Opinions from experienced members

**Hrgaland** · 08-13-2013, 04:11 PM

Greetings!
I will try to make this thread as short as possible, but I can't promise I'll manage to do it.
As I said in New member post, I'm 40 yo, but still feeling as 30. In last 2 weeks I was scrolling trough this board, trying to find right answers and info, and I can tell you honestly- my head is about to explode! So many info, sometimes totally opposite. Of course that opinion from vets and knowledge members have more 'weight', but still...

Ok, here it is. The main reason why I am here is that I'm trying to find out should I ever use some AAS knowing my history with cancer. I had testis cancer 5 years ago, and no matter that I have found some relative post here, in none of those I didn't get clear answer. Some say: yes, some: better not. So, I'll post my data and the cycle I would choose for myself.
I know that my test levels are lower than they use to be, but that's normal knowing I'm 40 and that my left nut has lost his twin brother 5 years ago. But, I didn't have any sides from low T, and I still had enough energy for everyday obligations (2 jobs, baby kid, wife, workouts...). Of course I was dead meat on the end of the day, but who wouldn't be. But, lately I'm starting to feel that I can't keep up any more with that rhythm. I realize that I need much more energy and training to achieve my goals. And time. That I don't have any more. So, I need some boost. Because this year I didn't get where I wanted. Everything was going to slow.

My workouts during last 15-20 years are more or less the same - I workout with weights, some cardio, some boxing from time to time (I much more prefer wrestling but my knees and LS were injured during my serious time of training wrestling). I workout from New Years Eve to the end of the summer, and then mostly doing nothing all up to New Year. And because my body is mix between mesomorph and ectomorph I have no problem to become lean (never more than 12%, but that was my goal) in those 6-7 month of training and to maintain that with the raise of BF up to 18 to max 20% before new interval. And that was fine with me. Also, in that interval of no training I was always trying to heal some part of the body that I messed up during training. So it was ok for me to chill for few months.

So, here comes data:
My status was:
Ca testis l. dex. Meta lymphonodarum retroperitonealis- stage ll B
Testis carcinoma: mixed germ cell tumor- 40% teratoma maturum, 30% yolk sac + 20% ca embrionale + 10% seminoma
Post orchidectomiam and 5 cycles of chemotherapia (last one was terrible)
5 years clean. Living normal life. Eating mostly healthy. Few drinks in few months, nothing hard core.
My goals is to reach my 12% BF and to get in shape faster and easier than last year or two.

BF now 15%
High 185cm (6'06'' I think)
Weight 98 kg (216 lbs)
mesomorph/ectomorph
40 year old

My cycle:
I wanted to go only with Anavar , but have found here on the board that Anavar-only cycles are destructive to the body without the inclusion of some form of Testosterone . Obviously Anavar necessitates the use of Testosterone in at least a TRT dose in order to maintain normal physiological function in the presence of a suppressed/shutdown HPTA as a result of Anavar use. And Anavar do shut down (not so mild as many think).
I want to go easy, especially when I found out about one study on this board which says that 100mg Test + 20mg Anavar put on more weight than 600mg Test alone. If that's the truth, and study says it is, why use more? It's cheaper and safer. My liver will be grateful.

Testosterone Cypionate 100mg/week (twice) for 10 weeks
Anavar 20mg/ed for 8 weeks (3-10)
Aromasin at 10mg/ed as AI, board says it will keep most people estrogen level under 50pg/ml on cycle
Tore as 40/20/20/20? as PCT, one week after cycle
(Tore dosage is the biggest enigma for me)

So, this cycle maybe seems mild to you, but I think I don't need more to achieve my goals. If it will be needed, I will easily add more juice.
Please, make your opinions. Thank you all on the time spended reading my post. And sorry on my English.

**Lunk1** · 08-13-2013, 04:38 PM

My opinion is blood work and determine if TRT is a viable solution. Then worry about cycling.

**SlinKing** · 08-13-2013, 04:53 PM

Steroid use has definitely been linked to an increased risk of prostate cancer. this is about all i know

**MuscleInk** · 08-13-2013, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Hrgaland

Greetings!
I will try to make this thread as short as possible, but I can't promise I'll manage to do it.
As I said in New member post, I'm 40 yo, but still feeling as 30. In last 2 weeks I was scrolling trough this board, trying to find right answers and info, and I can tell you honestly- my head is about to explode! So many info, sometimes totally opposite. Of course that opinion from vets and knowledge members have more 'weight', but still...

Ok, here it is. The main reason why I am here is that I'm trying to find out should I ever use some AAS knowing my history with cancer. I had testis cancer 5 years ago, and no matter that I have found some relative post here, in none of those I didn't get clear answer. Some say: yes, some: better not. So, I'll post my data and the cycle I would choose for myself.
I know that my test levels are lower than they use to be, but that's normal knowing I'm 40 and that my left nut has lost his twin brother 5 years ago. But, I didn't have any sides from low T, and I still had enough energy for everyday obligations (2 jobs, baby kid, wife, workouts...). Of course I was dead meat on the end of the day, but who wouldn't be. But, lately I'm starting to feel that I can't keep up any more with that rhythm. I realize that I need much more energy and training to achieve my goals. And time. That I don't have any more. So, I need some boost. Because this year I didn't get where I wanted. Everything was going to slow.

My workouts during last 15-20 years are more or less the same - I workout with weights, some cardio, some boxing from time to time (I much more prefer wrestling but my knees and LS were injured during my serious time of training wrestling). I workout from New Years Eve to the end of the summer, and then mostly doing nothing all up to New Year. And because my body is mix between mesomorph and ectomorph I have no problem to become lean (never more than 12%, but that was my goal) in those 6-7 month of training and to maintain that with the raise of BF up to 18 to max 20% before new interval. And that was fine with me. Also, in that interval of no training I was always trying to heal some part of the body that I messed up during training. So it was ok for me to chill for few months.

So, here comes data:
My status was:
Ca testis l. dex. Meta lymphonodarum retroperitonealis- stage ll B
Testis carcinoma: mixed germ cell tumor- 40% teratoma maturum, 30% yolk sac + 20% ca embrionale + 10% seminoma
Post orchidectomiam and 5 cycles of chemotherapia (last one was terrible)
5 years clean. Living normal life. Eating mostly healthy. Few drinks in few months, nothing hard core.
My goals is to reach my 12% BF and to get in shape faster and easier than last year or two.

BF now 15%
High 185cm (6'06'' I think)
Weight 98 kg (216 lbs)
mesomorph/ectomorph
40 year old

My cycle:
I wanted to go only with Anavar , but have found here on the board that Anavar-only cycles are destructive to the body without the inclusion of some form of Testosterone . Obviously Anavar necessitates the use of Testosterone in at least a TRT dose in order to maintain normal physiological function in the presence of a suppressed/shutdown HPTA as a result of Anavar use. And Anavar do shut down (not so mild as many think).
I want to go easy, especially when I found out about one study on this board which says that 100mg Test + 20mg Anavar put on more weight than 600mg Test alone. If that's the truth, and study says it is, why use more? It's cheaper and safer. My liver will be grateful.

Testosterone Cypionate 100mg/week (twice) for 10 weeks
Anavar 20mg/ed for 8 weeks (3-10)
Aromasin at 10mg/ed as AI, board says it will keep most people estrogen level under 50pg/ml on cycle
Tore as 40/20/20/20? as PCT, one week after cycle
(Tore dosage is the biggest enigma for me)

So, this cycle maybe seems mild to you, but I think I don't need more to achieve my goals. If it will be needed, I will easily add more juice.
Please, make your opinions. Thank you all on the time spended reading my post. And sorry on my English.

Glad to hear you recovered from the ordeal. Fortunately stage IIa/b diseases have good outcomes with patients recovering completely to remission and very little refractory diseases.

Removal of the testes is also the gold standard for prostate cancer that has metastasized to local lymph nodes (pelvic girdle) although most men opt for androgen suppression therapy - also called chemical castration. PSA < 4.0ng/ml and a castrate level of 50ng/ml or less of testosterone are best predictors of overall survival and progression free disease in prostate adenocarcinomas. Secondary suppression of adrenal glands and treatment with flutamide which crosses the prostate fossa membrane and blocks androgen-prostate binding sites are often required.

Have you had your serum testosterone levels checked recently? What were they at? Lunk1 is correct, have your normal levels checked before starting any TRT or considering a cycle. I would expect your levels to be slightly diminished compared to other men your age with intact gonads. It's likely you had the full testical and spermatochord removed on the right side. This will effect your natural testosterone production but to what extent, it's difficult to predict. Everyone is different with respect to recovery from orchidectomy.

**Hrgaland** · 08-14-2013, 06:09 AM

Thanks guys.
MuscleInk- I was looking forward to see a reply from you - I think you wrote once that you are doctor. I also work in hospital, as a radiology tech, but this stuff is not my area at all. As i wrote, I think my test levels are solid considering I had orchidectomy and that I'm 40. But to be sue will make that test in Friday. Will let you know. Thanks!

**jimmyinkedup** · 08-14-2013, 06:24 AM

I will be following this thread. What an amazing resource this place is. Please do keep it updated!

**Hrgaland** · 08-14-2013, 06:33 AM

also want to say that local doctors are new in TRT. My good friend has gone trough double orchidectomy, also his lymph tree along the spine, 1/3 of the lung removed... and now he's on TRT. But from his story he's is receiving his terapy all at once, causing him to feel mood swings, sweating, horniness etc. I will call him today and ask him about the dosage he's receiving, but if I know that it will be the best for him to get his trt in divided doses, why they don't know that??

AD · 08-14-2013, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Hrgaland

I will call him today and ask him about the dosage he's receiving, but if I know that it will be the best for him to get his trt in divided doses, why they don't know that??

doctors tend to be conservative and compassionate people. they believe that most patients don't like to take injections. the long esters of testosterone are created by drug companies to specifically serve this purpose, so that patients get poked less frequently.

**Hrgaland** · 08-15-2013, 11:08 AM

That's good thinking. And very positive way of view from you

but if you ask me to compare sides( and his wife- she was very unhappy) with one more injection during month... I choose inj. And he was did it by himself at home.
I just spoke with my friend- he said he was getting Test depo, every month. Then he switched the doktor and now he's getting 'something' that he don't know the name??? Haha, that's my friend. Scedulle of injection is totaly weird: 1 month after first, then 2 month after second, then 3 month pause beetween. He will let me know the name of it in 10 days, but it sound awsome for TRT patients.

AD · 08-15-2013, 05:28 PM

The longest ester available now is Nebido. It is supposed to last 4 months per pin after the initial loading period.

**Hrgaland** · 08-16-2013, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by AD

The longest ester available now is Nebido. It is supposed to last 4 months per pin after the initial loading period.

Whoa! 4 month!!?? TRT people will be happy with this info.
I'm going to make serum test levels in few hours. Will let you know...

AD · 08-16-2013, 03:24 AM

I don't know if it's available in every country, but I do know it's bloody expensive. Ask your doctor about it. Good luck

**Lunk1** · 08-16-2013, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by AD

I don't know if it's available in every country, but I do know it's bloody expensive. Ask your doctor about it. Good luck

Im reading a lot of mixed reports on Nebido

**Back In Black** · 08-16-2013, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by AD

The longest ester available now is Nebido. It is supposed to last 4 months per pin after the initial loading period.

Average shot timing is 10 weeks I believe, not read anything of anybody going over 12 weeks but it may happen. This is after the initial loading which is 1 shot, then another after 6 weeks.

AD · 08-16-2013, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Back In Black

Average shot timing is 10 weeks I believe, not read anything of anybody going over 12 weeks but it may happen. This is after the initial loading which is 1 shot, then another after 6 weeks.

Hey I think you're right. Just went to read the product information again. It is given once every 10-14 wks. That's 3 months. Not 4. My mistake.

http://www.nebido.com/en/hcp/product...bido/index.php

**Back In Black** · 08-16-2013, 08:33 AM

It's still a bloody long time

**Hrgaland** · 08-17-2013, 04:52 AM

I just got my test level results: they are as I thought - 13.23 nmol/L (9.9-23.7 are normal). Not very high, but not ideal. As we know that I'm mono

and have 40 years on my back, it's ok. Also I would like to add that in past month I didn't do stuff by the book considering my test levels and well being in general ( summer holidays without workouts- not even swimming 'coz I was baby siting my litlee sweet monster-that includes little sleep in general also. Was not eating healtly, was drinking some alcohol, was sick for 7 days (fever, vomiting and hard core diarrhaea) and lost 10 lbs during that period 'coz I was driving my bike for 2 days and 12 hours per day in the middle of my sicknes days- had to return home from another part of Europe, eated only 3 boiled potatos and half a bread on the way - trust me when I say it was no easy at all).
So, considering all mentioned above, I'm not surprised with levels.
The main question still remains: shold I or not consider about cycle?

**Hrgaland** · 08-17-2013, 12:52 PM

I just have found out that Testosterone Cypionate can also increase the levels of IGF-1. And that's not desirable for man with testicular cancer history.
Testosterone Propionate also do that, but I can't find anything on that subject for Test Enanthate , so I will put it in my possible cycle instead of Test Cyp.

**Hrgaland** · 08-17-2013, 12:53 PM

Anybody have any info about Test E. raising IGF-1??

**Hrgaland** · 08-20-2013, 03:04 PM

it seems to me that this forum board is just too big- so many new threads every day. So many questions unanswered.

**Lunk1** · 08-20-2013, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hrgaland

it seems to me that this forum board is just too big- so many new threads every day. So many questions unanswered.

What is your question. Yes some go unanswered but it's rare. To answer your question in Post 18, all tst does the same thing. E,C Prop etc. It's all test. The only thing that nchanges is the active life of the compound do to the attached ester that is cleaved off before it enters the blood stream.

**Hrgaland** · 08-20-2013, 03:18 PM

ok, to draw a line, and to finalize my investigation. Here's what I 'know':
* my test levels are low, but not under minimum level, and I know how to make them a little bit higher on natural way - so I'm definitely not for TRT
* answer on my question should I take AAS despite my cancer history is probably: NO. But...
* will light or medium AAS cause regress of f....ing cancer? There's no evidence for that till today(except for Deca D. and Winstrol and also anything that raises IGF-1)
* does Test E. also raise IGF-1 as Test-C and Test-P?
* what do you think about my light cycle which is written above, in my first thread?
Thank you all on your time.
Looking forward to read your answers....

**Lunk1** · 08-20-2013, 03:32 PM

Testosterone is believed to increase IGF-1 to a small degree. Not to the extent of GH but still an increase.

As far as you cycling after having testicular cancer...it's not likely anyone is comfortable saying you should or shouldn't but I have never heard of any direct correlation between AAS use and testicular cancer. The choice is ultimately yours.