Vets:Muscle gains without weight gains?

[H.pYl0ri]

Ok my workout buddy is trying to figure out a second cycle. His stats are 5'7", 227lbs and probably about 20% bf. His first cycle consisted of the following.

1-10 Ttokkyo Prop 100mg/ED
1-10 Ttokkyo EQ 400mg/wk
8-13 Ttokkyo Stanol V 50mg/ml 50mg/ED
13-16 Clomid:100mg/day wk. 13
75mg/day wk. 14
50mg/day wk. 15
25mg/day wk. 16

Clen:2wks on 2wks off throughout cycle

He started the above cycle at 263lbs. So he's lost around 36lbs. He wants to do another cycle but DOESN'T want to gain too much weight but WANTS more muscle mass. I told him to do the same cycle I'm gonna do next which is:

1-4 75mg Prop ED
1-13 500mg Enan
1-12 400mg EQ
8-13 75mg winnyV ED

Because he'll gain mass and strength witout holding alot of water. I figured he'd be alright but I want to ask some vets what they thought.

[H.pYl0ri]

Bump

[Madmax]

bro if hes at 20% body fat then he should loose some weight before he starts to cycle...and the cycle you gave him i dont believe would be the best cycle for him..Madmax

[H.pYl0ri]

Right on. How's about a suggestion for a cycle for him. His body fat will drop with clen during his cycle. He might even be in the 15%-20% range as far as bodyfat. He wants to gain muscle without weight. So figure he looses 5%-10% more bf while on cycle. well he wants to replace the fat with muscle...C?

[daem]

at his current build, if he dropped 15 pounds of fat he would look much bigger than he currently is.

i doubt that he could lose 5-10% bf while on cycle if he is only using clen...he would need to eat so clean and do so much cardio it would be ridiculous. a more achievable goal would be 2-4% imo as that will be around 10-15 lbs of fat at his current build.

10-15 lbs of fat over an 8-10 wk period of time is definitely doable without AS and he will be able to take advantage of the drugs more if he waits.

it is highly unlikely your friend will get the results he wants here as fat will be covering the muscle until he gets down to 10%.

[H.pYl0ri]

I need to add that we won't be starting until Aug. so by then he might even be down to around 12%. Thats another reason why I figured the prop, enanthate ,eq,winny might be ok. He'll probably be down to 200lbs-210lbs by then. How much weight do you think he would gain off the prop, enanthate ,eq,winny? I planned on around 15lbs-20lbs for myself but our diets are different. so he might gain what? around 10lbs of muscle? or more?

[H.pYl0ri]

he did lose 36lbs while on his cycle with the clen. so we figured he lost about 8-10% bf. while on his cycle. So if he's around 12%bf by aug. then what cycle would be suggested? He eats very clean even post cycle and his cardio routine IS ridiculous

[H.pYl0ri]

bump

[custom fit]

correct me if im wrong, but enanthate will increase his water retention.

while i'm still learning everything, why not put him on a prop/EQ and/or tren/winny cycle.

cycle for your friend revised

1-12 prop
1-7 tren
1-12 EQ
9-14 winny

what do you think about this?

1) ed injections for 13 weeks...OUCH. plus aren't you worried about scar tissue?
2)this is just food for thought.

[H.pYl0ri]

Bump for more opinions.

He did every day shots with the first cycle for 13 wks. No scar tissue to worry about yet...so many places to spot. I actually don't think he wants to do ed for more than 4 wks atleast with the prop. It did give him lumps but they subside.

[Pheedno]

I agree that he needs to hold off and drop some BF%.
I also think he shoulf abstained from doing that first one(700mg of test a wk on a first ) Also, you've stated he's 20%BF and that would mean he started that first cycle at around 33%(not taking into consideration muscle gained)If thats the case, I would not even want to look at this guys bio-chem.

If he gets on that cycle you suggested at 20%, their are a mass of problems that could occur.
1. Blood pressure could sky rocket from the increased blood cell count from the EQ, also making cardio potentially dangerous. Trim 5-7% of that BF(roughly 6-10wks time) and his shape will be much better health wise + gains well be a lot more noticable.

2. Cholesterol is already a problem for him, it has to be. This cycle will just worsen the case. Again by the time he trims 5-7% off, his cholesterol will be much better from the daily cardio and healthy eating it takes to loose that much.

3. Joints are going to take a toll with the winny introduction. He has a lot of uneeded(and unwanted) BF mass that will add insult to injury when those joints dry out

At 13-15%, he can do a cutting cycle safely(or at least as safely as possible) and shed down to 9-10%. And with strict routines in sleep, training, and diet. I think a realistic goal of about 25wks is doable in a safe and healthy manner. A bio-chem work up is highly recommended in any case.

[H.pYl0ri]

Pheedno, thanks for the input. I have a couple of questions though. If he loses about say 17lbs more and got down to 210lbs and his bf is around 13% and he's 5'7", I have to say that he's pretty broad and most his bf is around the gut, what then would you suggest as a cycle for someone with those stats? 5'7" 210lbs 13%bf. This guy isn't fat. He has massive muscle mass in pecs,tri's,shoulders & back. He's probably not at 20% bf but more like 18% at the moment. He has about ten weeks before he wants to do another and knows he'll lose the pounds by then. He was also wondering if he can continue clen while waiting to cycle again. It's been about 6weeks since he's taken it.

[Pheedno]

For a cutter, and with blood work done and coming back OK, I would suggest an 8wk Fina/Prop cycle possibly with some winny in there for 5-6wks.

Fina by far has the best cutting properties out of any AS that I've tried but it is rather harsh so blood work is a must IMO(it's a must for myself on any cycle but I know most don't get that done).


Clen should be fine. He just needs to cycle it in 2wk intervals

[H.pYl0ri]

1-8 fina 75mgs/ed
1-8 prop 100mgs/ed
and then what week shoud the winny be started and ended? 50mg/ed or 75mg/ed?

I also think tha I'm going to do what you suggested for myself but go back to what you originally had said:
"If your looking for mass and strength without water, I would go with

1-4 75mg Prop ED
1-13 500mg Enan
1-12 400mg EQ
7-15 75mg Fina ED

Clomid starts 3 days after Fina.

This should render some good results if you don't mind ED injects.
Seeing as you used the same doses on the Test and EQ last cycle, it can be debated by yourself whether to up that. If you decide to, I would not up the Test above 600 or the EQ above 500.

Be sure to have a prolactin inhibitor and some an anti-e(Nolva or A-dex & Nolva)"

Still good to go? 5'11" 177.6 (as of today) been taking clen to get down to around 11% bf before I start next one.

[custom fit]

taking what pheedno said into consideration with this guys cholesterol, BP and the works, i think those doses will increase everything up.

Fina is known for increasing your BP, and 75 mg/day is WAAAAAY too high, on top of winny and different test.

i would listen to these guys, instead of concocting up a cycle for your friend based on what other gear users are using. Remember they are not in the same situation and body type as your guy.

i may not know as much as some of these guys, but i know CAUTION, when i see a situation like this.

[H.pYl0ri]

Originally posted by custom fit
i would listen to these guys, instead of concocting up a cycle for your friend based on what other gear users are using. Remember they are not in the same situation and body type as your guy.

First of all buddy I didn't concoct any cycles up based on what other gear users are using. I base it on what he wants out of it and what would be good stacks to acheive his goals. Common sense tells you that noone has the same body types or situations. Thats why I'm asking. What, I shouldn't have said his correct stats and gave some stats that are over two months down the road? NO! I understand that he should cut down his BF%. He will and I'm asking what would be a good stack for someone with HIS stats after he trimmed down the BF. His blood pressure was fine throughout his last cycle which was:

1-10 Prop 100mg/ED
1-10 EQ 400mg/wk
8-13 Stanol V 50mg/ml 50mg/ED
And still is fine. He hasn't had ANY sides or signs of high cholesterol. Me on the other hand felt the affects of gyno for some reason and did have blood work done. To my surprise all was fine. But back to you, custom. I really don't understand your post. I ican read what pheedno said and did. He suggested something and I ask specifics. So quit bugg'n. What exactly do you mean when you say CAUTION? Thats ridiculous. That's why I'm on the forum. to be cautious and to learn whats best for my buddy and myself. SO What?:confusion