Question about permanent endocrine damage

**alcoholocaust** · 01-22-2014, 09:45 AM

Thanks to everyone for responding to my previous thread, I'm hoping to continue my education.

One of the reasons against youngsters (for the record, I'm 23 and I'll likely wait for another year or so if I do make up my mind to run a cycle. I don't think I've grown a centimeter since 18) taking anabolics I keep seeing in my research is that it can damage your natural testosterone production irreversibly.

Is this something any of the members here have run into first hand? How prolific and\or dangerous is this really? Is Arnie on permanent hormone replacement therapy now since he started juicing at 16 or something?

**fit2bOld** · 01-22-2014, 11:26 AM

More than likely Arnie is on replacement. The science behind AAS was in its infancy and little was know about long term side effects.
This is why we are very specific as to use before about age 25.
The body is already is a state that is receptive to growth. Bones are thickening, shoulder girdle widens. Essentially you are becoming a man. I know ya'll think you all grown up at 18 but is not the case.

A solid diet hard training will produce amazing results from 18 to 25.
I personally gained about 50 lbs naturally during that time and have little problem maintaining it today.
At over 50 staying lean and strong are the battles.
Keep up the research

**alcoholocaust** · 01-23-2014, 12:59 AM

Thanks for the response.

I understand that the wise folks here are erring on the side of caution. There is a whole lot of years between 18 and 25 though.

Is there a study or studies you guys can point me to that relay that ~25 years of age thing as the minimum age? Surely, much like turning 21 doesn't magically allow one to be a responsible drinker, 25 is an arbitrary number at least in a sense that it's different for everyone?

**MuscleInk** · 01-23-2014, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by alcoholocaust

Thanks for the response.

I understand that the wise folks here are erring on the side of caution. There is a whole lot of years between 18 and 25 though.

Is there a study or studies you guys can point me to that relay that ~25 years of age thing as the minimum age? Surely, much like turning 21 doesn't magically allow one to be a responsible drinker, 25 is an arbitrary number at least in a sense that it's different for everyone?

So you're asking for empirical evidence of a published study in which males we're exposed to illegal steroids before age 25 to see if the endocrine suppression had any permanent effects????? Ya, good luck finding such a study.

**MuscleInk** · 01-23-2014, 01:14 AM

Rather than go in to a long explanation of the phases of maturation of the neuroendocrine and other physiological systems related to growth, Marcus has it summarized nicely here.

The young and Steroids

**alcoholocaust** · 01-23-2014, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

So you're asking for empirical evidence of a published study in which males we're exposed to illegal steroids before age 25 to see if the endocrine suppression had any permanent effects????? Ya, good luck finding such a study.

No, I just would like to explore where the number 25 came from. Markus posted that his endocrinologist made the claim - I'm not doubting either of those folks, I just would like to familiarize myself with the relevant studies. I'll try to look for them on my own of course, but I figured somebody here might have them on hand. I'm assuming the title will go something like "Changes in endocrine systems of males throughout life" or something of the sort.

I suppose my question has been sufficiently answered anyway, thanks guys.

**Euroholic** · 01-23-2014, 03:50 AM

I got ed and gyno if this helps your question?

**alcoholocaust** · 01-23-2014, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by Euroholic

I got ed and gyno if this helps your question?

Interesting. Totally permanent now that you're off a cycle?

What'd you take? Did you do a PCT?

**Euroholic** · 01-23-2014, 04:18 AM

Pretty much ive been taking 20mg of cialis a day that works a treat. Even the best pct still does not mean you will recover.

**alcoholocaust** · 01-23-2014, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Euroholic

Pretty much ive been taking 20mg of cialis a day that works a treat. Even the best pct still does not mean you will recover.

Can I ask what you ran and at what age?

**dem_gains** · 01-23-2014, 05:29 AM

I think the 25 number is just to be on the safe side. Whilst barely anyone
Is fully developed by 18, most are by 21 or 22. So at 23 you are most likely fine.

In fact a younger guys testosterone is much more
Likely to bounce back than an older man do it's not entirely correct to say that there are no advantages being young.

23-24 is fine provided you have a long time training naturally under your belt and know how to diet and eat.

For a reference point; it seems that most
People (including the young ones) that screw themselves up didn't take a proper cycle.

Stick to test only. Make sure you take
Hcg . Take your ai on cycle. So many idiots think you only
Need an ai if you get gyno and don't bother to
Control their estrogen levels. Have a proper
Pct. wait 6 weeks get blood done.

I'm 23 and just finished my first cycle and
Nearing the end of pct. my mood
Is fine, my dick works fine (not as horny as before though but that's to be expected). I experienced no side effects other than a small amount of Back
Acne and I gained 30lbs and so far kept 25 of
It. Do I regret it? No.

Personally I think the results and side effects will be the same if you start at 23 and if you start at 25. It's only the guys who entered
Puberty real late and aren't still
Developed that should hold off. Hence the conservative
Age of 25 is recommended

**alcoholocaust** · 01-23-2014, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by dem_gains

I think the 25 number is just to be on the safe side. Whilst barely anyone
Is fully developed by 18, most are by 21 or 22. So at 23 you are most likely fine.

In fact a younger guys testosterone is much more
Likely to bounce back than an older man do it's not entirely correct to say that there are no advantages being young.

23-24 is fine provided you have a long time training naturally under your belt and know how to diet and eat.

For a reference point; it seems that most
People (including the young ones) that screw themselves up didn't take a proper cycle.

Stick to test only. Make sure you take
Hcg . Take your ai on cycle. So many idiots think you only
Need an ai if you get gyno and don't bother to
Control their estrogen levels. Have a proper
Pct. wait 6 weeks get blood done.

I'm 23 and just finished my first cycle and
Nearing the end of pct. my mood
Is fine, my dick works fine (not as horny as before though but that's to be expected). I experienced no side effects other than a small amount of Back
Acne and I gained 30lbs and so far kept 25 of
It. Do I regret it? No.

Personally I think the results and side effects will be the same if you start at 23 and if you start at 25. It's only the guys who entered
Puberty real late and aren't still
Developed that should hold off. Hence the conservative
Age of 25 is recommended

I'll take the opportunity to ask:

a) How did your mood change when you started the cycle?
b) What, in retrospect, do you think you think would happen if you did not take HCG?
c) Have you had blood panels done throughout the cycle? If so I'm very curious.

**dem_gains** · 01-23-2014, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by alcoholocaust

I'll take the opportunity to ask:

a) How did your mood change when you started the cycle?
b) What, in retrospect, do you think you think would happen if you did not take HCG ?
c) Have you had blood panels done throughout the cycle? If so I'm very curious.

A) always felt happy. Felt alpha and more focused. Crazy sex drive
B) well my balls would shrink and it would
Make recovery a lot harder. Imperative to me that my system kicks back in ASAP
C) nope couldn't afford. Gonna get some
6 weeks after. But I know my gear was legit