionate:
Wk 1-10 2ml (500 mg) intramuscularly
Off wk 11 + 12
Wk 13-16 Toremifene citrate 40mg, tapering to 20mg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

Thanks for the replies so far. I may be at far less BF than what I mentioned in my initial post. That BF was 7 mos. ago. I've been doing CF with a modified Paleo diet very intensely. I started at 163 and lost about 13 lbs. A more conservative BF guess would be closer to 18%. Anyhow, here's my cycle:

Test cypionate:
Wk 1-10 2ml (500 mg) intramuscularly
Off wk 11 + 12
Wk 13-16 Toremifene citrate 40mg, tapering to 20mg

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This is a horrible cycle my friend.

Cycle for minimum of 12 weeks, get Aromatize Inhibitor ASAP, Arimidex or Aromasin.(Ar-r At the top right corner, red banner sells them). You have to control your Estrogen. Also get some Nolva for PCT. Get HCG if you can to use during your cycle.

Go to educational thread section. Do as much research as you can, and make sure to get blood work mid cycle and post PCT.
It's kind of irresponsible what you did at the age of 30 :).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

Thanks for the replies so far. I may be at far less BF than what I mentioned in my initial post. That BF was 7 mos. ago. I've been doing CF with a modified Paleo diet very intensely. I started at 163 and lost about 13 lbs. A more conservative BF guess would be closer to 18%. Anyhow, here's my cycle:

Test cypionate:
Wk 1-10 2ml (500 mg) intramuscularly
Off wk 11 + 12
Wk 13-16 Toremifene citrate 40mg, tapering to 20mg

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I would of recommended against this. You are not even a bb and barely a crossfitter. I am being blunt. You should of waited till you got your body together diet mind etc..
I would not expect much.
Paleo is a great diet. You just need to make sure your hitting your macro break down.

I dont mean to be rude I just do not see the point of shutting your natty system down when your at yours stats and your current goals.

Pct 2 wks after last
Nolva 40 40 20 20
Seeing your not running clomid

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

Thanks for the replies so far. I may be at far less BF than what I mentioned in my initial post. That BF was 7 mos. ago. I've been doing CF with a modified Paleo diet very intensely. I started at 163 and lost about 13 lbs. A more conservative BF guess would be closer to 18%. Anyhow, here's my cycle:

Test cypionate:
Wk 1-10 2ml (500 mg) intramuscularly
Off wk 11 + 12
Wk 13-16 Toremifene citrate 40mg, tapering to 20mg

---

I would of recommended against this. You are not even a bb and barely a crossfitter. I am being blunt. You should of waited till you got your body together diet mind etc..
I would not expect much.
Paleo is a great diet. You just need to make sure your hitting your macro break down.

I dont mean to be rude I just do not see the point of shutting your natty system down when your at yours stats and your current goals.

Pct 2 wks after last
Definitely need an ai
Nolva 40 40 20 20
Seeing your not running clomid

Also, if it's your 1st week, discontinue this cycle for your own good. That way you won't even need PCT, after 1 week of usage. With the lack of knowledge it's easy to cause serious health problems. Do some more research, read, read, and read. You can learn a lot from this forum. From what I can tell, you don't know much about steroids. I'm not trying to be rude, just letting you know what's best for you.

Too late. I've ordered Nolvadex and Liquid Letro. Going to do more research. Meanwhile, going to stick to the plan.

Do I still take the TORE along with the nolva?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

Too late. I've ordered Nolvadex and Liquid Letro. Going to do more research. Meanwhile, going to stick to the plan.

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Week 1 is never too late. You can save all your gear, AI, and SERMS for later. And be careful with letro, not the best choice of AI for the 1st cycle.
You can learn so much in just 1 month, and begin your cycle safely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

Too late. I've ordered Nolvadex and Liquid Letro. Going to do more research. Meanwhile, going to stick to the plan.

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I can see you're pretty dead set on doing this, regardless of the consequences so...hopefully you'll listen here:

Liquid letrozole is an extremely poor choice for an AI. you're going to have a lot of issues. Contact AR-R and get liquidex instead.
Also, you should be injecting twice a week. (Every 3.5 days)

Okay, I emailed them to change it to liquidex. Im changing the cycle to reflect 12 weeks of use at 400 mg instead of 500 mg for 10 weeks.

I also plan on supplementing my crossfit workouts with heavy lifting.

I'm splitting my doses in two; Monday morning and Thursday evening.

I read up on the noob section and discovered a plethora of info at my disposal. Thanks for taking the time to share your profound knowledge with me on this subject!

By all means, continue to scrutinize my cycle and approach. I'm very open to the criticism and tips you're all hashing out (;

Have to say I agree with everyone who replied. Crossfit and eating right is a deadly combination for bodyfat, you can get really good results without dealing with AAS and the risks that come with it. Get the bf down and lean muscle mass up first. You're already on the right path.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

Okay, I emailed them to change it to liquidex. Im changing the cycle to reflect 12 weeks of use at 400 mg instead of 500 mg for 10 weeks.

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Why lower the dosage and up the weeks? You're shutting yourself down already why not just stick at the 500mg weekly... You are lacking in some very basic areas on knowledge as I would also suggest you stop your usage while you still can.

You seem to not want to listen even as when an AI was recommended two choices were adex and aromasin and you chose? Letro!
......

Crossfit isn't exactly the best structured training for a cycle no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChiveOn

Why lower the dosage and up the weeks? You're shutting yourself down already why not just stick at the 500mg weekly... You are lacking in some very basic areas on knowledge as I would also suggest you stop your usage while you still can.

You seem to not want to listen even as when an AI was recommended two choices were adex and aromasin and you chose? Letro!
......

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It was suggested earlier that I go on a 12 week cycle instead of 10. There wouldn't be enough gear to dose at 500 for a total of 12 weeks, so the dosage was planned at a lower dose to extend it an extra two weeks. But if 500 is okay for 10 weeks then so be it.

I don't know how I ended at Letro. I changed it nonetheless.

It is probably worth mentioning that Crossfit is a lot of heavy lifting. There's a significant combination of strength, conditioning, and heavy lifting. It seems like a good training program given that all the elements of power lifting and bodybuilding ate encased in the programming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

It was suggested earlier that I go on a 12 week cycle instead of 10. There wouldn't be enough gear to dose at 500 for a total of 12 weeks, so the dosage was planned at a lower dose to extend it an extra two weeks. But if 500 is okay for 10 weeks then so be it.

I don't know how I ended at Letro. I changed it nonetheless.

It is probably worth mentioning that Crossfit is a lot of heavy lifting. There's a significant combination of strength, conditioning, and heavy lifting. It seems like a good training program given that all the elements of power lifting and bodybuilding ate encased in the programming.

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I'm Assuming you have 2 10mL vials. Those won't last 10 weeks with 500mgs weekly injections. 9 Weeks Max. You will need at least 3 vials. Like I said previously, abort this cycle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DexterMorgan

I'm Assuming you have 2 10mL vials. Those won't last 10 weeks with 500mgs weekly injections. 9 Weeks Max. You will need at least 3 vials. Like I said previously, abort this cycle.

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I agree. Not only will some oil be held in the needle every injection but its always best to have extra in hand. I would be willing to bet that you'll be 1-2 injections short of where you think you'll be no matter what

I say go ahead and go with the cycle however you want and experience first hand all of the effects.... enjoy them or not but at least you will know what not to do for the next cycle. shit... I may just start pinning 900mg of test prop / masteron / tren ace a week now for a month instead of the 700mg i'm on just to see how it goes the last month on. I'm a fan of experimenting with things so I understand you are going to cycle whether you are ready or not. GL!

So I'm a little confused. I do only have 20 mls. Thereby, giving me enough to run 400 mg/wk for 12 weeks, give or take, since there's going to be a smidge left in the syringe after each dose. Do I just stick with the 400 or the 500?

Also, since there was a question of my body fat, I took the liberty of taking some photos this morning to give everyone an idea of where I'm starting with my current BF% and fitness level.

I'm fairly thin and lean as it is with a small, petite body frame. Conservatively, I'm guessing that I'm at 16-17%. I really won't know for sure until I get dunked again for the body fat testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

So I'm a little confused. I do only have 20 mls. Thereby, giving me enough to run 400 mg/wk for 12 weeks, give or take, since there's going to be a smidge left in the syringe after each dose. Do I just stick with the 400 or the 500?

Also, since there was a question of my body fat, I took the liberty of taking some photos this morning to give everyone an idea of where I'm starting with my current BF% and fitness level.

I'm fairly thin and lean as it is with a small, petite body frame. Conservatively, I'm guessing that I'm at 16-17%. I really won't know for sure until I get dunked again for the body fat testing.

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With 500mg, 2 vials lasted me 9 weeks. I always leave small air bubble, so that nothing will be wasted. You just wont be able to get 10 weeks out of those 2 vials. Also 12 week cycle is the minimum cycle. You won't start seeing gains until week 6 or 7 some even start noticing results on week 8.

How long have you been lifting?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DexterMorgan

With 500mg, 2 vials lasted me 9 weeks. I always leave small air bubble, so that nothing will be wasted. You just wont be able to get 10 weeks out of those 2 vials. Also 12 week cycle is the minimum cycle. You won't start seeing gains until week 6 or 7 some even start noticing results on week 8.

How long have you been lifting?

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7 mos. of crossfit, lifting for about 3 years... Started very overweight...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crossfitter83

7 mos. of crossfit, lifting for about 3 years... Started very overweight...

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Sorry, but the heck where you doing those 3 years? lol. After 6 months of lifting I looked twice your size :)

This one is easy train for another 2 years and learn to eat big!!

Then comeback with a cycle plan!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DexterMorgan

Sorry, but the heck where you doing those 3 years? lol. After 6 months of lifting I looked twice your size

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he says he doesnt lift heavy =\

Your obviously going to do this no matter what anyone tells you. I also CrossFit, and it's the only type of training I do now. I have gotten awesome results cycling, and CrossFiting. But I payed my dues and did my own research for almost a year before using gear. I also got my bf% down as low as possible, and came in with a solid base. IMO unless you can at minimum almost bench 300, squat 400, and deadlift 500. You have no business using gear. I also love the paleo diet, but I don't do it 100%. I'd have to make eating vegetables a full time job in order to get the amount of carbs I need. The fact is you'll get results from doing what your doing, but the positives IMO won't outweigh the negatives. I agree with what the majority is telling you above. Congratulations on what you have accomplished so far. You could still accomplish amazing things with training natural, and tweaking your diet, along with patience. I'm sure the head trainer at your box can help you with this. Mine is a fitness genius.

83, TAKE IT SLOW.... I also Crossfit. Been on 250 ml test every other week for a couple of years and I have seen good results. The goal with crossfit is NOT to build muscle, but rather strength and endurance. You will blow up at 400mg a week, but I get the impression that is what you are after. Wont make you a better crossfitter.....

You need to get your diet in check and build a solid foundation before thinking about aas. If you go through with this cycle you wont see the results you are looking for. Total waste bro.

I can hear your ligaments begging for mercy as I'm typing this...

Diet, REAL weight lifting, patience is all you need,

your ligaments, knees, natural test levels, think you have fudged up

But in all seriousness, it looks like you have not built a solid enough base to even consider aas, you probably aren't eating enough to gain muscle/ rendering this cycle a waste.

Proper diet+ patience+ lift heavy+ knowledge= what you need

Hello.. i would like to know an update on your progress. thanks

I stopped reading when I read "Cross-fit" in the paragraph.. Stop the cycle and get a nutritionist and a personal trainer if you must.. That will accomplish the miracle youre searching for.. At 15% or above, a test cycle would be a waste of money not to mention shutting your system down for no benefit in return..Plus, you don't need steroids to try and toss around more weight that you can handle while using improper form =)

Drop the cross fit ASAP, move to the Starting Strength program and pak
some muscle on them bones man.