aware me on my flaw of logic

so you got your baseline bloods
your 21 yrs old
6ft tall
185lbs
been lifting for a year
bodyfat percentage is fairly low
total test and free test is on the pretty low side of normal
but not so low that a doctor is like "omg this man needs trt right away"
like 300's total t low

your diet is correct and you have been using a nutrition coach
your lifts are all respectable but not powerlifitng impressive
your not worried about losing your hair or getting acne at this point because they are things you've accepted will happen

you've realized that all the legal supplements aside from whey are a load of crap

your not a millionare so you can't afford hgh

you've done enough research on peptides to realize that your better off spending your money on some chicken

you understand how to properly pct

you have a source to a ugl that you are pretty sure will come thru

you have the money to spend

you understand how to use moneygram anonymously and how to have it shipped to a location anonymously

you've already used proscar.. which is a 100x more dangerous than any anabolic steroid IMO btw.. for a year so you really don't believe the mumbo jumbo that an exogenous hormone will ruin your system.


you understand your not at your genetic limit but you really don't care because any progress you make past your genetic limit using AAS can not be maintained and you absolutely are 100% sure you want to use AAS one day so you are guaranteed to max out that limit anyways at some point. (what is the point of getting to a limit to use a substance to take you past that limit when your guaranteed to have your body shrink back to that limit when you stop using the substance, why not just be content being 185 and then let AAS take you to whatever your limit is and then be content at your new size)

what would be the horrible downfall of someone in this scenario running a test cycle and then doing the proper pct,

are their hormones/health ruined? no.. I honestly think smoking and alcohol and extacy is worse for you which 99% of ppl my age do and I don't.

are they doing this totally irresponsibly? I think im more informed than most dudes before they do their first cycle





just looking for constructive criticism because im bored thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vito93x

so you got your baseline bloods
your 21 yrs old
6ft tall
185lbs
been lifting for a year
bodyfat percentage is fairly low
total test and free test is on the pretty low side of normal
but not so low that a doctor is like "omg this man needs trt right away"
like 300's total t low

your diet is correct and you have been using a nutrition coach
your lifts are all respectable but not powerlifitng impressive
your not worried about losing your hair or getting acne at this point because they are things you've accepted will happen

you've realized that all the legal supplements aside from whey are a load of crap

your not a millionare so you can't afford hgh

you've done enough research on peptides to realize that your better off spending your money on some chicken

you understand how to properly pct

you have a source to a ugl that you are pretty sure will come thru

you have the money to spend

you understand how to use moneygram anonymously and how to have it shipped to a location anonymously

you've already used proscar.. which is a 100x more dangerous than any anabolic steroid IMO btw.. for a year so you really don't believe the mumbo jumbo that an exogenous hormone will ruin your system.

you understand your not at your genetic limit but you really don't care because any progress you make past your genetic limit using AAS can not be maintained and you absolutely are 100% sure you want to use AAS one day so you are guaranteed to max out that limit anyways at some point. (what is the point of getting to a limit to use a substance to take you past that limit when your guaranteed to have your body shrink back to that limit when you stop using the substance, why not just be content being 185 and then let AAS take you to whatever your limit is and then be content at your new size)

what would be the horrible downfall of someone in this scenario running a test cycle and then doing the proper pct,

are their hormones/health ruined? no.. I honestly think smoking and alcohol and extacy is worse for you which 99% of ppl my age do and I don't.

are they doing this totally irresponsibly? I think im more informed than most dudes before they do their first cycle

just looking for constructive criticism because im bored thanks.

---

Then go the gym!!!

What you need to understand that the majority of ( in this case male) are not fully finished growing . You may feel like billy big balls , but you cant see whats going on inside .

So lets say you take test , you suppress your natural test . There is a possibilty that you do not recover during PCT because you have damged yourself from such high doses of synthetic test .

There was a guy who posted about a week ago . He done a cycle at low 20's , done his pct , 6 months later goes to doctors , gets put on TRT

Search threads youll find it

Yesterday, 07:41 PM #31 vito93x
Junior Member

Join Date
Nov 2013
Posts
107
nope u must have at least 20yrs serious training before even considering the realm of AAS, I have counted every micro/macro carb fat and protein for the past several years and haven't missed a workout in 8 years and I am 27yrs old and 6ft tall 320lbs at 5% bf and I am nowhere near my genetic potential.

Wow. Who are you. Your post history reads like a work of fiction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Capebuffalo

Yesterday, 07:41 PM #31 vito93x
Junior Member

Join Date
Nov 2013
Posts
107
nope u must have at least 20yrs serious training before even considering the realm of AAS, I have counted every micro/macro carb fat and protein for the past several years and haven't missed a workout in 8 years and I am 27yrs old and 6ft tall 320lbs at 5% bf and I am nowhere near my genetic potential.

Wow. Who are you. Your post history reads like a work of fiction.

---

that was a joke man I assumed most people could tell. come on coleman was 300lbs at 5'11, its pretty obvious I was being sarcastic with that post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiid13

What you need to understand that the majority of ( in this case male) are not fully finished growing . You may feel like billy big balls , but you cant see whats going on inside .

So lets say you take test , you suppress your natural test . There is a possibilty that you do not recover during PCT because you have damged yourself from such high doses of synthetic test .

There was a guy who posted about a week ago . He done a cycle at low 20's , done his pct , 6 months later goes to doctors , gets put on TRT

Search threads youll find it

---

yes but I already wanna go on trt as soon as I can cuz im stuck in the 300's mate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vito93x

yes but I already wanna go on trt as soon as I can cuz im stuck in the 300's mate.

---

TRT is testosterone REPLACEMENT therapy , they replace your testosterone , they dont give you 12 weeks worth of 500/600 a week .... I think you need to reconsider your outlook on steroids .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vito93x

so you got your baseline bloods
your 21 yrs old
6ft tall
185lbs
been lifting for a year
bodyfat percentage is fairly low
total test and free test is on the pretty low side of normal
but not so low that a doctor is like "omg this man needs trt right away"
like 300's total t low

your diet is correct and you have been using a nutrition coach
your lifts are all respectable but not powerlifitng impressive
your not worried about losing your hair or getting acne at this point because they are things you've accepted will happen

you've realized that all the legal supplements aside from whey are a load of crap

your not a millionare so you can't afford hgh

you've done enough research on peptides to realize that your better off spending your money on some chicken

you understand how to properly pct

you have a source to a ugl that you are pretty sure will come thru

you have the money to spend

you understand how to use moneygram anonymously and how to have it shipped to a location anonymously

you've already used proscar.. which is a 100x more dangerous than any anabolic steroid IMO btw.. for a year so you really don't believe the mumbo jumbo that an exogenous hormone will ruin your system.


you understand your not at your genetic limit but you really don't care because any progress you make past your genetic limit using AAS can not be maintained and you absolutely are 100% sure you want to use AAS one day so you are guaranteed to max out that limit anyways at some point. (what is the point of getting to a limit to use a substance to take you past that limit when your guaranteed to have your body shrink back to that limit when you stop using the substance, why not just be content being 185 and then let AAS take you to whatever your limit is and then be content at your new size)

what would be the horrible downfall of someone in this scenario running a test cycle and then doing the proper pct,

are their hormones/health ruined? no.. I honestly think smoking and alcohol and extacy is worse for you which 99% of ppl my age do and I don't.

are they doing this totally irresponsibly? I think im more informed than most dudes before they do their first cycle





just looking for constructive criticism because im bored thanks.

---

too young. you are only 21. wait for a few more years til your mid 20's , until your hormonal system has fully matured. It's (your hormonal system) is still developing and you dont' want to screw with this development by taking AAS until then.

Good luck!
---Roman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vito93x

that was a joke man I assumed most people could tell. come on coleman was 300lbs at 5'11, its pretty obvious I was being sarcastic with that post.

---

Sorry I couldn't tell with all the post you made yesterday to get your count up.

Good luck

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.
Marcus

AGE
In humans your Endocrine system is not fully functional until an average age of 25yrs, although the main development is up to around 21yrs it still fluctuates a little bit up to its fully functional age. There is a risk of permanently damaging your HPTA if you take AAS to young and you could end up with symptoms of andropause and HRT for life. Symptoms could be Limp dick, low libido, depression, low energy, low endurance, erection problems and many more but.......are these the types of symptoms you want to have in your 20's?. Believe me its hard to cope with these in your 40's yet alone in your prime of your life.

Around this age your Testosterone levels are the highest they going to be in your life naturally, so use what you have and don't take the risk of damage, I am passionate about this because ive seen it many times with young kids wanting to looking like their heroes and they think the answer is in an injection/tablet.

Taking AAS to young can also cause problems with development, one other main problem is premature sealing of your epiphyeal bone and the consequences mean that you wont grow as big as your genetics could allow you to, there is a test which can be done to see if your growth plates have sealed yet but the average age is around 21yrs old.



TRAINING
You need a few years of hard training under your belt before even considering taking any kind of anabolic support, people who jump on a cycle to soon without having some quality years under their belt usually results in injuries, it takes time to develop your connective tissue, tendons and nervous system to heavy overload training. Slowly getting your own system use to these kinds of extreme's will only help in muscle growth later on when you do decide to start taking AAS.

Build a solid foundation for muscle tissue to grow and maintaining and development will be far greater than without it. Many younger guys will start cycling before they have reached their genetic potential which is crazy when a good solid diet and training program will be far beneficial and productive to muscle building.

Workouts should be mainly focused on basic movements with a priority of over loading the muscle each and ever time you train, increasing your strength and ability to lift in proper form will help with building the foundation for future development


DIET
A lot of younger bodybuilders don't know how to eat. Researching and understanding how your own body responds will help you get to your natural limit, the right food at the right time and a full understanding of proteins,carbs, and fats will only help you succeed in achieving your natural goals. Keeping a diet diary will also help you understand the importance of macro, nutrients, calories and should help you see in which areas you could be going wrong in adding lean muscle tissue.

No matter how much anabolic support you have it will be worthless without proper nutrition, food will help build and maintain your valued muscle weather its natural, cycling or in PCT. Adjusting your food intake and consuming muscle building foods coupled with a solid training program will help you achieve your natural limit and foundation before you start AAS use.

This area is a huge problem with the younger guys and I can't express enough how important diet/food is when first starting out, post and pre training nutrition are very important and understanding how to load and feed the body will help push growth and create a very natural anabolic environment.

All you need to learn how to eat correctly and to train for size and mass, both areas are the answer to your goals.

You have two choice.

Find the root cause of your low T.
Pass years trying to fix it with a high chance of failing and needing TRT.
If you suceed you probably wont as good as you are supose to and will probably still need TRT in your early 30's.

Or

**** it and TRT now and start enjoying your life. You are doomed to it better deal with it.

I'm in a similar situation and I know what I prefer.

But what do I know?? Im young stupid and immature I can't take any descision by myself and blablabla.

Good luck

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by qscgugcsq

You have two choice.

Find the root cause of your low T.
Pass years trying to fix it with a high chance of failing and needing TRT.
If you suceed you probably wont as good as you are supose to and will probably still need TRT in your early 30's.

Or

**** it and TRT now and start enjoying your life. You are doomed to it better deal with it.

I'm in a similar situation and I know what I prefer.

But what do I know?? Im young stupid and immature I can't take any descision by myself and blablabla.

Good luck

---

A bit short sighted to think you will always have access to testosterone. Life rarely goes as planned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlphaMike

A bit short sighted to think you will always have access to testosterone. Life rarely goes as planned.

---

Why would it be hard??

I plan on self medicaing long enough that I will be able to get it prescribed... once im totally shutdown I go meet my endo again, if she refuse I continue searching while self medicating.

is that optimal, no. But I rather do that than feel like shit while doing the exact same thing(searching an endo).

And for as far as I know steroid has been avaiable for decades now, and their use is only growing. I dont see how it would be impossible to get our hands on in 10 years.(UGL I mean)

As far as pharm grade goes, the needs for TRT keeps growing too, we keep seeing anti aging clinic, more and more of online clinic like low T.com offering TRT service at very reasonable price.

How it is short sighted??

Except if we enter in a third world war which every hospital and governement are destroyed and everything is anarchy, we will continue to get medical care. And if it happens one day we will have way bigger issue than the size of our biceps...
Dont you think?

Yall may laugh, but one of my biggest worries is the apocalypses or some major downfall in our society. Even losing my health insurance has a bigger impact now.

Why?

Cause I made the choice to take the needle (best choice for me given my problems) however, I'm 100% screwed worse than I was before if something were to happen and I can't get this stuff... I think about that frequently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by qscgugcsq

Why would it be hard??

I plan on self medicaing long enough that I will be able to get it prescribed... once im totally shutdown I go meet my endo again, if she refuse I continue searching while self medicating.

is that optimal, no. But I rather do that than feel like shit while doing the exact same thing(searching an endo).

And for as far as I know steroid has been avaiable for decades now, and their use is only growing. I dont see how it would be impossible to get our hands on in 10 years.(UGL I mean)

As far as pharm grade goes, the needs for TRT keeps growing too, we keep seeing anti aging clinic, more and more of online clinic like low T.com offering TRT service at very reasonable price.

How it is short sighted??

Except if we enter in a third world war which every hospital and governement are destroyed and everything is anarchy, we will continue to get medical care. And if it happens one day we will have way bigger issue than the size of our biceps...
Dont you think?

---

This is the only contingency in which you see yourself not having access to unprescribed testosterone? Its not free last time I checked, and you're not always guaranteed to be in a position to pay for it.
We've also seen some nice examples of UGL's stepping up to meet the demand with less expensive but tainted product.

I'm all for solving problems man, but don't create a possibly larger one for yourself by putting all your eggs in one basket.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GSXRvi6

Yall may laugh, but one of my biggest worries is the apocalypses or some major downfall in our society. Even losing my health insurance has a bigger impact now.

Why?

Cause I made the choice to take the needle (best choice for me given my problems) however, I'm 100% screwed worse than I was before if something were to happen and I can't get this stuff... I think about that frequently.

---

I understand that fear, but an easy fix would be to stock up. I would honestly say to stock up in powder! so you can cook years ahead for yourself.

But lets be honest if you lose your insurance their is still UGL.
I can't tell price but All include(BW 3 times a years, Test/arimidex/HCG/pin) for a US citizen is way cheaper than low-T.com and keep in mind they have a very reasonable price!

Scare of infection? autoclave it yourself!
Feer of underdosed gear?? You got BW to verify!

I never said that TRT have no problem. But it is way better than lowT/depression/ED/getting fat and losing muscle.
I just say that it worth it 10 times.

I admit that I'm lucky I live in a country where medical care are free. but UGL are way harder to get and more expensive.
In my case it's cheaper to get prescribed stuff than UGL.
But it still worth it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlphaMike

This is the only contingency in which you see yourself not having access to unprescribed testosterone? Its not free last time I checked, and you're not always guaranteed to be in a position to pay for it.
We've also seen some nice examples of UGL's stepping up to meet the demand with less expensive but tainted product.

I'm all for solving problems man, but don't create a possibly larger one for yourself by putting all your eggs in one basket.

---

Being unable to afford is out of the question, cause of the too generous wellfar that my country offer.
Even if something happens to me That I can't work anywhere anymore I woud still be able to afford it.

And it is not very expensive when you consider that most people working for minimum salary still smoke a pack a day and 1-2 beer every evening and still are able to live.

I'm not saying thats the life I want, but being truly send into the street without any possession is highly not likely. therefore I'm ready to take that risk without hesitation.
And in the street you won't be able to eat proper food nor enough to sustain your endocrine fonction. so you will still feel low T symptomes even if you are out of TRT.

Yes UGL get greedy, that's why I'm plannig to get it legally prescribed that Like side above is cheaper for me than UGL.
And as far as I know legal Pharmacy do not get contaminated cause of greeds.
A lifetime of UGL product is highly dangerous if no precaution are taken. I toatlly agree with that!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlphaMike

This is the only contingency in which you see yourself not having access to unprescribed testosterone? Its not free last time I checked, and you're not always guaranteed to be in a position to pay for it.
We've also seen some nice examples of UGL's stepping up to meet the demand with less expensive but tainted product.

I'm all for solving problems man, but don't create a possibly larger one for yourself by putting all your eggs in one basket.

---

I got some question for you.

Will you stop lifting cause you may injure yourself??
Will you stop having sex cause you could get std's??
Will you stop taking your car cause you could die in a accident?
I could continue like this all day long...

Eveything have risk... Why you are still doing them?
Cause you can reduce the risk! You can lift safely, you can protect yourself, you can drive slowly.
Same with TRT, yes it have danger, but you can do things to reduce the risk.
Can you still get std's with condom, yes, the condom could break.
Can you still get an accident in car even if you drive slowly? Yes someone else could hit you.
can you still get injured while training? Yes, accident happens...

See the point?

You volontarly choose to still do these activity even thought you know it can be dangerous cause you estimate that the risk is low enough to make it worth it.

^ Your age is shining through... as expected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by austinite

^ Your age is shining through... as expected.

---

YEAH! I know isn't that awesome! I even precised it in my first reply that im young immature and stupid!

Ah you and your comments always full of wisdom and pertinance! You truly know me!
Keep that I love it. You know me so well!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by qscgugcsq

YEAH! I know isn't that awesome! I even precised it in my first reply that im young immature and stupid!

Ah you and your comments always full of wisdom and pertinance! You truly know me!
Keep that I love it. You know me so well!!

---

True. Shouldn't you be out skateboarding?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by austinite

True. Shouldn't you be out skateboarding?

---

You know what this thread reminds me of Aust .
Those nights you and I would sit around a camp fire singing Kombiar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by qscgugcsq

Being unable to afford is out of the question, cause of the too generous wellfar that my country offer.
Even if something happens to me That I can't work anywhere anymore I woud still be able to afford it.

And it is not very expensive when you consider that most people working for minimum salary still smoke a pack a day and 1-2 beer every evening and still are able to live.

I'm not saying thats the life I want, but being truly send into the street without any possession is highly not likely. therefore I'm ready to take that risk without hesitation.
And in the street you won't be able to eat proper food nor enough to sustain your endocrine fonction. so you will still feel low T symptomes even if you are out of TRT.

Yes UGL get greedy, that's why I'm plannig to get it legally prescribed that Like side above is cheaper for me than UGL.
And as far as I know legal Pharmacy do not get contaminated cause of greeds.
A lifetime of UGL product is highly dangerous if no precaution are taken. I toatlly agree with that!

---

Lets see, 100mg / wk for lets say 50 years (lets assume I am gonna make it) that's roughly what, 130 10ml containers? (something tells me test won't sit on the shelf for 50 years). I would need 5,200 needles. Yea, that's realistic, I mean if I get busted I just say I'm stocking up for the long haul.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GSXRvi6

Lets see, 100mg / wk for lets say 50 years (lets assume I am gonna make it) that's roughly what, 130 10ml containers? (something tells me test won't sit on the shelf for 50 years). I would need 5,200 needles. Yea, that's realistic, I mean if I get busted I just say I'm stocking up for the long haul.

---

130 vial of test-e 250mg/ml
Makes 130x2.5G= 325g
In powder ots pretty cheap... Actually probably under a grand.
The needle you could chop that ammount in half and pin once a week.
So 2600 so 26 pack of 100 so about 400$

But yes not easy but not that crazy.

I doubt that the guy will walk out of the Dr.s office with 250mg a week.
Reality check:
A life time of doctor visits blood work and pills(AI) if indicated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by qscgugcsq

130 vial of test-e 250mg/ml
Makes 130x2.5G= 325g
In powder ots pretty cheap... Actually probably under a grand.
The needle you could chop that ammount in half and pin once a week.
So 2600 so 26 pack of 100 so about 400$

But yes not easy but not that crazy.

---

I run cyp 200 not enth 250

Powder = pound me in the ass prison time.

getting busted with 130 vials = pound me in the ass prison time.

I think the biggest issue here is I'm old and now I have to use this the rest of my life so I'm like meh your young with your head up your ass and all you can think is "JUICE!"

If the zombies start walking the first thing I'm doing is raiding the pharmacy for Clomid and Nolva

if zombies hit im blowing my brains out. end of story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vito93x

so you got your baseline bloods your 21 yrs old 6ft tall 185lbs been lifting for a year bodyfat percentage is fairly low total test and free test is on the pretty low side of normal but not so low that a doctor is like "omg this man needs trt right away" like 300's total t low your diet is correct and you have been using a nutrition coach your lifts are all respectable but not powerlifitng impressive your not worried about losing your hair or getting acne at this point because they are things you've accepted will happen you've realized that all the legal supplements aside from whey are a load of crap your not a millionare so you can't afford hgh you've done enough research on peptides to realize that your better off spending your money on some chicken you understand how to properly pct you have a source to a ugl that you are pretty sure will come thru you have the money to spend you understand how to use moneygram anonymously and how to have it shipped to a location anonymously you've already used proscar.. which is a 100x more dangerous than any anabolic steroid IMO btw.. for a year so you really don't believe the mumbo jumbo that an exogenous hormone will ruin your system. you understand your not at your genetic limit but you really don't care because any progress you make past your genetic limit using AAS can not be maintained and you absolutely are 100% sure you want to use AAS one day so you are guaranteed to max out that limit anyways at some point. (what is the point of getting to a limit to use a substance to take you past that limit when your guaranteed to have your body shrink back to that limit when you stop using the substance, why not just be content being 185 and then let AAS take you to whatever your limit is and then be content at your new size) what would be the horrible downfall of someone in this scenario running a test cycle and then doing the proper pct, are their hormones/health ruined? no.. I honestly think smoking and alcohol and extacy is worse for you which 99% of ppl my age do and I don't. are they doing this totally irresponsibly? I think im more informed than most dudes before they do their first cycle just looking for constructive criticism because im bored thanks.

---

I thought you were 320 lbs at 5% bf?

People want to offer you sound advice. It is up to you whether you want to take any of it. Good luck!