Estrogen, Prolactin, Progesterone Management + Gynecomastia Prevention & Reversal

[Boneslapper2002]

Hi Austinite,

So I should inform my doctor that I am taking anobolic steroids and that I need to have a sensitive E2 assay? Typically do insurance companies cover the sensitive E2 Assay (i.e. Pre Cycle, Mid Cycle & Post Cycle)?

[Denver42]

Really good write up.....

I need the experts on here to help me out..... I'm 39 and I was informed by an idiot that I believed and of course hooked me up with Super Test 450, basically over 7 months I was taking 450mg 2x a week as instructed until I started having low libido, partial ED and getting worse, could not orgasim for the life of me, and noticed that my normal gains aren't there at all..... Normally if I take to much test I get sore nipples so I know to introduce some Nolvadex .... I had no systems that seemed like it was TOO MUCH Test!

I stopped last week and am currently taking 60mg of Nolva a day going on day 3..... Until I met some great guys on here on another thread that told me I was crazy for that much for that long and my E2 must be super high and my prolactin is through the roof.

Reading the top I see this....know how to fix!!???

I read the Power PCT, and am going to get my blood work done this week.... but I would really be grateful for some thoughts on starting my PCT plan...

this is what a guy that used test for 3.5 years came off it with and got back to normal....

Day 1-20 : 2000iu HCG every other day. (going 7 months I'm thinking 5 days of 2000iu's of HCG?)

Day 1-30 : Nolva 40mg/day (20mg was taken twice per day) ; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)

Day 31-45 : Nolva 40mg/day (20mg was taken twice per day)

I noticed there isn't an AI in this? I'm trying to round up supplies ASAP as I don't want longterm effects from this debacle.....

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I have read this post and thought this is the guru's to ask.

Thanks for any help on what to do....

[oswaldosalcedo]

...wish to see, FIRST, a nor-testosterone derivative only cycle and SECOND a hyperprolactinemic blood test result of that cycle.
obvious of a previous euprolactinemic subject.

[hammerheart]

Over the last months I developed small, palpable formations underneath the right nipple.

I just hope they are fluid filled pockets and not actual breast tissue...

[aodinsvi]

hello i have a question about gyno. Now I'am using first cycle of 500mg testo and 400mg deca
picture befor cycle

picture of today

picture of today after shower

Now I am confused whether this is a gyno. and if I have it because of steorids. Sometime I have normal to see some time I have fluffy niples. Meybe because of heat, fat and water in the body?
What is your opinion

I start letro folowing these instructions
forums.steroid .com/educational-threads/236880-all-you-need-know-about-gyno.html

[hammerheart]

That's not gyno. Gynecomastia is growth of mammary tissue in the male, this can be felt as an hard lump right behind nipple.

What you display is water retention.

You were already advised to drop deca for your first cycle and use arimidex not letro.

You are going to severely kill your E2 with letro exposing yourself to an host of physical and psychological sides, for no reason at all lol.

Even in the case of gyno best course of treatment is with SERMs not letro.

[aodinsvi]

i cant get armidex only letro. i have i little hard lump right behind nipple from puberty.
i overlooked post about letro

[hammerheart]

Over the last months I developed small, palpable formations underneath the right nipple.

I just hope they are fluid filled pockets and not actual breast tissue...

Seriously guise you won't believe it but I've tasted the liquid spilling out from my nips (lol) and it literally tastes like milk... all of my WTF

[IronMasca]

Guys, lets suppose I took too much Arimidex (anastrozole) and my Estrogen levels went to the ground... How can I let my Estrogen to go up and avoid a rebound gyno "? Could I reduce the dose of AI and take Nolvadex together while my E2 levels go up ?

Dont tell me to do a blood exam because that will not answer my question please...

[anoxicblaze]

My results were as follows. Do you think I should start taking an AI? I take 75mgx2 of test e a week.

17 BETA OESTRADIOL 127 pmol/L 34.59pg 0.00 - 191.99
-----------------

My full results were as follows:
TESTOSTERONE *40.5 nmol/L 1168ng. 7.60 - 31.40

FREE-TESTOSTERONE(CALCULATED) 0.896 nmol/L 25.8ng. 0.30 - 1.00

17 BETA OESTRADIOL 127 pmol/L 34.59pg 0.00 - 191.99

SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB 41.8 nmol/L 1205ng. 16.00 - 55.00



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mmigowski]

Thank you, buddy.

Thank you for the info. If early stages of gyno are noticed, would you recommend the use of either Nolvadex or Reloxifene only or with one of the AI’s too I.e Aromasin /Arimidex ? Thank you.

[kelkel]

Thank you for the info. If early stages of gyno are noticed, would you recommend the use of either Nolvadex or Reloxifene only or with one of the AI’s too I.e Aromasin/Arimidex? Thank you.

Yes to Ralox of Nolva. No to additional AI's.

[hammerheart]

I would suggest transdermal DHT (andractim) to anyone with gyno if able to get it. Two weeks on parental DHT (25mg die) and my chest is so much better looking than two months on 60mg ED raloxifene, without any of its sides. The hard lumps literally feel like melting.

Skin application has minor systemic effects but there's still chance of HPTA suppression though.

[arcboy]

Hello Austinite or any others that can answer my question.

I have ran a few cycles in the past with no side effects, this most recent cycle I used deca durabolin for the first time.

Throughout the cycle I was using aromasin and prami, but still started to develop gyno.

I increase my aromasin dosage and started in ralox as well, but even that could not stop the gyno completely.

Eventually got some letro and Pharma caber, even that did not stop the gyno.

Had bloodwork showing low e2 and basically 0 prolactin, but my progesterone was still high above range.

I started to experience almost all of the high progesterone sides you mentioned: hairloss, ED, depression, gyno...

Finally I dropped the deca a month ago and I am back on 100mg rest/wk but bloodwork is still showing high progesterone despite e2 and prolactin being under control.

Should I just wait until the progesterone slowly lowers as the deca continues to leave my body ?

I never experienced hair loss even with high test high masteron , but I am getting hairloss all over my scalp from deca.

Once progesterone lowers, does my hair stand a chance of growing back? And also, once prog is low again, would it be possible to fight this gyno with a SERM, or would surgery be the only option at this point?

Anyone could explain why progesterone still remains high even on TRT dose when e2 and prolactin are under control?

My progesterone was never high on TRT or any other cycle I’ve been on.

[The God Himself]

Hello Austinite or any others that can answer my question.

I have ran a few cycles in the past with no side effects, this most recent cycle I used deca durabolin for the first time.

Throughout the cycle I was using aromasin and prami, but still started to develop gyno.

I increase my aromasin dosage and started in ralox as well, but even that could not stop the gyno completely.

Eventually got some letro and Pharma caber, even that did not stop the gyno.

Had bloodwork showing low e2 and basically 0 prolactin, but my progesterone was still high above range.

I started to experience almost all of the high progesterone sides you mentioned: hairloss, ED, depression, gyno...

Finally I dropped the deca a month ago and I am back on 100mg rest/wk but bloodwork is still showing high progesterone despite e2 and prolactin being under control.

Should I just wait until the progesterone slowly lowers as the deca continues to leave my body ?

I never experienced hair loss even with high test high masteron , but I am getting hairloss all over my scalp from deca.

Once progesterone lowers, does my hair stand a chance of growing back? And also, once prog is low again, would it be possible to fight this gyno with a SERM, or would surgery be the only option at this point?

Anyone could explain why progesterone still remains high even on TRT dose when e2 and prolactin are under control?

My progesterone was never high on TRT or any other cycle I’ve been on.

Your hair is likely to grow back, as it did for me.
Good for you that you got bloodwork to assess.
I believe ED, hairloss and depression are the sides of low E2. Stop taking AI at this point and simply take a little higher dose of SERMs.
AIs are effective at PREVENTING gyno not REVERSING it.
You should manage your E2 better next time if youre gyno prone and avoid highly estrogenic compounds. Just run 10 mg nolva with your cycle to avoid gyno next time.
And the gold advice here is to run masteron with 19-nors, its great at blunting estrogenic and progestinic activity at receptor level.

[Nackel]

Hi,
What happens if you start developing gyno on cycle (for example austinites first steroid cycle)? Do you stop taking the steroids and go onto letrozole ? Does pct change at all or is it still the standard 4 week pct? How long do you stay on the letrozole for?

[ChainGang]

Yes? What?

[JaneDoe]

Hi,
What happens if you start developing gyno on cycle (for example austinites first steroid cycle)? Do you stop taking the steroids and go onto letrozole? Does pct change at all or is it still the standard 4 week pct? How long do you stay on the letrozole for?

Just take 40 mg of Nolvadex until the symptoms of gynecomastia disappear..

[JaneDoe]

Letrozole is a bad idea

[Kc2020]

Hi Everyone

I am new here, I have read a lot of post, but can find a solution want to do, hope someone can help me.


I been on anavar , superdrol and Test, and I have gyno and very sensitivt niples, no libido, limp dick, depress, mental breakdown.
I took first
Anavar 2 weeks 10 mg to 20 mg.
The 3 week superdrol 10 to 20 mg, ade Testeron guick release 2 times 100 ml
The 4 and 1/2 week superdrol som day 20 mg other day anavar with test 3 times 100 ml.
But because of the niples sore and hard, I stop at starte with 80 mg nolvadex for 4 days, down to 60 mg.
Then I went to take bloodtest.

Endokrinologi
Prolaktin;P 374 vs 86 - 324
Testosteron;P 4,0 vs 8,6 - 29
Thyrotropin [TSH];Pb 1,38 vs 0,40 - 4,80
Østradiol;P 0,10 vs 0,09 - 0,22

So my prolactin is to high and very low testosterone , and I had the last shoot just 6 days before.
I startet with me pct no HCG 5000 iu every week and nolva 40 mg and comid 50 mg every second day and cabergoline every 3 day 0.25, 2 weeks now, no libido, limp dick, the niples is still hard and sensitive my chest is very tend.
I have stop my Comid, its broke me down, mental breakdown.
3 days ago I try with 80 mg nolvadex, yesterday my upper chest hurts like hell, ist stops when I took 30 mg nolva and 0.25 caber.
It was over 12 hours between my 80 mg nolvades dose.
Don’t know want happen.
so should I stop the Pct and just use Caber or what to do
Its feels like my chest is going to transform to breast, sometimes

Can u please help me.

sorry about my bad english

[thenoone]

Hi,

I'm 26 years old.
I have a mild case of gyno on my right side since 18 years old. Never took any drugs so it's something that came out naturally during puberty and never resolved itself. A little less than a year ago the left side started catching up for some unknown reason so I went to an endo for some consultation, we ran a hormonal panel(twice) which came out just fine and an Ultrasound(twice) that showed a mild case of gyno on right side as expected, while the left side came out clear.

Overall, my hope was that the endo will be on my side and give me a prescription under his supervision for some kind of SERM at least a month or two to see if we can battle this issue without going to the extreme (surgery), but he said he doesn't want to be take the risk and be responsible for the possible side effects the SERM (Raloxifen or Tamoxifen ) can bring with it such as thrombosis or a stroke. He said the SERM will have no effect on the issue at this point so it's useless, the case is fairly minor, and he couldn't find any underlying reason for it appearing (idiopathic). I read here on the forums and some studies which all lead to the same idea that Raloxifen is the best solution is this case (60mg for a month at least) but now it seems that I will have to buy it on my own without any prescription and the endo just straight up told me I can consult a surgeon if I want to have that minor visual fix because he doesn't have any other solution for me.

As far as I know bodybuilders run a ton of SERMS after their cycles with no adverse side effect which means I can probably run a month course of Raloxi fairly safe just to see if it'll help my case to clear out this issue with drugs rather than going to surgery

Wanted to hear your guys insight here on this issue and maybe personal experience
Hopefully austinite will see this as well and can give his own knowledge and help

Thank you very much

[GearHeaded]

get the surgery and be done with it . you'll otherwise struggle with the issue for the rest of your life

[Kc2020]

Hi
I try too stop nolva, but cause very sore and 2 more lumps in my left, I am fuck, want can I do.

any one help me

I took 40 mg nolva, and sore its getting better.

should I try aromazin with Raloxifene or Letrozole

[ChasinGains]

Introduction

One of the topics always in question is how to manage estrogen and prolactin levels on cycle. This thread should serve as an informational base to educate users further. This is probably one of the more important topics as the lack of attention to these categories can result in some serious complications. Before we get into managing E2 and prolactin, it's really important that you understand exactly what they are, their purpose and how they become elevated. Once you have a clear understanding of their function, we will move onto managing them in a safe manner. Let's get cranking...

Estrogen in Men: Explanation and Purpose

Also referred to as Oestrogens, is a group of hormones found in various areas in the body. The main purpose of estrogen in men is to aid in the maturing your sperm, and to help regulate your libido. It's far more abundant in females and aids them in developing female characteristics. Some of these characteristics can develop in males should estrogen be found in excess. But there's more purpose to estrogen that we'll be discussing.

Estrogen is biosynthesized. Meaning, it is formed by another source in the body. It's a product of testosterone conversion. Testosterone is converted into estrogen with the help of an enzyme called the "Aromatase". The amount of aromatase enzymes in a body matters. Not everyone has the same amount. But it's mostly found in fat cells. The more fat that you carry, the more you estrogen you will convert. One of many reasons not to cycle anabolic steroids when you're overweight. Make sense now?

You probably heard different references to it. Such as E2 or estradiol. Estrogen, as a whole, is comprised of several sex hormones. These are as follows:

1. Estrone (E1)
2. Estradiol (E2)
3. Estriol (E3)

You notice Estradiol or E2 is in bold above. This is because E2 is what matter in a male. E2 is 10 times more potent than E1, and 100 times more potent than E3. This is why males get an Estradiol test, or better yet; a Sensitive Estradiol assay. We will discuss the importance of these tests later in this article.

Your estrogen levels should be in range to maintain a healthy libido and avoid side effects. This is one of the most important things to factor into cycle management. Levels that are too low can cause problems for you. Levels that are too high can cause serious complications. So we need a balance here. Let's have a look at the issues you'll experience with the highs and lows of estrogen levels...

Low Estrogen Side Effects:

- Osteoporosis (weakened bones) ; (long-term low levels)
- Poor sex drive
- Fatigue
- Lethargy
- Skin quality diminishes
- Depression
- Poor sense of wellbeing & poor quality of life

High Estrogen Side Effects:

- Gynecomastia
- Anxiety & panic attacks
- Depression
- Erectile dysfunction
- Water retention
- High blood pressure
- Loss of balance/instability/dizziness
- Respiratory related concerns
- Irritability
- Low libido
- Insomnia
- Prostate related issues
- Crying like a little girl and being emotional all the time

So you see, neither high nor low are healthy. And since we've already established the fact that the more body fat you carry, the more aromatase enzymes you have; you now understand why it's best to cycle when body fat is low. As you look at these side effects, you can use this list of concerns to self-diagnose the possibility of "out of range" estrogen levels. Hopefully that would trigger the need to have your blood levels checked. But keep reading because we're going to discuss blood work later in this article.

How To Control Estrogen

First of all, while I listed the side effects above, which also serve as symptoms; I really don't have a "lazy man's guide" for controlling estrogen levels. Blood work is really the only way to accurately manage your E2 levels. Otherwise, we would simply observe symptoms and self diagnosis becomes a guessing game. A dangerous one at that. But before we get into blood testing, let's talk about methods used to control estrogen while you're on a steroid cycle with aromatizable compounds.

Aromatase Inhibitors (AI)

There are several inhibitors available for you to use. The main purpose for all of these drugs is to maintain a healthy level of estrogen. While they work in different ways, they all focus on lowering or maintaining estrogen levels. Since we just learned that the Aromatase enzyme is what synthesized estrogen, the name "Aromatase Inhibitor" suddenly makes sense, right? AI's do exactly as their title suggests; Inhibits the aromatase activity in your body. Now we need to find out what inhibitors are available and how they work...

There are several inhibitors available on the market today. Not all of them are made equal.

Types of Aromatase Inhibitors:

1. Selective
2. Non Selective

For our purpose, we only need to be using Selective compounds because Non Selective compounds such as Cytadren and Teslac work differently and are generally pretty weak. So to save time, we will not be discussing Non Selective inhibitors since they are not relevant to our purpose.

Types of Selective Inhibitors:

1. Reversible inhibition
2. Irreversible inhibition (aka suicide inhibitor)

Reversible inhibition means that the aromatase enzymes' activity is blocked, but the enzyme remains alive and intact. Irreversible, or suicide inhibitors kill the enzyme. It no longer exists. Please remember, just because the enzyme is dead, does not mean you will not develop more enzymes. Contrary; you continue to develop aromatase enzymes. By either killing or blocking aromatase enzymes, the conversion of testosterone to estrogen is blocked. And if dosed properly, eventually your levels drop to a reasonable and healthy range.

Available and Popular Reversible AI's:

- Anastrozole (Arimidex )
- Letrozole (femara)
- Formestane (Lentaron)
- Vorozole (Revizor)

Available irreversible AI's (Suicide inhibitors):

- Exemestane (Aromasin )

So there you have it. These are generally your options for lowering your Estrogen levels and maintaining a healthy state in the E2 department. You could also use some over-the-counter products. Some have been proven to work well. Depending on the individual, as we all react differently to these drugs, you may need an extra boost with an over the counter product. Pill forms are hard to split up properly sometimes and the addition of OTC drugs can help with the balance without going overboard.

Natural Over The Counter AI's:

- DIM (Diindolylmethane) - I use this with TRT, very effective.
- Resveratrol (pretty weak)
- Chrysin (better than Resveratrol, but still weak)
- Zinc (Decent, but an effective dose is also not healthy)

In my experience, it's always been proven (through blood work) that DIM is the most effective natural OTC product available today. Coupled with an AI, it can do some good for you. My TRT protocol is now managed so well, that I don't even use an AI, I use DIM solely. Works perfect for me.

Inhibitor Dosing & Information

I'll only discuss the common ones that are available through our site sponsors. If you need additional info on any others please let me know and I will do my best to deliver more information. So for the purpose of accessibility and this article, we will discuss dosing with Arimidex, letrozole , Aromasin and DIM.

Dosing below are STARTING DOSES based on a basic 500 mg Testosterone Cycle. Once you get blood work mid-cycle, you should be able to confirm if that dose is working, or if it needs adjusting. Never ever reply on my word or anyone elses for that matter. Always look at blood work to confirm, but this has generally proven effective for most. So I'm merely sharing my personal experiences with you over the years.

Please remember: Everyone is different and doses may vary, only blood work can identify proper dosage.

Informative Data On Mentioned Inhibitors:

*** Anastrozole (Arimidex)

- Half Life: 50 hours
- Recommended dose: 0.25 mg Every Other Day. (for a basic 500mg Testosterone cycle)
- Common side effects: Hot flashes, joint discomfort, stomach discomfort, diarrhea, elevated cholesterol levels.
- Drug interactions: Lowers the effectiveness of DHEA. Double your dose of DHEA in the presence of Arimidex.
- Note: Drug interactions updated 08/16/2013. No adverse interaction between Arimidex & Nolvadex. Thanks to member: 100% for this study.


*** Exemestane (Aromasin)

- Half Life: 24 hours
- Recommended dose: 25 mg Every Day.
- Common side effects: Hot flashes, fatigue, insomnia, headache, depression, elevated bilirubin, elevated liver enzymes, alopecia, back pain, chest pain, constipation, lymphopenia .
- Drug interactions: Lowers the effectiveness of DHEA. Double your dose of DHEA in the presence of Aromasin.


*** Letrozole (Femara)

- Half Life: 48 hours
- Recommended dose: 50 mcg (micrograms) daily. Do not abuse this drug. Typical milligram doses are nonsense and likely underdosed gear.
- Common side effects: Hot flashes, fatigue, insomnia, headache, depression, cough, flu-like-symptoms, elevated bilirubin, vision disturbance, elevated chromium, loss of appetite, stomach discomfort. letro is one of the most powerful AI's out there. Be cautious especially with this one. It's power could be good but also could be bad as it can easily crash your E2 fairly quickly, rendering you useless. Blood work blood work!!
- Drug interactions: Lowers the effectiveness of both Nolvadex and DHEA. Double your dose of DHEA/Nolvadex in the presence of letrozole.


*** Diindolylmethane (DIM)

- Half Life: 7 hours
- Recommended dose: 150 mg Twice Daily (for a total of 300 mg daily).
- Common side effects: At the doses above, there really aren't any side effects. But some are possible such as headaches and nausea.
- Drug interactions: No known drug interactions todate.


Prolactin in Men: Explanation and Purpose

First thing... there is no such thing as "prolactin-induced" gynecomastia. I've heard this one too many times and later in this segment you will understand why. Now, prolactin is another sex hormone and is secreted by the pituitary gland in your brain. Although it's found in both males and females, it's main purpose is for milk production for females. The fact is, males have no use for prolactin that we know of today. Why, God, why?? Anyway, while low levels are not harmful, high levels certainly are. So let's take a look at the concerns with higher than normal prolactin levels in men...

Effects of High Prolactin Levels in Men:

- Adverse Testicular Interference
- Lowers natural testosterone
- Lower sperm count (to infertility levels)
- long term elevation can cause erectile dysfunction (sometimes short term)
- Low Libido
- Breast tenderness
- Male lactation
- Low ejaculate volume

19-Nortestosterone steroid such as nandrolone and Trenbolone can cause prolactin levels to become elevated MAINLY with the presence of excess estrogen. They are NOT a direct cause of high prolactin. While using prolactin inhibiting drugs will resolve issues, your first line of defense is controlling estrogen, as elevated estrogen can boost the effect of prolactin increase. It's not uncommon to prevent prolactin increase with the use of an AI. But the doses of 19-Nor steroids today, may prove that is somewhat ineffective. Leading to the necessity of having a secondary (and direct) compound to combat the effects.

The way it works is entirely complicated and I couldn't even think of a way to put it in laymans terms. But in short, 19-Nor interaction with the estrogen receptors will boost prolactin secretion. This is why it's important to control estrogen first, and prolactin second. Also why I recommend that you have a secondary combat drug "on hand" and in some cases, used on cycle. You might wonder why I say "on hand", since I earlier said that low prolactin is not harmful. Well, these drugs have some fairly heavy side effects and if not used properly can really affect your progress on cycle. So it's OK to wait until needed for the sake of sanity. But I want to emphasize this again... if you have high prolactin and/or lactating, it's a near 100% confirmation that you failed to control your estrogen levels.

How To Control Prolactin

To control prolactin, or elevated prolactin, we use drugs that activate dopamine. Dopamine is a chemical launched by cells in the brain with the purpose of signaling nerve cells. So these drugs we're looking at are dopamine agonists. There are several things that affect prolactin but dopamine is the dominant one that makes the overall difference.

Dopamine works with the pituitary. They're friends, you see. But sometimes the pituitary gets a little excited and out of control, so Dopamine pays a visit to the pituitary and binds to the Dopamine receptors and slows prolactin production down to a reasonable level. This is all done with internal communication. What a nice friend to have. Make sense, folks? What a spectacular system we have. Even more reason to respect your body.

Now that we know how prolactin elevates and how to fix the problem, let's have a look at common drugs used for prolactin control. I'm getting kind of bored with this article so I'll keep this short since I still have to cover progesterone.

Common "Anti-Prolactin" (dopamine agonist) drugs available:

- Pramipexole (Mirapex)
- Cabergoline (Dostinex)
- Bromocriptine (Parlodel)
- Pergolide (Permax)

Informative Data On Mentioned Inhibitors:

*** Pramipexole (Mirapex)

- Half Life: 8 hours
- Recommended dose: 0.25 mg Every Night. Take right before you fall asleep. If after 3 days you can handle the dose just fine, increase to 0.5 mg. Then again to 0.75 and finally to 1 mg. Rarely more than 1 mg is needed.
- Common side effects: Nausea, dizziness, vomiting, insomnia, constipation, confusion, visual disturbance, hallucinations, headaches, frequent urination, congestion, achiness.
- Drug interactions: Do not use alongside other dopamine agonists. Avoid antihistamines altogether as the combination will have adverse effects on your central nervous system.


*** Cabergoline(Dostinex)

- Half Life: 65 hours
- Recommended dose: 0.25 mg Every Third Day. If after 4 doses you feel good, increase to 0.5mg every third day.
- Common side effects: Same as Prami for the most part, but can also cause anxiety and compulsive behavior.
- Drug interactions: Avoid anorexiants (appetite suppressors) as the combo can cause severe levels of serotonin. also avoid other dopamine agonists. Avoid Codeine because the combination renders the drug ineffective and lowers blood pressure too much.


Progesterone in Men: Explanation and Purpose

Progesterone is another steroid hormone in our bodies. Most people think this is only useful to women, however, unlike prolactin, there are actual benefits to healthy levels of progesterone. It "counters" some of the adverse effects stemming from estrogen. For those of us off cycle, it's also a precursor for testosterone. Also cortisone via the adrenal glands. It's produced from cholesterol where it's first pregnenolone and then progesterone. In fact, many men are prescribed progesterone-increasing drugs to elevate levels into the upper range for a more healthy state.

If it's so great, why don't we cause it to produce even more? Well, out of range levels can cause complications. This hormone is beneficial but only in healthy ranges. Beyond that, it becomes an enemy. So our goal is to keep progesterone in range so that it remains a "friendly" hormone so to speak. Now let's have a quick look at the concerns we will face, as men, in the presence of elevated progesterone levels...

Side Effects Of High Progesterone Levels:

- Erectile Dysfunction
- Depression
- Lethargy
- Fatigue
- Lower Libido
- Hair Loss
- Gynecomastia
- Muscle Atrophy

You see how serious high levels are? We need to maintain a healthy level of progesterone for many reasons as outlined above. But I want to cover gynecomastia for a minute because I want you to understand the cause.

Progesterone increases because too many receptors are activated by progestins. Progestins are compounds that act on these receptors, such as Trenbolone and nandrolone or any 19-nor steroid. This is what causes progesterone to increase and why you see the increase when these steroids are introduced. You never need protection with other steroids because others are not progestins. Make sense?

Can you guess what I'm going to say next? That's right. It's worse in the presence of excess estrogen! Especially in the breasts as it acts to promote breast tissue alongside estrogen by increasing 1GF-1 in the breast. Also, progesterone directly stimulates estrogenic activity at the mammary tissues. So here we have a semi-direct influence. High progesterone increases estrogenic activity and results in gynecomastia. But once again I want to reiterate, your first line of defense is controlling estrogen!

Treating elevated progesterone levels can be done via Selective Progesterone Receptor Modulators (SPRM). For example, Asoprisnil; also known as J867. SPRM's are quite aggressive and should only be used in extreme cases and under a doctor's supervision. So I do not recommend them because they could easily cause your levels to plummet, causing other issues. So instead, I recommend that you use an AI to simply put an end to progesterone stimulating estrogenic activity. So even though this has a direct effect, the effect would lesson in the presence of less estrogen.

I highly recommend Aromasin as the AI of choice when running 19-Nor steroids.

Myth: Nolvadex may not be used with 19-Nor. FALSE! Nolva/Tamox is a mixed estrogen receptor agonist/antagonist. Some tissue (not all), upregulation of progesterone receptor can happen; for example in the mucous membrane because it's estro-sensitive. But our concern is the breast. And Nolva blocks the estrogen receptor. Progesterone receptor is then synthesized. Blocked estrogen receptor = down regulated progesterone receptor.

Gynecomastia: Explanation and how to treat it

This is simply the enlargement of breast tissue in males. Your body is basically adopting female characteristics. As mentioned earlier, this is caused by excess estrogen and can be aggravated directly by excess progesterone. There are several proven methods to reverse gynecomastia. Some are more effective than others. I'll mention the most common ones.

Gynecomastia reversing drugs (ordered by effectiveness):

1. Raloxifene
2. Tamoxifen
3. Lasofoxifene

Do you notice a common denominator? They're all Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERM). But why have I not listed the other popular SERMs such as Clomiphene (clomid) and Toremifene? Well, although the similarities are abundant, these other SERMs do more stimulation at the pituitary (brain), where the SERMs I mentioned are much stronger and effective at the breast tissue. This is why they are to be used in gynecomastia reduction/reversing. I'll discuss dosing for the compounds I've personally used.

Raloxifene: Dose Raloxifene at 60 mg, up to 80mg daily. Do not go up and down with the dose. Start with 60 mg for 6 weeks. If you do not notice much difference, increase to 80 mg and stay at 80 mg until gynecomastia is reversed.

Tamoxifen: Dose at 40 mg every day for 1 week. After that, drop dose to 20 mg and use that every day until gynecomastia is reversed.

About Reversing With letrozole: Yes, it can be done. However, I do not recommend this method. Letrozole is a fairly harsh compound and the protocols I've seen out there are wild. Multiple milligrams of this compound time after time is a surefire way to crush your E2 levels. Then you're left miserable and hating life. Do not use this compound. However, if you are not convinced, please be super cautious with it. The milgram + suggestions are mind boggling to me, I don't care how many people say it works for them. I promise you, most of these folks are not monitoring blood work and this entire deal is a guessing game.

First of all, if you insist on Letro, I would run letro at NO MORE than 100 mcg daily. Yes, that's MICROgrams. Letro took me from 47 ng/dL to 2 ng/dL in 10 days. That's how powerful and difficult to manage this compound is.

Final note regarding gynecomastia reversal... This process takes time. Too many things factor into this so giving you an estimate on how long it takes makes zero sense. Everyone is different and every gynecomastia case is different. Main factors are the level of estrogen present, body fat percentage and the age of your gynecomastia. All that would render an estimate of time to reverse it useless. You must however, have patients. This is not a quick process at all. Not even close. In some cases it can take up to 9 months, heck even longer. But... My experience was that I noticed a big difference around week 6, and was able to completely reverse it before the end of the 3rd month.

Blood Work For E2 and Gynecomastia Prevention

Obviously you've noted by now that controlling estrogen is the main key to any negative issues that surround gynecomastia. Since this is your first line of defense, you'll need to have your E2 checked mid cycle to verify your AI doses are actually working and keeping you in range. Even with progestins, your chances of gynecomastia are near zero with estrogen levels in range. But even the slightest elevation can aggravate the issue in the presence of other compounds.

Now, lots of folks seem to order a simple Estradiol panel. This is OK but it's really not accurate. Especially in the presence of high conversion from Testosterone to Estrogen. Women have very high estrogen levels and a simple Estradiol test will suffice for them. Men however, are very sensitive to estrogen related issues and require a more accurate result. That would be a Sensitive or Ultrasensitive E2 assay. Your Estradiol result is not as accurate. So while you might think you're in range, you may in fact be above range. Slightly above range is not that big of a deal for a lot of folks, but some folks are super sensitive and are "Gyno Prone", so if you're not super experienced, get a sensitive panel.

Have a powerful day,

~ Austinite

Really great thread and hopefully you will see this comment, is “fatty gyno” reversible? I have gyno well it’s never actually been diagnosed as gyno I have never been the doctors about it but I have had puffy nipples since 14years old, but my nipples don’t have any hard lumps and have never been sore

[ChasinGains]

Hi,

I'm 26 years old.
I have a mild case of gyno on my right side since 18 years old. Never took any drugs so it's something that came out naturally during puberty and never resolved itself. A little less than a year ago the left side started catching up for some unknown reason so I went to an endo for some consultation, we ran a hormonal panel(twice) which came out just fine and an Ultrasound(twice) that showed a mild case of gyno on right side as expected, while the left side came out clear.

Overall, my hope was that the endo will be on my side and give me a prescription under his supervision for some kind of SERM at least a month or two to see if we can battle this issue without going to the extreme (surgery), but he said he doesn't want to be take the risk and be responsible for the possible side effects the SERM (Raloxifen or Tamoxifen ) can bring with it such as thrombosis or a stroke. He said the SERM will have no effect on the issue at this point so it's useless, the case is fairly minor, and he couldn't find any underlying reason for it appearing (idiopathic). I read here on the forums and some studies which all lead to the same idea that Raloxifen is the best solution is this case (60mg for a month at least) but now it seems that I will have to buy it on my own without any prescription and the endo just straight up told me I can consult a surgeon if I want to have that minor visual fix because he doesn't have any other solution for me.

As far as I know bodybuilders run a ton of SERMS after their cycles with no adverse side effect which means I can probably run a month course of Raloxi fairly safe just to see if it'll help my case to clear out this issue with drugs rather than going to surgery

Wanted to hear your guys insight here on this issue and maybe personal experience
Hopefully austinite will see this as well and can give his own knowledge and help

Thank you very much

Did you get this sorted mate? I have the same myself, no lumps or anything though and never been sensitive, had since I was 14, I am currently cutting because I have never been a really low body fat, Iv had abs but my abs show at probably around 15% body fat, hoping once I get around 10% that the issue will either be resolved and it’s just fatty tissue or it will be more obvious and can see exactly what it is

[navjit]

Hatts off.
But i have a question and want to reconfirm it again.
If i have control my estrogen levels then no other compounds can cause gyno.

And you also write there is no prolactin induced gyno, but on intertnet everybody and every thing is saying opposite to your words.

[TheDreamer]

DIM is good with aromasin then? I am going to buy it.

[Rooroo22]

if i take novladex on cycle until gyno starts to go away would that desensitize me when taking the novladex for my PCT?????

[Fit4Florida]

Rooroo22, definitely not an expert in this area but I have been doing a lot of reading, note taking and listening in prep for my next cycle and I haven’t heard one person write about taking Nolvadex mid cycle. Depending on short/long ester cycle Nolva taken for PCT between 3 days to 2 weeks post cycle therapy .
As I said no expert but def. research that one a bit before committing as it may destroy those gains. I’m sure the more experienced can help you out a lil further. My .02

[Alexdenn05]

So I ran into a guy I've seen periodically at the gym, and started to discuss a cycle. Apparently he was "well adversed, " in cycles and stated the above procedure were a waste of time and should not wait to start before I acquired all the pct's. It hit me when he mentioned about crashing after a cycle how important pct was; anyway, I directed him here.

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[Dylanm023]

My first test cycle I gained 12-15lbs depending on the day in like a month. I figured most of it water weight so I thought no big deal it’ll go away with time. I started to have sensitive nipples, no sex drive, insomnia and after some research decided to start dim. It did work and all those side affects went away including the water weight but I feel dramatically weaker now and I’m still in cycle. Should I stop taking it? I’m doing 300mg daily and sitting at 195.

[Beefcheeks7]

Anyone know where austinitns thread on vitamins and making her own prework is?

[RewardingLabor]

AUSTINITE PLEASE HELP. I don't want to get hurt anymore. I don't want to learn the hard way. I don't want to randomly discover hair on my eyeballs one morning. Please tell me what is really going to happen. I'm still almost ten years later paying for not knowing everything that could happen and what to do if it did happen from another unrelated experience.

I sifted through all the old threads on gynecomastia including yours and it looks like Raloxifene is the best I can do in terms of safety and effectiveness in getting rid of a dime sized hard lump. However I want to be prepared for ALL the likely side effects and there is very very little info on what else can happen. What do I do If my bones overgrow? Do men even have those receptors on their bones for this? What do I do if I get "joint pain"? It's so incredibly vague what does that even mean? Can I take a blood thinner for the thrombosis? Which one is safe? Should I do something else?

Can I increase the safety by injecting a smaller does directly at the site? Or perhaps put it in a cream/oil and rub it only on the effected area? Am I really the first guy to think of this, nobody ANYWHERE has even considered it?

Is there some sort of anti-Raloxifene that can just clear it out of my system if something goes wrong?

Here is a list of "common" side effects from webmd: which ones are actually reasonable to expect?
Infection
Pharyngitis
Sinusitis
Cystitis
Urinary tract infection
Vaginitis (impossible for me)
Drug-induced hot flash (Is this possible for men?)
Cramps in legs
Fever
Flu-like symptoms
Skin rash
Peripheral edema
Chest pain
Depression
Migraine
Laryngitis
Pneumonia
Gastrointestinal irritation
Gastroenteritis
Biliary calculus

EDIT:
Double checked the list of serm's for a more modern one that is breast only and didn't see anything yet except possibly Lasofoxifene for which there is no available data to me though there was a study that completed comparing it to raloxifene in 2005. While doing so also found an indication that both
raloxifene and tormefine may "treat prostate cancer" does that mean I would need to protect my prostate if I don't have prostate cancer? How do I do that?

Also is there a way to protect the thrombosis in lungs and eyes that is different from ones from the liver?
Is anything necessary to protect kidneys?

[almostgone]

I can’t figure out how to start a thread

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rs-%2A%2A.html