When is it time to juice?

[calstate23]

My theory on when it is time to juice...

I believe most people tend to overestimate where they should be as a natty...Most think if they're not hitting close to 200 lbs they haven't reached genetic potential which is not true...

The fact is, depending on your height, your body AS A NATURAL will only allow you to hold so much muscle..And like I've said before unless your pushing 6ft you will not reach 200 lbs with low digit body fat%....

Example, let's say you're 5'10" and you are 180 lbs at 9% as a natty...That's great, what's the reason to say you need to get bigger?

Because at that height you've come close to how much muscle your body can hold AS A NATTY....Any extra weight you put on will be fat....

So what's the point of the 5'10" 180 lbs 9% guy to get to 200 lbs? All this person would be doing mostly is gaining bodyfat...Great, so you hit 200 lbs..But all you did was raise your bf% close to 20% but didn't hardly gain anymore muscle....

For every 1" on a person you can give or take between 5-10 lbs of weight as a natty in low bf%...So start with a range here 5'10" in low digit body fat% (10% and below) will roughly be in the range 175-180 lbs...So how ever tall you are, you can figure out where you should MOST LIKELY be when you are in low bf%...

Now I'm I saying this is set in stone? No, but MAJORITY of people are going to and should fall within this category...

So personally, for me, I'd rather see 5'10 175-180 lbs below 10% use steroids then someone who is 5'10 200 lbs at 16% bf...Because again, as a natty you can only hold so much muscle before it starts to spill over as fat...

This is where hormones come in...No point in gaining bf% because you think you need to get bigger...Increase food on hormones when you are low bf% and instead of gaining fat you will gain MOSTLY muscle....

So in the end, take 5'10 180 lbs at 9% who use hormones...He can EASILY get to 200 lbs on hormones while still staying lean and in shape...Then build from there...

[probuild42]

Interesting post!!

So using example of 5'10" man who 180lbs 10% bf. Does one cycle resulting in gains of 10lbs lbm staying at 10% bf mean that you have now surpassed your natural potential? Do you think he will keep the gains with diet and training in check or will he eventually loose the gains?

My understanding is gains made will be lost over time beyond your natural limit.

[SEOINAGE]

I think I understand what you are saying. But someone that is 180 lbs 9% body fat, who has been training for several years, decides to dedicate some time to a clean bulk, say they were shooting for .5 lbs a month gain, if diet and training is in check they can put on more muscle it is just going to take a really long time. A seasoned trainee can add a couple lbs of lean body mass in a year, nothing like starting out when they put on 15-20 or more in a short time. Even if they were to do a faster bulk say .5 lbs a week and bulk for a year roughly up to 200 lbs, it isn't going to all be fat, they will likely increase their LBM. There's a reason someone's natural potential for lbm at 9% 15% and 20% is going to be different, but I think you understand that in your statement of 200 lbs 16% bf which is 168 lbs lean. and 190 and 9% is 164 lean, but you weren't really stating that.

Everyone mentions staying under 15 % bodyfat to cycle. But I find a lot of good resources from other boards etc and other transformation experts that advocate getting much much lower before starting a cycle and having it be a part of your priming for the cycle.

So your point of not getting fat just to force weight gain is probably a good thing. Although I still think persons should really push the limit naturally, so they can really learn and understand their bodies. Way more often than not people start on the juice before they build a foundation. 180 lbs and 9% is usually a pretty solid foundation. But for say I took 20 lbs off because I am 5'8" and that would put me ready to cycle around 155-160 lbs if I was 10% and under. When i started getting more serious about diet and training I only weighed 145 lbs, I was tiny, it took me a year to get to 155, then I discovered creatine and ballooned up to 185 lbs, not 10% lean, but it happened fast. Much leaner than I am now, but my point is I would have been ready for steroids at 20 years old with just 160-165 lbs of me. I put on a ton of muscle when I went up to 185 lbs, would have done about the same with steroids, with maybe a little less bf gain, but I look back on pictures and I was still fairly lean, enough to be way above your requirements as far as lbm goes, I even dieted down to 175 one time, and later down to 155, maybe that is when I should have started, but back then I was still naive about what was possible. I am glad I didn't do any of it back then. I wasn't mentally or emotionally ready for something like that, and I needed my experiences that made me who I am.

Anyways, leaner is better, but I still think you would be missing out on some solid potential starting too soon. Not to mention steroids aren't that worth doing unless you keep doing them. Or are using them for a profession or sport. That's just my opinion though.

[calstate23]

So basically put...My opinion of reaching your natural potential is hitting or getting close to the amount of muscle your body will let you hold as a natty while ALSO keeping bodyfat% low...

So example, again take someone who is 5'10" 180 lbs at 8% bf...They've basically come close to hitting their genetic potential for how much muscle they can hold and they did it while keeping low bf%...

Where as, 5'10" 200 lbs 16% will also be holding about as much muscle as he genetically can carry at his height but he is too fat...When this person cuts they will also lose muscle trying to get to 8%...

So basically the ones who get within their LBM weight range while keeping bf% low as a natural are hitting their genetic potential...

[calstate23]

See this is where weight and bf% really gets twisted around...

People AUTOMATICALLY say 180 is too light for 5'10"....But NOT AT ALL if they are 7% bf...Because again, they have basically hit their plateau as far as how much muscle they can naturally hold at that height..

This is VERY VERY difficult to do as a natty but most people just read it and don't believe it...The fact is you will rarely even see this in your gym...

It's much more difficult to do then what it sounds...

I still advocate waiting until your older AKA 25ish before hormone use...

I know people will get this twisted and say I'm 5'10 at 180 okay I can juice now....BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID...

What I am saying is in LOW bf% NOT 180 at 15%...Plus be of PROPER age...

[probuild42]

^^Agree^^ It's much more difficult to do then what it sounds... It takes a lot of time and dedication!!!

The results will pay off!!

[sawyer86]

Why do all of your threads have to be like this?

[calstate23]

Why do all of your threads have to be like this?

Lol...Just trying to help folk out

And I will admit that a lot of my treads are RETARDED but I'm being serious about this one...

[sawyer86]

I know what your saying but your threads always get so argumentative.

Some of what your saying makes sense but surely everyones natural limit is totally diffrent. One persons frame will hold a totally diffrent amount of lbm to another person depending on body type and genes.

[calstate23]

I know what your saying but your threads always get so argumentative.

Some of what your saying makes sense but surely everyones natural limit is totally diffrent. One persons frame will hold a totally diffrent amount of lbm to another person depending on body type and genes.

Yes, I do agree with that...

But it's not going to be night and day...For instance, no one (Or at least anyone that I have ever seen in my life) has been 5'9" 200 lbs at 5% as a natural...In fact, I don't even think I've seen 5'9" at 6% 190 as a natural...

[sawyer86]

Why do you start threads that you think are reterded?

I think most people dont try hard enough to reach their natural limit. The dont eat enough they dont train hard enough and the start steriods to early. Because of this i think its hard to judge a topoc like this.

[SEOINAGE]

See this is where weight and bf% really gets twisted around...

People AUTOMATICALLY say 180 is too light for 5'10"....But NOT AT ALL if they are 7% bf...Because again, they have basically hit their plateau as far as how much muscle they can naturally hold at that height..

This is VERY VERY difficult to do as a natty but most people just read it and don't believe it...The fact is you will rarely even see this in your gym...

It's much more difficult to do then what it sounds...

I still advocate waiting until your older AKA 25ish before hormone use...

I know people will get this twisted and say I'm 5'10 at 180 okay I can juice now....BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID...

What I am saying is in LOW bf% NOT 180 at 15%...Plus be of PROPER age...

I understand what you said. But also think how many people guess their bodyfat way way lower than it really is. Obviously reaching the same lbm at a lower body weight is harder to do. I jsut don't think there can be this be all end all set of factors to determine someone is ready.

[calstate23]

Why do you start threads that you think are reterded?

I think most people dont try hard enough to reach their natural limit. The dont eat enough they dont train hard enough and the start steriods to early. Because of this i think its hard to judge a topoc like this.

I don't know, why does the sun rise in the East...

I didn't say this one was a retarded...

[cj111]

I was going to say every morning, I start with a tomato a carrot and some fruit. Maybe other things depending whats in the fridge.

[sawyer86]

No but you did admit a lot of your threads are reterded.

[calstate23]

I was going to say every morning, I start with a tomato a carrot and some fruit. Maybe other things depending whats in the fridge.

Lol...Let me guess and then you put it into the NutriBullet and PULVERIZED the nutrients..

[calstate23]

Anyways, I'll put some math into it here...

And where did I come up with these numbers? Because out of all my years on the planet I have never seen 5'9" 190 lbs at 6% natural...So if there is someone out there with these stats as a natural they will most likely end up competing at a very high level...

So let's start with something that I have seen and not very often as a natural which is 5'9" 180 lbs at 6% as a natural...

LBM is roughly 170 lbs...So since I have RARELY RARELY ever seen this then we can assume someone who can even do this has MUCH better genetics then MAJORITY of other people...

Therefore, 170 lbs of LBM at 5'9" should be a GOOD MEASURE (Or gold standard) of how much muscle a person can hold as a natural at that height...And that's with ABOVE AVERAGE genetics...

[cj111]

So PULVERIZED!!! I could actually see the nutrients swirling in my cup right before I drank it.. oh man.. awesome I tells ya!

[johnnymctrance]

I agree with this

[tgunn]

My head is spinning! !!?????

[kelkel]

Shiat, I need a calculator.

[D2'd]

Agree 100% with what the OP is saying here. 99% of dudes would have an extremely hard time getting to 180 lbs and under 10% BF at under 6' tall without drugs.

[MajorPectorial]

Yeh trye

[Deutsche]

I think people underestimate how far they can go without juicing I'm 6'1 220 natural and I still have a lot of room to grow. I don't understand all of the 160 pounders writing about how thier about to hop on. They clearly can grow without that stuff if they just learn how to train and eat.

Here is my take..
Step 1. Build the foundation. I use strength as a good measuring stick. How strong do you want to be? I think a good goal is a 500 deadlift and 405 squat.
Step 2. Cut down to desired bodyfat%.
Step 3 Might be a good time to cycle

Simple enough, but this is a multiyear process.

[Fcastle357]

Agree 100% with what the OP is saying here. 99% of dudes would have an extremely hard time getting to 180 lbs and under 10% BF at under 6' tall without drugs.

I second that. I tried and tried at 5 foot 10 to get to 190 and 15% body fat. Could not do it. If I drop to 15% I weigh about 175 with much less muscle. If I get up to 190-200 I'm at about 25-30 % body fat. Just the way my body is.

[calstate23]

So PULVERIZED!!! I could actually see the nutrients swirling in my cup right before I drank it.. oh man.. awesome I tells ya!

Lol...That guy LOVES to use the word PULVERIZED! He no joke slips it in like every 30 seconds...

[calstate23]

I think people underestimate how far they can go without juicing I'm 6'1 220 natural and I still have a lot of room to grow. I don't understand all of the 160 pounders writing about how thier about to hop on. They clearly can grow without that stuff if they just learn how to train and eat.

Here is my take..
Step 1. Build the foundation. I use strength as a good measuring stick. How strong do you want to be? I think a good goal is a 500 deadlift and 405 squat.
Step 2. Cut down to desired bodyfat%.
Step 3 Might be a good time to cycle

Simple enough, but this is a multiyear process.

Weight is meaningless...It's about height, weight and bf%....For instance, if someone was 5'5 at 160 lbs at 6% bf that is huge for their height...

6'1 220...but what's your bf%?

[calstate23]

Further example of why it doesn't matter to gain more weight if you are 5'9" 180 at 6% Natty...

So again, that is roughly 170 (169.2) lbs of LBM....You're just going to put on more fat, not muscle...

Let's say this same person puts on 20 lbs...5'9" 200 lbs but NOW at 14%...Great, now this person has 172 lbs of LBM (2 more pounds of muscle)...But guess what? Now they have to cut to look shredded Or before they can get the max benefits from hormones...

So now there will be muscle loss along with fat when they cut...By the time this person gets to 6% he'll have LESS muscle tissue then 180 at 6%...

[sagittarius]

I second that. I tried and tried at 5 foot 10 to get to 190 and 15% body fat. Could not do it. If I drop to 15% I weigh about 175 with much less muscle. If I get up to 190-200 I'm at about 25-30 % body fat. Just the way my body is.

I think I'm like you. I'm 5 foot 10 and now I'm around 173-174 lbs at 11-12% body fat. It is very hard to go over 175 lbs. A few months ago I reached 180 lbs but I had to eat a lot and probably most of the gains were fat.

I tried everything but nothing works. It is very frustrating. I think just like in other disciplines the talent (the genetic limit, other factors) is very important (more important than people think).

[< <Samson> >]

To each is own

Whatever floats your boat

I don't really give a rats ass if I am under 10% Bf or 250 pounds. It's about what I want to look like and what I want to be able to lift.

Power lifters suck down more sauce than a pro bodybuilder, yet they hold well over 20% Bf in most cases. Why? Because that is what they want.

It makes no difference on what you use juice for. It's your body


Is there a best time for it? I guess. . . . When you feel like you have reached some sort of a natural limit. Even then it makes no damn difference. You can juice when you look like a complete pile of crap, but it may not give you the best possible results as soon you want, or you can require yourself from lack of knowledge.

People ask me dumb shit all day long now. . . Am I ready to juice? Well fvck, if that's what you want be my guest. I tell everyone the same shit: It's not magic by any means, it's just an additional kick to get you there. How big of a kick? Well, it depends on how much and what kind of sauce you are willing to put down.

But, no matter what juice will not make you on its own. It's just a tool, yet people want it to be so much more. As did I when I started. . . . . It's all about what you want.

It's all bad for our body, it's all unnecessary(except for TRT or other severe medical cases) and just the crap us self indulgent wieners do.

It makes no damn difference if you can bench 225 or 450 < Unless you compete or a pro bodybuilder of some form. Just like it makes no damn difference if your Bf% is 9% or 15%. . . . Who gives a shit? = It's only you that does(meaning us) - It's all in the eye of the beholder.

[Fcastle357]

To each is own

Whatever floats your boat

I don't really give a rats ass if I am under 10% Bf or 250 pounds. It's about what I want to look like and what I want to be able to lift.

Power lifters suck down more sauce than a pro bodybuilder, yet they hold well over 20% Bf in most cases. Why? Because that is what they want.

It makes no difference on what you use juice for. It's your body

Is there a best time for it? I guess. . . . When you feel like you have reached some sort of a natural limit. Even then it makes no damn difference. You can juice when you look like a complete pile of crap, but it may not give you the best possible results as soon you want, or you can require yourself from lack of knowledge.

People ask me dumb shit all day long now. . . Am I ready to juice? Well fvck, if that's what you want be my guest. I tell everyone the same shit: It's not magic by any means, it's just an additional kick to get you there. How big of a kick? Well, it depends on how much and what kind of sauce you are willing to put down.

But, no matter what juice will not make you on its own. It's just a tool, yet people want it to be so much more. As did I when I started. . . . . It's all about what you want.

It's all bad for our body, it's all unnecessary(except for TRT or other severe medical cases) and just the crap us self indulgent wieners do.

It makes no damn difference if you can bench 225 or 450 < Unless you compete or a pro bodybuilder of some form. Just like it makes no damn difference if your Bf% is 9% or 15%. . . . Who gives a shit? = It's only you that does(meaning us) - It's all in the eye of the beholder.

I agree but wonder what some others think about bf%. I hear a lot "don't bother with a cycle if your 18% or higher. I also hear "wow look at the difference that person made" even if they are way above 18% would these people that preach body fat% have the balls to tell a pro ball player hey bud a little to high body fat to cycle?

[Term]

To each is own

Whatever floats your boat

I don't really give a rats ass if I am under 10% Bf or 250 pounds. It's about what I want to look like and what I want to be able to lift.

Power lifters suck down more sauce than a pro bodybuilder, yet they hold well over 20% Bf in most cases. Why? Because that is what they want.

It makes no difference on what you use juice for. It's your body


Is there a best time for it? I guess. . . . When you feel like you have reached some sort of a natural limit. Even then it makes no damn difference. You can juice when you look like a complete pile of crap, but it may not give you the best possible results as soon you want, or you can require yourself from lack of knowledge.

People ask me dumb shit all day long now. . . Am I ready to juice? Well fvck, if that's what you want be my guest. I tell everyone the same shit: It's not magic by any means, it's just an additional kick to get you there. How big of a kick? Well, it depends on how much and what kind of sauce you are willing to put down.

But, no matter what juice will not make you on its own. It's just a tool, yet people want it to be so much more. As did I when I started. . . . . It's all about what you want.

It's all bad for our body, it's all unnecessary(except for TRT or other severe medical cases) and just the crap us self indulgent wieners do.

It makes no damn difference if you can bench 225 or 450 < Unless you compete or a pro bodybuilder of some form. Just like it makes no damn difference if your Bf% is 9% or 15%. . . . Who gives a shit? = It's only you that does(meaning us) - It's all in the eye of the beholder.

^^This...At the end of the day, I can get up to 165 Natty, but I look like a pot belly pig. Fk that! My body is just not able to keep a bf% of less than 18% at that weight. At 5'5 and an ectomorph, just eating enough to sustain gainz and trim fat is almost a full time job!
AAS is a means to an end at this point. Your ready to juice when you know wtf your putting in your body and how to do it as safely as possible, have a dialed in diet, and are ready to put in some work pushing weight...and your ready to break through whatever genetic wall is staying in the way of your own self image or goals. For me, I want to be the biggest little guy in the gym...and my damn genetics are in the way=ready to juice!

[< <Samson> >]

I agree but wonder what some others think about bf%. I hear a lot "don't bother with a cycle if your 18% or higher. I also hear "wow look at the difference that person made" even if they are way above 18% would these people that preach body fat% have the balls to tell a pro ball player hey bud a little to high body fat to cycle?

Exactly

Please tell Scot Mendelson that he's a fat fvck and has no business juicing Mr. 180 pound 5% Bf Guy. . . - - - As he throws you into a trash can.

[tgunn]

To each is own

Whatever floats your boat

I don't really give a rats ass if I am under 10% Bf or 250 pounds. It's about what I want to look like and what I want to be able to lift.

Power lifters suck down more sauce than a pro bodybuilder, yet they hold well over 20% Bf in most cases. Why? Because that is what they want.

It makes no difference on what you use juice for. It's your body


Is there a best time for it? I guess. . . . When you feel like you have reached some sort of a natural limit. Even then it makes no damn difference. You can juice when you look like a complete pile of crap, but it may not give you the best possible results as soon you want, or you can require yourself from lack of knowledge.

People ask me dumb shit all day long now. . . Am I ready to juice? Well fvck, if that's what you want be my guest. I tell everyone the same shit: It's not magic by any means, it's just an additional kick to get you there. How big of a kick? Well, it depends on how much and what kind of sauce you are willing to put down.

But, no matter what juice will not make you on its own. It's just a tool, yet people want it to be so much more. As did I when I started. . . . . It's all about what you want.

It's all bad for our body, it's all unnecessary(except for TRT or other severe medical cases) and just the crap us self indulgent wieners do.

It makes no damn difference if you can bench 225 or 450 < Unless you compete or a pro bodybuilder of some form. Just like it makes no damn difference if your Bf% is 9% or 15%. . . . Who gives a shit? = It's only you that does(meaning us) - It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Great response! I have the same outlook..

My head is still spinning tho!!!!!!?/?/ lol!

[calstate23]

Exactly

Please tell Scot Mendelson that he's a fat fvck and has no business juicing Mr. 180 pound 5% Bf Guy. . . - - - As he throws you into a trash can.

It's not hard to look like that...ONE BIT...Throw down some cheese burgers, cram food down your throat all day long and take massive amount of hormones...And you look like that...

I'd be much more worried about a fly weight who has been boxing since a young age...140 lbs will knock Mendelson's eye right out of his socket...

Anyways, the point being, MAJORITY of people on here are not looking to be power lifters (Nor do I think they're looking for high blood pressure, cholesterol, verge of or have diabetes, or looking to be a walking heart attack victim)...They're looking for a better physique..

[OnTheSauce]

Hey now some of us are still lean.... Meanies

[Fcastle357]

It's not hard to look like that...ONE BIT...Throw down some cheese burgers, cram food down your throat all day long and take massive amount of hormones...And you look like that...

I'd be much more worried about a fly weight who has been boxing since a young age...140 lbs will knock Mendelson's eye right out of his socket...

Anyways, the point being, MAJORITY of people on here are not looking to be power lifters (Nor do I think they're looking for high blood pressure, cholesterol, verge of or have diabetes, or looking to be a walking heart attack victim)...They're looking for a better physique..

B.S. I guess people that are big do no work in the gym. They get that strong just by the pure magic of food and roids. Show me a cheeseburger that adds 100 pounds to my bench and than gives me dedication to go to the gym and knock it out. Those big guys work just as hard as your 140 pound boxer but I think you know that.

[SEOINAGE]

It's not hard to look like that...ONE BIT...Throw down some cheese burgers, cram food down your throat all day long and take massive amount of hormones...And you look like that...

I'd be much more worried about a fly weight who has been boxing since a young age...140 lbs will knock Mendelson's eye right out of his socket...

Anyways, the point being, MAJORITY of people on here are not looking to be power lifters (Nor do I think they're looking for high blood pressure, cholesterol, verge of or have diabetes, or looking to be a walking heart attack victim)...They're looking for a better physique..

Statements like this really show you don't know what you are talking about. It's a good thing you didn't add being able to move the weight they move too.

I always wanted a 3x body weight dl and squat and 2x bench before I juiced. I got 1.5 bench and 2x s/dl plus more before I realized I needed trt. And still haven't hit my natural goals I set yet. I really think even a basic level of strength should be acquired before juicing, why jump on harsh compounds when you can build a solid base first.

[calstate23]

I was talking about the example "Mr. 180 pound 5% BF Guy"...A natural with this stats can easily get to 250+ as an eating machine and lots of hormones....(And of course training hard is a must...Pretty much a given)

As for the weight they push, I would agree with that...The strength and power they have is mostly genetics....