Arimidex -different situation

[DPTUK]

Hi Guys,

I need your advice about Arimidex . Bear with me on this as its a strange one!

First of all I should point out that I understand that Arimidex is usually used amongst bodybuilders to limit the effects of aromatisation and keep E2 levels in check when using anabolic steroids such as testosterone etc.

However, my situation is a little bit different. Just over a year ago before I started training again (after a very long lay off due to injury, depression and other life circumstances etc which I won't get into) I went to see my doctor for a routine blood test because I just wanted to make sure everything was ok before I started training again and started my diet.

Now at that stage I was seriously obese at 253lb and 35% + bod fat, with a terrible diet consisting of junk food and heavy alcohol intake. My estrogen levels (E2) came back as extremely high, it was something like 168 and my doctor told me it should be less than 100 for normal males and that's why I was getting man boobs etc.

He decided at that stage to prescribe me with Arimidex at 1mg each day which worked great and along with the diet an exercise I lost over 81lb and got down to 13% BF.

However the arimidex gave me the following side effects:

1) Absolutely zero sex drive and no libido.
2) Thinning of hair. I always had a full head of hair and very thick and it seemed to thin out quite a bit. Also apparently by Zinc levels were very low.

After about 3 months after I had my blood tests done again and my E2 levels were showing at less than 50.

I told my doctor about the loss of sex drive and he told me to reduce my dose to 1mg EOD which is the dose I have on for over a year now.

I should point out at no stage was I using testosterone or any other AA's etc and I am 100% natural so far and was doing severe cardio and low carb dieting etc.

I had some recent tests done and its showing my E2 levels as "undetectable" and my doctor has told me to stop the arimidex now as he is concerned with long term use and possibility of developing osteoporosis.

Now my sex drive has improved a little bit, I can get an erection just fine but its like I have absolutely no libido or desire for sex and it's been like that for one year. I honestly don't have a problem with that, I know it sounds like a strange thing to say but in a way I find it liberating not to have a libido etc. It's weird because when I was fat I had a huge sex drive!

I have tried coming off the Arimidex a few times and every time I do my libido comes back with a vengeance but more disconcertingly I feel like I am getting fat and bloated and I lose my vascularity and muscle hardness and my face gets bloated. I don't know if this is all in my head or not? In any case I jumped straight back on the Arimidex.

I also feel like I get more emotional when I stop taking the Arimidex and while I take the Arimidex I almost feel like my emotions are more fact of the matter and I don't seem to get bothered about things as much and it gives me a sense of control which I like.

So I want to know is it possible to drive your E2 levels too low and what would be the health consequences for staying on Arimidex indefinitely without using steroids etc.

The one thing I have noticed with the Arimidex is an awful lot of bone and joint pain and its as if my bones are somehow weaker.

If I stop taking the Arimidex will I get fat, how can I prevent this, this is my main worry!

I have some Nolvadex should I switch to that instead.


Sorry for the long explanation and I appreciate your thoughts.

Regards

[austinite]

Kind of got lost in the middle of reading all of that....

Congrats on the fat loss. Your doctor prescribed quite the heavy dose. That 1mg daily demolished your e2, hence the side effects. 168 with a top range of 100 is not outrageous and likely did not cause gynecomastia . It's likely confused with psuedogynecomastia.

Do you have any other (recent) estradiol serum to share?

[MuscleInk]

The arimidex has crashed your E2. What many people simply don't realize (unless they've researched the topic or are familiar with neuroendocrine medicine) is that every hormone in your body has an OPTIMAL range. Too much or too little of any hormone will cause problems and generate any number of symptoms. Your hormones regulate sleep, mood, memory, appetite, sex, weight control, immunity, digestion, and many other normal and important functions.

Estrogen can be elevated for any number of reasons, including but not limited to pathological conditions, genetics, environmental factors, nutrition, lifestyle choices, age, anabolic use/abuse, and others. Increased body fat correlates with higher levels of estrogen in males and females and can have severe health consequences. Moreover, the effects of high estrogen can be similar to the effects observed when estrogen levels are too low (acne, hair loss, hair growth, myalgia, arthralgia, loss of libido, erectile dysfunction, muscle loss, weight gain, and more)

Your doctor over medicated you in my opinion. Adjustments to diet and exercise along with a dose of 1m per week (max) for 4-6 weeks would have been sufficient to bring your levels within range. Maintaining a healthier body weight (15-20% body fat) will help regulate your hormone levels effectively and keep you feeling better.

[DPTUK]

Kind of got lost in the middle of reading all of that....

Congrats on the fat loss. Your doctor prescribed quite the heavy dose. That 1mg daily demolished your e2, hence the side effects. 168 with a top range of 100 is not outrageous and likely did not cause gynecomastia . It's likely confused with psuedogynecomastia.

Do you have any other (recent) estradiol serum to share?

Hey Austinite,

Thank you so much for the response!

Here are my recent blood test results (14th October), I honestly don't understand what any of this means. I just wanted to make sure everything is ok as I am starting Genotropin GH on Friday for the first time.

Endocrinology: Reference Range

Free T4 Plasma 19.3 (12-22 pmol/L)
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone Serum 1.57 munit/l (0.27-4.20 pmol/l)
Free T3 Serum 5.1 (sorry cant find this)
Follicle Stimulating Hormone Serum Insulin Serum 5.1 (1.5-11.4 u/l)
Luteinising Hormone Serum 3.2 IU/L (1.7-8.6 u/l)
Oestradiol Serum < 50 (28-156pmol/)l
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin Serum H 50.0 nmol/L (14-78 nmol/l)
Testosterone Serum 19.4 nmol/L (7.6-31.4 nmol/l)
Free Androgen Index 40.6 (22-104)

apart from that some other things show up as red are:

Ferritin Serum: H343 mcg/L
Inorganic Phosphate blood H1.49nmol/L

With regards to the Arimidex should I completely stop now, taper down and will this possibly lead to me getting fat?

Thanks so much for your help and knowledge.

Best Regards

[DPTUK]

The arimidex has crashed your E2. What many people simply don't realize (unless they've researched the topic or are familiar with neuroendocrine medicine) is that every hormone in your body has an OPTIMAL range. Too much or too little of any hormone will cause problems and generate any number of symptoms. Your hormones regulate sleep, mood, memory, appetite, sex, weight control, immunity, digestion, and many other normal and important functions.

Estrogen can be elevated for any number of reasons, including but not limited to pathological conditions, genetics, environmental factors, nutrition, lifestyle choices, age, anabolic use/abuse, and others. Increased body fat correlates with higher levels of estrogen in males and females and can have severe health consequences. Moreover, the effects of high estrogen can be similar to the effects observed when estrogen levels are too low (acne, hair loss, hair growth, myalgia, arthralgia, loss of libido, erectile dysfunction, muscle loss, weight gain, and more)

Your doctor over medicated you in my opinion. Adjustments to diet and exercise along with a dose of 1m per week (max) for 4-6 weeks would have been sufficient to bring your levels within range. Maintaining a healthier body weight (15-20% body fat) will help regulate your hormone levels effectively and keep you feeling better.

Hey MuscleInk,

Thank you for your response and awesome arms buddy.

I think you are absolutely right and in retrospect this is what has happened. So the question for me is what I should do next and if I totally stop the Arimidex will there be any negative body composition issues? For example will this effect my testosterone levels etc?

Thanks for the input man, you guys know more about this than my doctor.

[MuscleInk]

Hey MuscleInk,

Thank you for your response and awesome arms buddy.

I think you are absolutely right and in retrospect this is what has happened. So the question for me is what I should do next and if I totally stop the Arimidex will there be any negative body composition issues? For example will this effect my testosterone levels etc?

Thanks for the input man, you guys know more about this than my doctor.

No problem. Do you have reference ranges with the labs? I have a good idea where they should be but it will be helpful to confirm with the ref ranges of the specific lab that ran the tests.

I'd stop with the adex. Your E2 should recover quick. Stay on point with nutrition and training. GH can help lean you out - just be observant of any unusual side effects. It can cause edema, CTS, HTN, and PSN but generally not at low doses.

I'll look back at your labs in a moment. Would be useful to see total T and free T if it wasn't there (on my phone and can't check back mid message since I quoted your response to me). I'll take a closer look at your thyroid too. Some run thyroid supplements with GH but I haven't had to.

[DPTUK]

No problem. Do you have reference ranges with the labs? I have a good idea where they should be but it will be helpful to confirm with the ref ranges of the specific lab that ran the tests.

I'd stop with the adex. Your E2 should recover quick. Stay on point with nutrition and training. GH can help lean you out - just be observant of any unusual side effects. It can cause edema, CTS, HTN, and PSN but generally not at low doses.

I'll look back at your labs in a moment. Would be useful to see total T and free T if it wasn't there (on my phone and can't check back mid message since I quoted your response to me). I'll take a closer look at your thyroid too. Some run thyroid supplements with GH but I haven't had to.

Thank you so much I just updated the post to show the reference ranges used for the lab.

Now I have spoken to my doctor extensively and I have told him that I will be using GH and Test in the future and while he is not happy about this he is willing to give me prescriptions for this.

I am planning to initially use 0.6ml (2 iu) Genotropin FDA Human Grade GH for about 1 month to see how my body reacts.

From the second month I will go up to 1.2ml (4IU) and will run that for minimum of 6 months but more like 1 year.

After about 3 months of GH I will add Verimon Test Prop (again prescribed by my doctor) at 100mg EOD along with 0.5 Arimidex EOD for between 8 to 12 weeks and I plan on doing about 2 cycles of the test a year while maintaining the GH use all year.

I asked my doctor to also give me T4 at 50mcg to run along with the GH but he was adamant that he didn't want to do this as he said my thyroid in on the higher range of the scale but would be willing to reconsider this after further blood tests.

I have 2 questions about the GH which I would appreciate your feedback on:

1) I have always been used to low carb dieting and keto. What percentage of my TDEE do you think should come from carbs when on GH. I rarely go over 150g carbs a day unless its a refeed day.
2) When I go up to 4IU in the second month is it ok if I pin the 4IU in one go first thing in the morning or do I need to do 2 x 2IU injections a day? I have the "miniquick" GH so its already mixed and doesn't need to be refrigerated apparently if used within 90 days.
3) As a total beginer should I just do the Test and GH from the start or wait few months on the GH and then add the test?


Thanks so much for the help and I am really excited about this, I can't wait for this to happen.

[MuscleInk]

Labs look pretty good. Free triiodothyronine (T3) is on the higher side but nothing that I would be concerned about and yes, I would avoid any thyroid supplements unless your levels drop off.

Out of curiosity, what's the rationale for your doc prescribing testosterone ? Your levels are about mid range. Could be slightly higher for your age but certainly not at a level that I believe most would treat you for. You must have a very good relationship with your PCP because prescribing GH off label like this is not widely accepted - although for people north of 40 years of age, I believe it is an appropriate clinical consideration for some (not all) people.

The best advice I can give for your nutrition is to post a plan or seek advice in our nutrition section. There are a lot of great minds lurking about over there waiting to help out. Guys like GBrice, KelKel, 405, Back In Black, and others are top dawgs and can provide more insight on nutrition plans to hit your goals than most people could. When I'm cutting I keep my carbs very low and push my cardio up. I sacrifice a bit of strength for leaning out but then I circle back to bulking to add more lean size.

Have you had your PSA tested recently? With elevated estrogen there is an increased risk for prostate changes. I'm not suggesting there will be in your case, but if you are planning a test cycle, it wouldn't hurt to have a "green light" on that test result.

Your GH doses look good. Make sure you check your blood pressure occasionally if you run GH+Test to make sure you aren't getting into pre-hypertensive or hypertensive areas.

[DPTUK]

Well to be perfectly frank with you there was no rational involved in my doctor prescribing me Testosterone or GH other than my persistent badgering him that is what I wanted to do and that if he didn't support me in this I would go elsewhere. He was not happy about any of this and doesn't want me to do anything and keeps saying I should be happy with my body which by his standards is in excellent shape etc and doesn't need any improvement etc. He point blank told me he thinks I have body dysmorphia and exercise addiction lol!

I should explain he is a private doctor who is also a good family friend and has treated my mother and sister for a number of years and comes around to my house for BBQ's etc so we are quite close in that respect and have had extended philosophical discussions about this. He knows I have an extreme personality type and given my past addictions etc he thinks I will get hooked psychologically and keep wanted to up the dose etc.

Also here in the UK (GH and Anabolic Steroid use ) is perfectly legal for personal use and there are a number of private clinics where you can pretty much get whatever you want if you have the funds.

The other thing to point out is here in the UK there are only 3 products that you can get human grade from a pharmacy and those are a) Genotropin GH, b) Testosterone and c) Deca Durabolin ....nothing else is produced here human grade so those are my only options unless I go down the underground route which I don't want to do as I am really not interested in playing the Russian roulette sourcing and testing game etc.

I am planning a vacation over Christmas to Thailand or Mexico and I will bring back products for personal use, which by UK laws is entirely legal to do so long as you have prescription and do not intend to distribute.

Ideally I would want something like Maestron, real Var or Primabolin (all human grade) but can't get those here unless it's underground stuff which I wouldn't touch as they are almost always fake.

Also since I am a beginner i just need to get some basic simple cycles down before I graduate to the more exotic compounds.

Just one question if I take the GH without test, you still think I should ditch the dex as I was thinking the dex really does help me with water retention especially on the GH etc ?

Thanks so much for your input this means a lot to me, Ive loved bodybuilding since I was 16. For me its so much more than just looking good and being on stage, its a lifetime dream finally being fulfilled and that's an awesome feeling.