Keeping Gains

**boostjunkie09** · 08-16-2013, 01:08 PM

I want to here some of your all experiences.

Their are people that say no matter what you do, you cannot keep the gains that you made while on cycle.
Bios3 on youtube says very clearly that no matter how good your pct or nutrition. You will lose all the gains made on cycle after six months or so of being clean.

This is a huge concern of mine. Because me personally, I do not want to continue cycling over the next decade. I was just looking at cycling 3-4 times max to push myself past my genetic limits.

But if I am going to loose my gains. There is no point and I will just get as big as possible naturally. I have good genetics, manage my macros and train like hell. So my question is, "Is it worth my time and energy?" Would appreciate hearing your all opinions.

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 01:12 PM

If your gains developed beyond your natural potential, it is true. You cannot maintain them without protecting them with exogenous agents. If you're still within your natural limits, you need to eat in a heavy caloric surplus to maintain as much as possible.

Make no mistake about it, however, 100% of muscle is gone post body limitations without continuous protection. You can't keep what you're not intended to keep.

**teezer33** · 08-16-2013, 03:06 PM

Jerry Ward mentioned that on one of his videos, quite an interesting guy

**Capebuffalo** · 08-16-2013, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

If your gains developed beyond your natural potential, it is true. You cannot maintain them without protecting them with exogenous agents. If you're still within your natural limits, you need to eat in a heavy caloric surplus to maintain as much as possible.

Make no mistake about it, however, 100% of muscle is gone post body limitations without continuous protection. You can't keep what you're not intended to keep.

Well said and easy to understand. About as clear as it can be.

**calstate23** · 08-16-2013, 03:24 PM

Yes, you can not keep gains...

People should change the phrase from "How to keep gains" to how to PROLONG gains....

You can procrastinate the loss of gains but you will lose ALL GAINS eventually....That's of course if you go off all hormones...

Just look at some of the bodybuilders that go to jail during massive massive stack of hormone use...Look at the retired bodybuilder just 1-2 years after (If they stop hormone use, of course most don't completely stop do to their ego of being huge and respected...And also, so they can keep selling their supplements..Right, no one wants to use the supplements from the small retired bodybuilder)

Yeah, a lot of that is do to not training or dieting...But the main cause to loss of their muscle and size is because the lack of hormone use....

You will never keep gains...Nothing, once ALL hormones out of system

**Fcastle357** · 08-16-2013, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

If your gains developed beyond your natural potential, it is true. You cannot maintain them without protecting them with exogenous agents. If you're still within your natural limits, you need to eat in a heavy caloric surplus to maintain as much as possible.

Make no mistake about it, however, 100% of muscle is gone post body limitations without continuous protection. You can't keep what you're not intended to keep.

I know this is true however it ruined my day and made me take inventory of my current stash.

**calstate23** · 08-16-2013, 03:35 PM

This kind of ties in with why you should not cycle until you're older and your endocrine system is fully developed...

Why risk your health and well being at a young age for a few cycles?

That is why I also stated I only approve of someone 21 years old who already has miraculous body looking to TRULY become a professional...

Because if this is true the 21 year old will not only be using hormones constantly for years and years on end, he will be abusing the hormones on a daily basis...

Which means, you should only do that if you have REAL chance at getting a pro card or higher...

**--->>405<<---** · 08-16-2013, 03:40 PM

out of curiosity what would u think ud have to run to maintain gains for a TRT guy carrying say an extra 20lbs LBM.. ?? where would ur blood levels have to be during cruising times?

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

out of curiosity what would u think ud have to run to maintain gains for a TRT guy carrying say an extra 20lbs LBM.. ?? where would ur blood levels have to be during cruising times?

20 bs is a lot of muscle. Likely no less than 600mg weekly. Which is a common cruising dose for many over their potential. 750+ is not uncommon either.

Folks would be surprised how much a natural body can hold. I'm 225 lbs at 6ft, with 198 lean lbs and I think I still have a ways to go. I'm confident my body can hold onto 205 lbs of lean mass without issue. So for me to carry 225 to 235 lean lbs consistently, I don't think any lower than 600mg would suffice.

**calstate23** · 08-16-2013, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

out of curiosity what would u think ud have to run to maintain gains for a TRT guy carrying say an extra 20lbs LBM.. ?? where would ur blood levels have to be during cruising times?

That's too broad of a question to truly answer with certainty...You would have to have quite some info on a person to divulge an answer...

Blood levels really wouldn't matter as how certain people react to taking hormones...For instance, take 2 people, same height, weight, bf%, same diet, same training, both with no hormone use....

They might have the same blood levels on cycle but one could make EXTENSIVE gains while the other person not as much...

Plus, we have to look at other hormones the person has used...Also, how long have they been using these hormones...

But, without a doubt for that person to keep an extra 20 lbs LBM they will have to be out of the normal range on blood work...

**AsEpSiS** · 08-16-2013, 04:11 PM

Excellent post and excellent comments! It should be a "must read" for anyone looking to use AAS recreationally.

**calstate23** · 08-16-2013, 04:20 PM

Also, TRT patient blasting and cruising would not see that DRAMATIC fall in hormone levels as for instance someone cycling and then going into PCT....

Depending on TRT dose, your serum level would already be high...Then you blast, then you just go to lower dose...In this case this would be an example of PROLONGING the loss of gains...With the TRT dose in system it will take MUCH longer for this person to see a dramatic weight loss then the average joe who does cycle and PCT....

Running GH through the drop down to normal TRT dose will help DRAMATICALLY in keeping the gains...Perfect for ones not wanting to run heavy cycles constantly throughout the year....You can stop the high dose TRT add the pharm gh 5 iu + a day and those gains will stick TREMENDOUSLY longer....

**Hazard** · 08-16-2013, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

20 bs is a lot of muscle. Likely no less than 600mg weekly. Which is a common cruising dose for many over their potential. 750+ is not uncommon either.

Folks would be surprised how much a natural body can hold. I'm 225 lbs at 6ft, with 198 lean lbs and I think I still have a ways to go. I'm confident my body can hold onto 205 lbs of lean mass without issue. So for me to carry 225 to 235 lean lbs consistently, I don't think any lower than 600mg would suffice.

I do..... I'm 6'1 - got to 200 naturally. Been up to 255 at 12%.....

I've just come off a 1 year lay off. No gym, no hormones. I held on to quite a bit. By all means..... I don't look 255 at 12% lmao but I still looked fairly big. Here's a pic of me about 8-9 months without lifting or hormones.....

I'm bigger than this now..... Sitting on 253 at the moment after being back for about a month. I'm now doing cardio out the ass to lean out.

Sry to get off topic...... In short..... I think 300mgs/wk maybe 400 with a good diet and steady training can maintain a decent amount.

**Hazard** · 08-16-2013, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

If your gains developed beyond your natural potential, it is true. You cannot maintain them without protecting them with exogenous agents. If you're still within your natural limits, you need to eat in a heavy caloric surplus to maintain as much as possible.

Make no mistake about it, however, 100% of muscle is gone post body limitations without continuous protection. You can't keep what you're not intended to keep.

^^^^ this..... Spot on

**calstate23** · 08-16-2013, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

I do..... I'm 6'1 - got to 200 naturally. Been up to 255 at 12%.....

I've just come off a 1 year lay off. No gym, no hormones. I held on to quite a bit. By all means..... I don't look 255 at 12% lmao but I still looked fairly big. Here's a pic of me about 8-9 months without lifting or hormones.....

I'm bigger than this now..... Sitting on 253 at the moment after being back for about a month. I'm now doing cardio out the ass to lean out.

Sry to get off topic...... In short..... I think 300mgs/wk maybe 400 with a good diet and steady training can maintain a decent amount.

Hmm hmm...Smells fishy...Just messin....Lookin good

Well, let's say "Hypothetically" I weighed 220 lbs 6% bf...Stopped all hormones and was 219 at 13% bf....Hypothetically, I still would have lost right around 15-20 lbs of lean muscle even though I am still the same weight...

**boostjunkie09** · 08-16-2013, 04:43 PM

Very interesting. I believe I will stay natural. At least for a few more years.

I am currently 6' 1/2"
190lbs
8-10%bf
Training for 3-4yrs
I still have a lot of growth yet before I reach my limit. Probably will see 205-210Lbm natural, wanted to reach 225 : ) We will see what happens. Thanks for the info!!!

**Hazard** · 08-16-2013, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by calstate23

Hmm hmm...Smells fishy...Just messin....Lookin good

Well, let's say "Hypothetically" I weighed 220 lbs 6% bf...Stopped all hormones and was 219 at 13% bf....Hypothetically, I still would have lost right around 15-20 lbs of lean muscle even though I am still the same weight...

Right.....

I try to keep around 10-12% all the time.

You can't maintain 6% year round...... It's not healthy. It'd also be damned hard..... Even with hormones..... To maintain that for any extended period.

**BluPhin** · 08-16-2013, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

20 bs is a lot of muscle. Likely no less than 600mg weekly. Which is a common cruising dose for many over their potential. 750+ is not uncommon either.

Folks would be surprised how much a natural body can hold. I'm 225 lbs at 6ft, with 198 lean lbs and I think I still have a ways to go. I'm confident my body can hold onto 205 lbs of lean mass without issue. So for me to carry 225 to 235 lean lbs consistently, I don't think any lower than 600mg would suffice.

If 600mg/wk is cruise, what would a blast look like?

**MajorPectorial** · 08-16-2013, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

Right.....

I try to keep around 10-12% all the time.

You can't maintain 6% year round...... It's not healthy. It'd also be damned hard..... Even with hormones..... To maintain that for any extended period.

Yeh 10-12 as not planning on competing would be great for me I reckon. I blast n cruise myself n as use my own test e 250 as a base I cruise at 500mgwk I.plan to keep future cruises at 2 wks. Blasts into 1-16 test e+tren a. So far just broke through 17stone 7 although around 19%bf this IS lowering and weight increasing.
Lovin it. ;-) but for those even considering blasting n cruising this is not something to do on a whim. Think long n hard. Cuz its a life thing. U don't do this for years n hit pct as it mist likely wouldn't work. If ur ON trt then... ur basically already doin it.

**Brazensol** · 08-16-2013, 06:12 PM

So to summarize - you keep what you kill... Wait, that's from a movie!

You can use aas to get up to and, of course, well beyond your genetic potential but you will go back to your genetic potential when off the aas. Thereafter, hard work and proper diet will keep us at the peak of our genetic potential? Makes sense.

How many people truly reach their natural potential prior to using aas? Since we really have know way of probably knowing when we've reached our natural abilities (seems we can always find ways to eke out more improvements, albeit perhaps very small ones) at what point would it be prudent to start aas? Can this even be answered with any accuracy?

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 06:19 PM

Yes. Just like renting a car. Once you stop paying, you have to give it back.

Rarely do people reach potential prior to steroid use . When you are doing everything right and not gaining muscle, then you've probably reached or super close to your potential. Of course, you and I, braz, know what doing everything right means. Unfortunately, the majority will discount diet and training and assume they're not gaining because they lack steroids .

Over time, you learn how your body responds. But this takes time and dedication. To the point that you can even control your symmetry to a degree. An experienced dieter/trainer will know when he or she is maxed out.

**MajorPectorial** · 08-16-2013, 06:58 PM

I think like aust to get right to ur natty Max. Prolly never truly happens but maybe a few. The way I see it is I'm in for the long haul. Once I've hooked up ever section of body I'll trim up. Tone down. Eat loads still tho n train like o do now n experiment how low a dose I can get by without losing.

**--->>405<<---** · 08-16-2013, 07:11 PM

dang man 400+ per week just doesnt sound healthy for maintaining..

what i think i am understanding though is since we usually will not reach our genetic limit naturally then i could possibly benefit from running a cycle or 3 because the cycle would enable me to reach the genetic limit (and beyond) i probably wouldnt have reached otherwise and my body should be able to maintain it (up to my genetic limit which will be more LBM than i currently have now) even though i am no longer cycling..?? (i hope u understand the question!)

**Emerald** · 08-16-2013, 08:07 PM

Live in the moment. Enjoy the ride. We ain't getting out alive anyway. I'm loving it all right now. Tons of attention, a physique I'm proud of and a renewed love of sex. Maybe I'll never go off, just cycle until I'm 80

**tdoe11** · 08-16-2013, 09:26 PM

I know many people that have been off aas for years. There not super ripped and vascular but they are definitely bigger than when they started.

A friend I work out with is in his 50s. He's an x mr California. He is super huge still. He has only done one test cycle in the last couple years. He trains like a maniac and eats probably a little too much.

I know another fella, he has put on a bit of "bad" weight, but it still very muscular. He hasn't cycled in years. So to say all will be totally lost isn't necessarily true.

IMO if you did one gnarly cycle and blew up, then quit all be lost. BUT if you cycle on and off for years, and keep that muscle in your body for years you will retain some of it. Not all and maybe not even half but definitely something. Over time training and diet are going to determine everything.

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by tdoe11

I know many people that have been off aas for years. There not super ripped and vascular but they are definitely bigger than when they started.

A friend I work out with is in his 50s. He's an x mr California. He is super huge still. He has only done one test cycle in the last couple years. He trains like a maniac and eats probably a little too much.

I know another fella, he has put on a bit of "bad" weight, but it still very muscular. He hasn't cycled in years. So to say all will be totally lost isn't necessarily true.

IMO if you did one gnarly cycle and blew up, then quit all be lost. BUT if you cycle on and off for years, and keep that muscle in your body for years you will retain some of it. Not all and maybe not even half but definitely something. Over time training and diet are going to determine everything.

It's scientifically impossible. You really don't know what these guys are doing. Just because they say they don't use, does not mean so. Next... You have no idea what their limits are, non at all. So you can't make an assessment.

No one is defying science. Those who are larger in overall size used HGH for extended periods, which affects bone structure.

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

dang man 400+ per week just doesnt sound healthy for maintaining..

what i think i am understanding though is since we usually will not reach our genetic limit naturally then i could possibly benefit from running a cycle or 3 because the cycle would enable me to reach the genetic limit (and beyond) i probably wouldnt have reached otherwise and my body should be able to maintain it (up to my genetic limit which will be more LBM than i currently have now) even though i am no longer cycling..?? (i hope u understand the question!)

Makes sense.

**tdoe11** · 08-16-2013, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

It's scientifically impossible. You really don't know what these guys are doing. Just because they say they don't use, does not mean so. Next... You have no idea what their limits are, non at all. So you can't make an assessment.

No one is defying science. Those who are larger in overall size used HGH for extended periods, which affects bone structure.

Well My friend chris for example. It might sound crazy to some, but about 8 years ago he made a pact with God to not take any aas again. I know for a fact he doesn't and hasn't in years. His reasoning for starting was he was small and skinny. He isn't by any means a huge buff guy now, but he is at least 30 or so pounds more than he was before aas. He ran cycles for quite a few years prior to his pact. He does still work out to. He definitely lost a large amount of mass when he came off for good but he did not go 100% back to where he started. Do you really think if someone put on some size (not past genetic limit) and cycled off correctly. Made a fast recovery and continued to train hard they would lose every ounce gained?

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 11:16 PM

Look at scooby from youtube. for his age, he's a pretty big guy, with a bigger chest than most folks who cycle.

I do believe that you will lose all gains post limitations. It's how the human body works. Same with horses when they stop injecting them with Equipoise , they go back to original endurance. We can't physically hold onto what our bodies cannot maintain naturally. It's just not possible. Muscle is a completely different beast than anything else. This is the sole purpose of steroid use . Heck, we can't even use T3 without some sort of protection.

Your body is incredibly smart and so complex that most folks couldn't even begin to understand. But like anything else, when something is "out of order", it's almost always temporary. Certainly always in the case of muscle tissue. When your body is done fighting an infection, white blood cells go back to normal. When your body has too much T3 floating around, TSH slows down to stabilize. When your temperature goes up, your sympathetic nervous system triggers sweat glands to bring temperature back in order.

So you see, your body is constantly going back to normal. Every second and every minute of the day it is fighting to stabilize and keep you alive. The human body was never designed to carry so much muscle mass that has to be fed in order to be maintained. You'll never naturally produce enough testosterone and everything else your body needs to maintain such tremendous growth. If you attempt to eat 20,000 calories you'll end up with far more issues than maintaining muscle. It's literally, physically impossible. It's not a random statement, it's how we, as humans are designed to function with the existing circulatory and hormone secreting systems that we possess. We are not supermen. Just men.

AD · 08-16-2013, 11:19 PM

If someone is clearly within genetic limits, with proper training and diet, and not suffering from low T, keeping gains should be possible.

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by AD

If someone is clearly within genetic limits, with proper training and diet, and not suffering from low T, keeping gains should be possible.

Of course. True. possible and not very difficult actually.

**tdoe11** · 08-16-2013, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

Look at scooby from youtube. for his age, he's a pretty big guy, with a bigger chest than most folks who cycle.

I do believe that you will lose all gains post limitations. It's how the human body works. Same with horses when they stop injecting them with Equipoise , they go back to original endurance. We can't physically hold onto what our bodies cannot maintain naturally. It's just not possible. Muscle is a completely different beast than anything else. This is the sole purpose of steroid use . Heck, we can't even use T3 without some sort of protection.

Your body is incredibly smart and so complex that most folks couldn't even begin to understand. But like anything else, when something is "out of order", it's almost always temporary. Certainly always in the case of muscle tissue. When your body is done fighting an infection, white blood cells go back to normal. When your body has too much T3 floating around, TSH slows down to stabilize. When your temperature goes up, your sympathetic nervous system triggers sweat glands to bring temperature back in order.

So you see, your body is constantly going back to normal. Every second and every minute of the day it is fighting to stabilize and keep you alive. The human body was never designed to carry so much muscle mass that has to be fed in order to be maintained. You'll never naturally produce enough testosterone and everything else your body needs to maintain such tremendous growth. If you attempt to eat 20,000 calories you'll end up with far more issues than maintaining muscle. It's literally, physically impossible. It's not a random statement, it's how we, as humans are designed to function with the existing circulatory and hormone secreting systems that we possess. We are not supermen. Just men.

Definitely agreed. And very well put. I guess the reality of both situations I am talking about used aas to get to their natural potential. I totally agree anything super human or past genetic limit will disappear. Some people do have some pretty impressive genetic limits though. Unfortunately I might not be one of those lucky fellas

. I will definitely enjoy responsibly cycling for some years and keeping some gains though.

**calstate23** · 08-16-2013, 11:25 PM

Scooby is NOT natural one bit and I would put my life on it...With him you have test and gh...Not saying his physique is awesome but that is what tricks people...He just holds A LOT of water, plus he's an old man...You can't be his age and look like he does....

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 11:25 PM

^ Yes, those guys with incredible genetics suck. Let's beat them up after school. You and me. I'll knock out 2 at a time

**austinite** · 08-16-2013, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by calstate23

Scooby is NOT natural one bit and I would put my life on it...With him you have test and gh...Not saying his physique is awesome but that is what tricks people...He just holds A LOT of water, plus he's an old man...You can't be his age and look like he does....

No one said that scooby is natural. The point was that you cannot point at someone and make statements unless you live with them and eat with them and shit with them 24/7.

**calstate23** · 08-16-2013, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by tdoe11

Well My friend chris for example. It might sound crazy to some, but about 8 years ago he made a pact with God to not take any aas again. I know for a fact he doesn't and hasn't in years. His reasoning for starting was he was small and skinny. He isn't by any means a huge buff guy now, but he is at least 30 or so pounds more than he was before aas. He ran cycles for quite a few years prior to his pact. He does still work out to. He definitely lost a large amount of mass when he came off for good but he did not go 100% back to where he started. Do you really think if someone put on some size (not past genetic limit) and cycled off correctly. Made a fast recovery and continued to train hard they would lose every ounce gained?

I also met a girl that became a "reborn again christian"....Apparently, that makes you a virgin again..Well, that only lasted 2 weeks....

Size means nothing, it's bf% that makes ALL the difference...Perhaps, if he did stop steroids you might interpret being big as in shape....

**tdoe11** · 08-16-2013, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

^ Yes, those guys with incredible genetics suck. Let's beat them up after school. You and me. I'll knock out 2 at a time

Yes sir. Hehe. Those young bastards with huge traps. I can KILL my traps on cycle and they grow so slow.

**calstate23** · 08-16-2013, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by austinite

No one said that scooby is natural. The point was that you cannot point at someone and make statements unless you live with them and eat with them and shit with them 24/7.

Yes, I agree

**tdoe11** · 08-16-2013, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by calstate23

I also met a girl that became a "reborn again christian"....Apparently, that makes you a virgin again..Well, that only lasted 2 weeks....

Size means nothing, it's bf% that makes ALL the difference...Perhaps, if he did stop steroids you might interpret being big as in shape....

I wouldn't say he is "in shape". He is definitely not lean. He does still have some pretty wide shoulders and a decent sized chest though.

**Brazensol** · 08-16-2013, 11:32 PM

I've been thinking about this topic for awhile tonight (and wondering for quite some time how I would express my concerns but this seems a good place for it). Good topic by the way!

Like so many people who lift I neglected my legs. I know I am not the only one because I see it every time I go to the gym. My upper body is doing ok but it still has room to grow to be sure. Add to that I'm over 50 and it's easy to see time is NOT on my side any more. Cycling for me will be somewhat of a shortcut (by that I mean I doubt I will be as close to my genetic potential as I probably should be) to try and get as close to my genetic potential as reasonablyquick as possible. BUT! My legs are lagging for sure and will be for quite some time to come so... when I run my first cycle do my legs get to "come along for the ride" or will I cause an even greater disparity between them and my upper body?

I've have reached the critical sub 15% bf goal (and then some) for cycling (which I knew was a must) but I must admit I doubt I am near my natural limit. I'd guess somewhere around 75-80% at best. Would I be doing myself a diservice by cycling very late this year or early next year given my current condition? I must admit to being somewhat impatient but again, time is no longer an ally for me (not that I am ready for the old folks home just yet, lol). I don't currently have any desire to go beyond my potential but would not mind getting there quicker. Here is where I envision myself being completely satisfied with my body; 190-200 pounds at 10% bf. I am currently sitting at 177 pounds and 13.5% bf so this would require me adding ~22 pounds of lbm. Bottom line - am I ready to cycle?