Can steroids make you infertile?

[Anxnymous]

My wife and I are starting to try and make a kid, I was wondering will my past cycle enable me to make a kid or if I start another cycle will I still be fertile to make a kid? I'm in the army and just got stationed in Ft. Carson, CO and figured this would be a good place to start a family

[davesah1]

in enough time yes, bc of LH shutdown which = no sperm production. Blast HCG if your on cycle and feel infertile. (Clear cum) Usually takes about 8 weeks on test only to notice it becoming more clear (for me) but I'm a young'n. Tren made that shit turn clear within two weeks.

[Anxnymous]

After a cycle will it go back to normal? Or is it permanent damage?

[davesah1]

depends on recovery, if your PCT is solid and your natty test comes back then indeed that means that your LH is back, bc it is the precursor to making test within your body. So if your off gear and get bloods after PCT and test is back, so will your LH and sperm count.

*P.S. Don't take HCG for whole cycle like some people claim. LH desentitization occurs after 17 days or so. So the prime time to use it is that window of waiting before PCT which is usually 14-17 days if your using cyp or enth. Prop im not sure. I dont use short estered test.

[Anxnymous]

Alright precipitate it!

[davesah1]

no problem, if you want to be extra caution you can PCT for 5 or 6 weeks with the last week or two using half the dose of that of week four for a smoother taper. Depends on length of cycle, compounds used, and dose. I did a 6 weeker for a 20 week test e cycle (600mgs a week) and am all good, but I'm young so my body recovers faster than my 30 or 40 year old counterparts. Best of luck man!

[jdc91gt]

depends on recovery, if your PCT is solid and your natty test comes back then indeed that means that your LH is back, bc it is the precursor to making test within your body. So if your off gear and get bloods after PCT and test is back, so will your LH and sperm count.

*P.S. Don't take HCG for whole cycle like some people claim. LH desentitization occurs after 17 days or so. So the prime time to use it is that window of waiting before PCT which is usually 14-17 days if your using cyp or enth. Prop im not sure. I dont use short estered test.

Question: where are you getting your info regarding LH desensitization? I'm not saying that's not true, just curious if you have a link for us or a study? I'm interested. Most newer studies do not indicate such if dosing is kept low. See below:

HCG - Unraveled
By Eric M. Potratz (Email)


Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.




Post-Cycle-Therapy is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great Post Cycle Therapy protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.



hCG unraveled -

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to increase testosterone levels. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.


When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) - All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during Post-Cycle-Therapy. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.




First, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960's) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function - but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won't regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger natural testosterone production - and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)




To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!







The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20



In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn't use it on cycle.



Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it's important to discontinue the hCG before you start Post-Cycle-Therapy so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body's own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)



Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.

If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)



Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.




Recap -

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.


In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.




References -

1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.

Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466-495

2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.

Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869-882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats

SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.

Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906-2915.

6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men

Katrine Bay, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.

7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human

chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, et al.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003

8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic steroids in power athletes

Hannu et al.
J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)

9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate.

Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980
Fertil Steril 33:201-203

10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.

Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282-287

11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.

Longcope C et al
Steroids 21:583-590 (1973)

12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.

Catt KJ, et al
Rec Prog Horm Res 1980; 36:557-622

13. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on the endocrine function of Papio testes

GV Katsiia, et al
Probl Endokrinol (Mosk), Sep 1984; 30(5): 68-71.

14. Reproductive function in young fathers and grandfathers.

Nieschlag E, et al.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 55:676-681 (1982)

15. The aging Leydig cell III Gonadotropin stimulation in men.

Nankin HR, et al. 1981
J Androl 2:181-189

16. Reproductive hormones in aging men. I. Measurement of sex steroids, basal luteinizing hormone, and Leydig cell response to human chorionic gonadotropin.

Harman SM, et al. 1980
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 51:35-40

17. Prolonged biphasic response of plasma testosterone to single intramuscular injections of human chorionic gonadotropin.

Padron RS, et al. 1980
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 50:1100-1104

18. Gonadotrophins and plasma testosterone in senescence. In: James VHT, Serio M, Martini L, eds. The endocrine function of the human testis.

Mazzi C, et al. 1974
New York: Academic Press, Inc.; 51-66

19. Androgen biosynthesis in Leydig cells after testicular desensitization by luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone and human chorionic gonadotropin.

Dufau ML, et al.
Endocrinology 105 1314-1321 (1979)

20. Insulin-Like Factor 3 Serum Levels in 135 Normal Men and 85 Men with Testicular Disorders: Relationship to the Luteinizing Hormone-Testosterone Axis

K. Bay, S. et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Jun 2005; 90: 3410 - 3418.

21. Stimulation of sperm production by human chorionic gonadotropin after prolonged gonadotropin suppression in normal men.

Matsumoto AM, et al 1985
J Androl 6:137-143

22. Human chorionic gonadotropin and testicular function: stimulation of testosterone, testosterone precursors, and sperm production despite high estradiol levels.

[RangerDanger830]

depends on recovery, if your PCT is solid and your natty test comes back then indeed that means that your LH is back, bc it is the precursor to making test within your body. So if your off gear and get bloods after PCT and test is back, so will your LH and sperm count.

*P.S. Don't take HCG for whole cycle like some people claim. LH desentitization occurs after 17 days or so. So the prime time to use it is that window of waiting before PCT which is usually 14-17 days if your using cyp or enth. Prop im not sure. I dont use short estered test.

Post peer-reviewed evidence or I won't believe it.

[davesah1]

it was from dan duchaines book and my father is a doctor working with HRT patients.

[davesah1]

makes sense if you use simple logic, why do you cycle off steroids? bc your body get used to or desensitized to having a super surplus of test. Why do smack heads needs more and more smack to get high, given enough of any drug on a daily basis your body will adjust. If you don't need to produce LH on cycle and you make your body do it, its going to get desensitized and stop. The concept of homeostasis is a powerful thing.

[davesah1]

so yeah it might still work to bring back LH after running through a whole cycle but the dose youll need will be a lot more. IMHO and after research.

[davesah1]

Read Dan Duchaines handbook and google HCG rehabilitation for patients.

[RangerDanger830]

Read Dan Duchaines handbook and google HCG rehabilitation for patients.

Handbooks are not credible, scientific studies are.

[davesah1]

well all I'm saying is you will get desensitized to anything from fear to drugs. Granted it is dose dependent, so 250 IU might not do shit, but 2,500 IU on cycle for 12 weeks or more...... HCG will lose its effect as everything does.

[austinite]

depends on recovery, if your PCT is solid and your natty test comes back then indeed that means that your LH is back, bc it is the precursor to making test within your body. So if your off gear and get bloods after PCT and test is back, so will your LH and sperm count.

*P.S. Don't take HCG for whole cycle like some people claim. LH desentitization occurs after 17 days or so. So the prime time to use it is that window of waiting before PCT which is usually 14-17 days if your using cyp or enth. Prop im not sure. I dont use short estered test.

Wow. Very irresponsible and nonsensical post. You really need to re-educate yourself.

[davesah1]

I just don't understand the need to pin it during cycle. Use it when you need it aka prepping for PCT but its not necessary to synthetically stimulate what your body is shutting down for 12+ weeks. I will greatly appreciate a study proving me wrong, but I do believe his "handbook" in which in which i'm drawing this conclusion from what not him speaking but actual medical practitioners for HRT.

[davesah1]

its nonsensical to use a substance that stimulates something (LH) your body does not need for over 12+ weeks. you get desensitized to anything from roids, to heroin, to HCG. consistent daily use will result in your body being nowhere near as responsive to the drug as it would have been.. So yeah take it for 12 or 16 weeks. But when your blasting for pct, my 2000 IU's is going to be a lot more effective than your 2000 IU's. I'm not saying you wont produce LH because your blasting HCG during cycle, however HCG;s effects on stimulating that LH will diminish. esp after long time intervals.

[austinite]

I just don't understand the need to pin it during cycle. Use it when you need it aka prepping for PCT but its not necessary to synthetically stimulate what your body is shutting down for 12+ weeks. I will greatly appreciate a study proving me wrong, but I do believe his "handbook" in which in which i'm drawing this conclusion from what not him speaking but actual medical practitioners for HRT.

You demand a study yet you believe in a "Handbook"? Kind of odd, don't you think?

[austinite]

its nonsensical to use a substance that stimulates something (LH) your body does not need for over 12+ weeks. you get desensitized to anything from roids, to heroin, to HCG. consistent daily use will result in your body being nowhere near as responsive to the drug as it would have been.. So yeah take it for 12 or 16 weeks. But when your blasting for pct, my 2000 IU's is going to be a lot more effective than your 2000 IU's. I'm not saying you wont produce LH because your blasting HCG during cycle, however HCG;s effects on stimulating that LH will diminish. esp after long time intervals.

It does NOT stimulate LH. This is why you need to re-educate yourself. You don't really seem to know what hCG is and what it does.

[davesah1]

handbooks are based off study's. It has references. It not like some guy was taking a shit and decided to write a book. regardless just use common sense, HCG is not immune to the same thing that every drug experiences over long time periods of administration.

[RangerDanger830]

I just don't understand the need to pin it during cycle. Use it when you need it aka prepping for PCT but its not necessary to synthetically stimulate what your body is shutting down for 12+ weeks. I will greatly appreciate a study proving me wrong, but I do believe his "handbook" in which in which i'm drawing this conclusion from what not him speaking but actual medical practitioners for HRT.

I will gladly provide a study proving you wrong. This particular one focuses on receptor occupancy after injections of various doses of HCG. I do 250iu every 3.5 days usually. According to this study after 200iu injections most receptors were occupied and a lot were what you would call desensitized very shortly after injection, shorter than I initially thought honestly. However, it states that just three days after injections that most of the receptors are back to the control levels. It also states there was absolutely no desensitization of HCGs ability to boost natural test production throughout the length of their study.

Will they get desensitized? Maybe, but it would take quite awhile or quite a large dose like you alluded to. I don't do lengthy cycles and I definitely don't blast hcg and never really recommended anyone do that either.

http://m.pnas.org/content/74/2/592.full.pdf

[davesah1]

exactly you proved me wrong and right. 250IU is nowhere near the amount during PCT. Im saying don't be pinning 2,500 IU's the whole thinking it totally fine. also thats every 3.5 DAYS. PCT you pin everyday. So you are using a very small amount compared to what you should use during PCT, which is good. I just see some people pinning 2,000 IU ED or EOD. Thats not good at all.

[davesah1]

not during PCT to clarify... that window of waiting to start the SERMs

[davesah1]

btw i doubt 250 IU's every day will have LH back to normal. Maybe sperm will be produced but I really doubt 250 IU's will get your LH to normal. Granted tho your body only really needs it produce sperm (on cycle). I'm not saying your wrong for that amont, but I hate when I see people blasting it for 12+ weeks.

[RangerDanger830]

Anyone pinning hcg during pct is wrong to begin with if you ask me.

[Bio-Active]

exactly you proved me wrong and right. 250IU is nowhere near the amount during PCT. Im saying don't be pinning 2,500 IU's the whole thinking it totally fine. also thats every 3.5 DAYS. PCT you pin everyday. So you are using a very small amount compared to what you should use during PCT, which is good. I just see some people pinning 2,000 IU ED or EOD. Thats not good at all.

Are you reading about the power pct? Running hcg during pct is counterproductive as it will suppress lh function as hcg mimics it

[austinite]

handbooks are based off study's. It has references. It not like some guy was taking a shit and decided to write a book. regardless just use common sense, HCG is not immune to the same thing that every drug experiences over long time periods of administration.

You don't even know what hCG does. You think it produces Lh when in fact it suppresses LH.

Studies are rarely un-debunkable due to incompleteness. I'm telling you, davesah1, you MUST understand your endocrine system in its entirety prior to saying random things like this. These are signs that you likely wouldn't even understand the complexity and terminology of a legible study to make a more informed decision.

[davesah1]

also what the duration of that 250 IU study? and were they on excess test or other AAS?

[austinite]

btw i doubt 250 IU's every day will have LH back to normal. Maybe sperm will be produced but I really doubt 250 IU's will get your LH to normal. Granted tho your body only really needs it produce sperm (on cycle). I'm not saying your wrong for that amont, but I hate when I see people blasting it for 12+ weeks.

LH IS MIMICKED, NOT PRODUCED. If you don't understand this please say something so we can explain it.

[RangerDanger830]

also what the duration of that 250 IU study? and were they on excess test or other AAS?

Well I'm not going to read it out loud to you, I hooked you up with the link.

[davesah1]

It doesnt produce LH it stimulates your pituitary to produce LH. right? Im not professional HCG administer but I've looked into these substances for about 2 years before I started my first, while I honestly like this debate, I'm not an ignorant meathead I promise.

[austinite]

It doesnt produce LH it stimulates your pituitary to produce LH. right? Im not professional HCG administer but I've looked into these substances for about 2 years before I started my first, while I honestly like this debate, I'm not an ignorant meathead I promise.

No. It Stops the pituitary from producing it. It MIMICKS LH analog.

[davesah1]

250 IU is nothing though hear me out, you wouldn't use 250 IU as PCT prep. I'm just mean don't use the dose you would to prepare for a full PCT during your entire cycle. Is that really that far fetched?

[RangerDanger830]

It doesnt produce LH it stimulates your pituitary to produce LH. right? Im not professional HCG administer but I've looked into these substances for about 2 years before I started my first, while I honestly like this debate, I'm not an ignorant meathead I promise.

I'm not saying you are, I don't know you. I know enough about austinite to know he has put in plenty of time researching hcg and I use it in my lab on a weekly basis so were not here just to put you down.

[davesah1]

ok so it stops it so then perhaps there would be a rebound effect from using it? and its best to use all the time on cycle? Idk. good looks guys

[RangerDanger830]

ok so it stops it so then perhaps there would be a rebound effect from using it? and its best to use all the time on cycle? Idk. good looks guys

Sincee I started using it on cycle I'll never ever go back to the old ways. As far as pct goes, it is suppressive which is counterproductive to what your pct is for so I always advocate against using it on pct.

[davesah1]

hmm.. thats interesting actually. but I mean you should still logically develop a dose dependent tolerance but from you said about it stopping it and mimicking LH, sounds actually good to run during cycle.

[austinite]

Check the sticky threads and educational articles. Tons of info detailed in those threads.

[davesah1]

yes I did hear it was suppressive hence why I run I blast it that 14-20 days before PCT granted a long estered steroid.

[RangerDanger830]

I'm bowing out here, can't keep up with the posts on my phone.