On Cycle Pumps>Weight Used for Size. Care to call BS AAS vets?

[davesah1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTO3k4n98ag
Rich Piana advocating when on gear that higher reps and pumping the muscle until it you almost shit yourself with higher reps yields better size gains than sticking with usually range 10 or so rep range. Personally I incorporate both. Heavier at the start and burnouts at the end.
Any of you ever try both these approaches? personally I am a fan of really pumping arms and delts but back, legs and chest I stick to moderate ranges then burnout at the end.
Any of you guys ever mess with feeder workouts. I used to and it did help with soreness a lot, especially if chest was sore before training triceps or vice versa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjTO2baM9Qo

[davesah1]

but then again look at TOM PLATZ

[base4291ball]

No, I've never used those methods but they sound interesting!

I've always thought if you wanna gain size I start heavy, stay heavy & reps are always between 6 & 10 reps. Never less & never more. Calves are the only exception over 10 reps (15).

That's my personal opinion though & a little Of what I was taught at Iron Den in Pasadena, TX, home of a bunch of pro BB.

24 years old
6'
220 lbs
11.4% bf (as of 5/9/14)

~Base

[michael30]

Ive seen several videos of pros using higher reps!

[lovbyts]

being natural or on juice it's always good to mix things up or you wont continue to grow.

[davesah1]

No, I've never used those methods but they sound interesting!

I've always thought if you wanna gain size I start heavy, stay heavy & reps are always between 6 & 10 reps. Never less & never more. Calves are the only exception over 10 reps (15).

That's my personal opinion though & a little Of what I was taught at Iron Den in Pasadena, TX, home of a bunch of pro BB.

24 years old
6'
220 lbs
11.4% bf (as of 5/9/14)

~Base

Yeah calves, traps, arms, and dets really grew for me with the pump. Its a humbling experience to back off the weight especially when your a big dude shrugging 225, turn some heads there haha. I do however prefer the pump to the plates! But you always go heavier sometimes to "tear down the muscle as Rich says which makes sense. It works out tho bc I noticed while my strength my take a shit halfway through my lifts my muscles never feel quite battered enough I stop there. So going into 12-15 rep range towards the middle to end of my lifts gives me that extra soreness we are like so much ha.

[ghettoboyd]

working with lighter weights and trying to achieve full rom and muscle tearing pump is something foreign to most peeps at any gym I visit...for most its about the weight and ego, peeps do there 10 reps as heavy as possible and wonder why they arnt growing...I sometime ask them if they ever get a pump working out this way and most look at me like ive got 6 heads...if you don't get a crazy painfull pump how are you going to stretch the fascia and force growth?...

[davesah1]

working with lighter weights and trying to achieve full rom and muscle tearing pump is something foreign to most peeps at any gym I visit...for most its about the weight and ego, peeps do there 10 reps as heavy as possible and wonder why they arnt growing...I sometime ask them if they ever get a pump working out this way and most look at me like ive got 6 heads...if you don't get a crazy painfull pump how are you going to stretch the fascia and force growth?...

Exactly! and the mass amount of blood in the muscle has to some tearing of the tissue IMO. That shit burns so nice. But exactly kids love to ego lift and people love to hate on rich but I find that after he left mutant especially, he just a real dude giving real advice.

[base4291ball]

working with lighter weights and trying to achieve full rom and muscle tearing pump is something foreign to most peeps at any gym I visit...for most its about the weight and ego, peeps do there 10 reps as heavy as possible and wonder why they arnt growing...I sometime ask them if they ever get a pump working out this way and most look at me like ive got 6 heads...if you don't get a crazy painfull pump how are you going to stretch the fascia and force growth?...

Couldn't agree more!

I'm not scared to do higher reps and actually the last set of the exercise I do is always to failure. But I usually have the weight heavy enough where failure is usually the 8,9&10 reps of my set. When on cycle I up weight almost weekly for practically every exercise.

Doubt anyone cares about what I do but if you're NOT feeling the pump you obviously need to up reps if staying on that weight.

that's all IMO

~Base

[lovbyts]

working with lighter weights and trying to achieve full rom and muscle tearing pump is something foreign to most peeps at any gym I visit...for most its about the weight and ego, peeps do there 10 reps as heavy as possible and wonder why they arnt growing...I sometime ask them if they ever get a pump working out this way and most look at me like ive got 6 heads...if you don't get a crazy painfull pump how are you going to stretch the fascia and force growth?...

Ive had so many guys at the gym say to me, ask me, why is it I lift a lot heavier than you but you are 2x my size? It's hard to not roll your eyes because you know they wont believe you or they will get upset when you tell them their form sucks, they are resting WAY to long between sets and their diet is not what it should be.

[FONZY007]

Ive had so many guys at the gym say to me, ask me, why is it I lift a lot heavier than you but you are 2x my size? It's hard to not roll your eyes because you know they wont believe you or they will get upset when you tell them their form sucks, they are resting WAY to long between sets and their diet is not what it should be.

I've been told that before and say no I lift wayyy more than you, I just choose not to so I don't get hurt and I continue to grow.. He didn't believe me and I then impressed him with a 315 lbs military press lol

[lovbyts]

I've been told that before and say no I lift wayyy more than you, I just choose not to so I don't get hurt and I continue to grow.. He didn't believe me and I then impressed him with a 315 lbs military press lol

Ha yeah there is that too but when you have some kid who is looking like he is going to throw his back out or having some type of spasm while trying to curl 50 lb dumbbells you just have to shake your head.

I have not tried to max out in a long time. After 2 years since my shoulder surgery it's only now finally getting to where it does not ache even after a light workout.

[Buster Brown]

I dont think there is a magic number so I try to vary things as much as possible. We are all guilty of staying on a certain workout and rep scheme way to long and that is why we get stagnent and dont grow. Hard to break away from exercises that you like to do and are good at. The guy who owns the gym I go to advocates 12 weeks bodybuiding, 12 weeks conditioning, 12 weeks power lifting. His rational is that you dont get stale and keep progressing.

[base4291ball]

I dont think there is a magic number so I try to vary things as much as possible. We are all guilty of staying on a certain workout and rep scheme way to long and that is why we get stagnent and dont grow. Hard to break away from exercises that you like to do and are good at. The guy who owns the gym I go to advocates 12 weeks bodybuiding, 12 weeks conditioning, 12 weeks power lifting. His rational is that you dont get stale and keep progressing.

I've been on the same workouts/exercises for 7 years, haven't changed a thing and the past 3 years straight put on at least 15 pound of muscle per year.

I think staying on the same exercises and workouts are good so you can see how you're progressing from one point in the year or cycle to another.

IMO

~Base

[tdoe11]

If you can get more muscle reaction out of the targeted muscle with lighter weight and higher reps (which needless to say you can) how would it not work better? I have seen almost every former competitor, as well as many current competitors always using the higher reps theory that I know. I go as heavy as possible and always to failure. Sometimes I get 25 reps, sometimes I get 8 reps. Mix it up broseph. Just my two cents because that's what works for me. Good luck

[base4291ball]

If you can get more muscle reaction out of the targeted muscle with lighter weight and higher reps (which needless to say you can) how would it not work better? I have seen almost every former competitor, as well as many current competitors always using the higher reps theory that I know. I go as heavy as possible and always to failure. Sometimes I get 25 reps, sometimes I get 8 reps. Mix it up broseph. Just my two cents because that's what works for me. Good luck

Samezies

~Base

[Getlean007]

No, I've never used those methods but they sound interesting! I've always thought if you wanna gain size I start heavy, stay heavy & reps are always between 6 & 10 reps. Never less & never more. Calves are the only exception over 10 reps (15). That's my personal opinion though & a little Of what I was taught at Iron Den in Pasadena, TX, home of a bunch of pro BB. 24 years old 6' 220 lbs 11.4% bf (as of 5/9/14) ~Base

I like this statement, but I do think op has a valid point. My question is, do the muscle fibers tear more with heavier weight or just more reps?

[base4291ball]

I like this statement, but I do think op has a valid point. My question is, do the muscle fibers tear more with heavier weight or just more reps?

If you want multiple opinions on this id say I'd say a handful of things. Rest time between sets, weight, rep count. I mean it depends, that's my opinion.

What do you other guys think?

I don't think there's a definitive answer for this...

~Base

[< <Samson> >]

I go by what the other juicers I see doing

From what I have seen done by the biggest guys. Which aren't many, maybe about 5 or so. It's like spilt, I can't remember exactly how many do which. Some do super high weight for low rep(maybe like 3-5 range)

Then the opposite - they do low weight but for about 12-16 rep range.


Both look big as fuark



I do both, seems to work for me. But, right now I'm plateauing pretty hard. It's all good though. I'll go for another bulk this winer. But, now I'm thinking one or the other not both.

And yes, you can get a hell of a pump from low rep high weight sets.

[base4291ball]

I go by what the other juicers I see doing From what I have seen done by the biggest guys. Which aren't many, maybe about 5 or so. It's like spilt, I can't remember exactly how many do which. Some do super high weight for low rep(maybe like 3-5 range) Then the opposite - they do low weight but for about 12-16 rep range. Both look big as fuark I do both, seems to work for me. But, right now I'm plateauing pretty hard. It's all good though. I'll go for another bulk this winer. But, now I'm thinking one or the other not both. And yes, you can get a hell of a pump from low rep high weight sets.

Very true, all of the above! Just depends. Has a lot to do with between set rest too. So many factors

~Base

[SEOINAGE]

I go by what the other juicers I see doing

From what I have seen done by the biggest guys. Which aren't many, maybe about 5 or so. It's like spilt, I can't remember exactly how many do which. Some do super high weight for low rep(maybe like 3-5 range)

Then the opposite - they do low weight but for about 12-16 rep range.


Both look big as fuark



I do both, seems to work for me. But, right now I'm plateauing pretty hard. It's all good though. I'll go for another bulk this winer. But, now I'm thinking one or the other not both.

And yes, you can get a hell of a pump from low rep high weight sets.

I don't really agree with everything in these videos. But I have a strong opinion about this. Which is going to build muscle, squatting 225 for 20 reps, or 315 for 20 reps? Obvious answer, and strength training helps you move bigger numbers, and if done right can increase that weights number of reps.

I agree with you doing both. Some things you can do, start a training session with a 3-5 rep max in a big lift, If you get 5 reps, move the weight up next time, only get three the next time, then move reps up the next time. Then do plenty of hypertrophy work, 10 rep range, and even 25 rep range. Even as a powerlifter you need to focus on building muscle, and that may mean lifting more than 3 reps, neural efficiency can only go so far, but without that neural efficiency you are going to miss out on hypertrophy gains, I feel they go hand in hand.

Most of what I watched I call complete bull shit on, and think it is overall garbage. Sure implement partial reps, slow eccentrics and tight contractions, trying to utilize common body building methods is great. But saying he blew up because he starting doing tons of reps,(plus synthol) of course you are going to blow up, I mean how does he atttribute it to just htat and not other changes in his protocol?

[< <Samson> >]

Also a huge forgotten factor is when you see the most extreme guys do a set they do it with the most possible concentration given.


Now, look at the who gives a fvck lifter - just throwing the weight around


Concentration seems to be a huge factor. I know it has to be when I see a guy 30% bigger than me lifting the same weight I am, but just focusing on each set to the extreme.

[tectime]

I like to do both and I seem to get the same post workout pump from either. Big ol swelled up ripping good full pumped. Low reps high weight always shoot for 6 reps or failure. High reps can run up into 20 but normally are 12 with enough weight to hit failure around 4 or 5th set. I tend to feel like I stay swelled up longer on the heavy weights so I tend to go low/heavy for about 4wks throw in 1week light/high.

[tectime]

And you are 100% correct about the concentration/ focus factor. Next to proper form they are the 2 real game changers into either just getting big or looking good as you are doing it. And we all know why we are at the gym as much as we can be. Here kitty kitty kitty !

[SEOINAGE]

And you are 100% correct about the concentration/ focus factor. Next to proper form they are the 2 real game changers into either just getting big or looking good as you are doing it. And we all know why we are at the gym as much as we can be. Here kitty kitty kitty !

Depends on how you define proper form, because you can get serious growth from stopping short of lock out, yet some will say that is improper. Just throwing that out there since what may be text book to some, isn't for another's goals. (not saying this for you, but anyone reading)

[< <Samson> >]

Depends on how you define proper form, because you can get serious growth from stopping short of lock out, yet some will say that is improper. Just throwing that out there since what may be text book to some, isn't for another's goals. (not saying this for you, but anyone reading)

That's def a good point


From experience, I rarely go to locking my joints. It seems way to dangerous over time or with heavy weight


Same exact thing I copy from the gym monsters

[SEOINAGE]

That's def a good point


From experience, I rarely go to locking my joints. It seems way to dangerous over time or with heavy weight


Same exact thing I copy from the gym monsters

Like with low rep and high rep, I do both, depending on what I want to accomplish with a movement. I love partial squats, and I mean partial as in deep but parallel or slightly above, yet I like to cut the top short a lot it is so much easier on my hips and I can work up to some crazy numbers with 5 reps or even higher, but for powerlifting comps I obviously can't do that, so have to train the full motion as well, so I tend to save those for the heavier lifts when I am doing them. But then again I sometimes like to do a complete or even larger range of motion for higher rep ranges, ultimately resulting in more work being done. There is just so many things you can do and ways to do them, depending on your focus, it would be hard to tell someone they are entirely doing something wrong, unless they explained themselves first and then as a whole their protocol just flat out sucked and what they did had no purpose.

[tectime]

Depends on how you define proper form, because you can get serious growth from stopping short of lock out, yet some will say that is improper. Just throwing that out there since what may be text book to some, isn't for another's goals. (not saying this for you, but anyone reading)

I'm with you. Stopping short and locking out is a form I don't consider it what I call proper form but for some I have heard it works. I just never discipled myself to lift on that manner. Not saying it doesn't work, I don't know never tried it. But if you have gotten your desired results from that style then it must work so I'm not one to disagree with another mans ways if he himself is happy. I've never thought of the dangers of it since I never contemplated that method though I can see where you would def. want your ligaments and tendons to be conditioned to that style so again that makes me think that it may help in building up strength. I know it's the pits when you run the juice so high that you are over working your ligaments and tendons with proper form ( it's twisted me up a couple of times going too heavy on bench and curls, blew out a bicep and ripped a delt on same side thanks to our ol buddy tren . But you live and learn you got to be tough if you are going to be dumb) haha, but seriously if it works for you then it is a viable plan of attack. Speaking of myself being dumb not your style !

[SEOINAGE]

Tren is my next compound, don't scare me. I actually don't do a ton of partials as I am usually training for powerlifting, but it can help to keep tension on the muscle from a muscle building perspective, so can be worthwhile to incorporate, but there are times partials can allow heavier weights to be used in a controlled fashion, or even for more reps since less range of motion. I see a good amount of body builders that do different movements how it works for them, and they excel in that movement pattern and duplicate it each time resulting in even greater progress, also felt this myself. It just sucks when you have to relearn a movement since you shift. For instance prepping for a powerlifting meet when I haven't been using a belt, and bringing that back into my training, or correcting form on a bench press, or going from touch and go to pause benches.

I mean eventually one day I might just stop caring about doing the lifts the way they want them if my desires change and I don't care about putting up bigger numbers on the platform, and just want to do what feels good and gets me progress in that regards, as long as you aren't putting your body in a compromised position. Some things can outright cause problems, such as doing a leg press and going too low and letting your hits come off the back pad. Or for me I can't do overhead tricep extensions without jacking up my shoulder anymore, very healthy now 5 years later.

I'm rambling a lot tonight, this diets killing me.

[< <Samson> >]

It's not really the tren itself, but strength jumps


Hey look, I can pick up 40 pounds more than last time. Lets see how many times I can do it

[SEOINAGE]

It's not really the tren itself, but strength jumps


Hey look, I can pick up 40 pounds more than last time. Lets see how many times I can do it

Yeah...

I'll likely still be recomping so decent emphasis on fat loss and keeping calories in check so don't anticipate huge strength jumps, but I could see myself trying to do everything I did before without the cal deficit. In my training I tend to take small incremental jumps between sessions on strength movements, although sometimes I crank out as many reps as I can.

[tectime]

Maybe rambling but on a true course. Right about putting your body in compromising situations. Best avoided. And yes stop shorts do allow for more reps with heavier weights but I like to feel that muscle stretching out to pull or push till full on contraction then pump them alittle and resist all the way back out. I just feel better growth throughout the entire muscle body that way. (Now there's you some visualization making my want to do a couple of sets of curls haha) anyway sounds like your method have worked for you. Very cool Also enjoy the tren monster he can be handled but he can't be controlled. Get ready for some super workout sessions cause they will be coming along with some wicked sides if you don't stay on top of him for the entire ride You can't avoid all the sides of tren but you can minimize the damage so to speak. I've ran it with deca before with some great results but you got to be ready for that double 19 nightmare not for the faint of heart!

[< <Samson> >]

I don't think avoiding all of the sides of tren is not possible, unless you are very conservative with your doses

[Docd187123]

working with lighter weights and trying to achieve full rom and muscle tearing pump is something foreign to most peeps at any gym I visit...for most its about the weight and ego, peeps do there 10 reps as heavy as possible and wonder why they arnt growing...I sometime ask them if they ever get a pump working out this way and most look at me like ive got 6 heads...if you don't get a crazy painfull pump how are you going to stretch the fascia and force growth?...

You grow the same way lifters have grown for decades ow without concerning themselves with the pump. Pump /= growth and isn't even a good indicator of growth. I'm not saying it's worthless as there is some evidence it may indeed help indirectly but to say you need a pump to force growth is not accurate.

[SEOINAGE]

You grow the same way lifters have grown for decades ow without concerning themselves with the pump. Pump /= growth and isn't even a good indicator of growth. I'm not saying it's worthless as there is some evidence it may indeed help indirectly but to say you need a pump to force growth is not accurate.

That is one of those things that always bothered me and would make me stop mid bodybuilder video or interview. The way they talk about the pump for growth.

I also remember the first time 15 years ago someone telling me that the fascia was a limiting factor in how fast you can grow, and will stop you from growing, I was skeptical then, I could see it limiting how fast you can swell up on synthol. K maybe now I should keep my mouth shut cause I could be wrong on a number of levels.

Same person told me I was probably at or close to my genetic potential... I weighed a whopping 145 lbs, needless to say hadn't even realized any true beginner muscle gains etc, it just took modifications to training and then the main component of food.

[lovbyts]

That is one of those things that always bothered me and would make me stop mid bodybuilder video or interview. The way they talk about the pump for growth.

I also remember the first time 15 years ago someone telling me that the fascia was a limiting factor in how fast you can grow, and will stop you from growing, I was skeptical then, I could see it limiting how fast you can swell up on synthol. K maybe now I should keep my mouth shut cause I could be wrong on a number of levels.

Same person told me I was probably at or close to my genetic potential... I weighed a whopping 145 lbs, needless to say hadn't even realized any true beginner muscle gains etc, it just took modifications to training and then the main component of food.

He probably had something that could help you get past your plateau also...
It's amazing how much food you can eat as a teenager that are empty carbs and calories.

[davesah1]

That is one of those things that always bothered me and would make me stop mid bodybuilder video or interview. The way they talk about the pump for growth.

I also remember the first time 15 years ago someone telling me that the fascia was a limiting factor in how fast you can grow, and will stop you from growing, I was skeptical then, I could see it limiting how fast you can swell up on synthol. K maybe now I should keep my mouth shut cause I could be wrong on a number of levels.

Same person told me I was probably at or close to my genetic potential... I weighed a whopping 145 lbs, needless to say hadn't even realized any true beginner muscle gains etc, it just took modifications to training and then the main component of food.

Pump can be a great indirect indicator of growth IMO, for example if your doing bicep curls and you cant do anymore and you have a minimal pump in your bicep something is probably going wrong.... form, ROM, focus, or too much/too little weight. I can get a pump from 6 reps or more provided I do the exercise properly, but high rep training does have its place in my book. I can really focus on my contractions in the 10+ range as oppose to 6-8. The heavier I go the more my mind drifts into getting the weight up because of how fast it becomes heavy. Glad this thread sparked so much input/personal experience.

[Black]

Form, form and more form. I get a pump on my first warmup set after about 10-12 reps with slow contractions. By the 'pump principle', my workout should be done, right?

People get stuck in these "which routines are better" mindset. They read about one and follow it to a "T". Its much more simple than that. You find what style training fits you best and work with that.

The keys are proper/strict form and working the muscle to TRUE failure and making minor changes every so often to continue to shock the body into growth.

In all aspects in life, our bodies are trying to achieve homeostasis. To prevent this, we have to change things up to prevent our body from getting accustomed to the stress.

[Docd187123]

That is one of those things that always bothered me and would make me stop mid bodybuilder video or interview. The way they talk about the pump for growth.

I also remember the first time 15 years ago someone telling me that the fascia was a limiting factor in how fast you can grow, and will stop you from growing, I was skeptical then, I could see it limiting how fast you can swell up on synthol. K maybe now I should keep my mouth shut cause I could be wrong on a number of levels.

Same person told me I was probably at or close to my genetic potential... I weighed a whopping 145 lbs, needless to say hadn't even realized any true beginner muscle gains etc, it just took modifications to training and then the main component of food.

That's why you should rarely listen to those guys lol. They really have no idea what they're talking about most of the time.

[kelkel]

You grow the same way lifters have grown for decades ow without concerning themselves with the pump. Pump /= growth and isn't even a good indicator of growth. I'm not saying it's worthless as there is some evidence it may indeed help indirectly but to say you need a pump to force growth is not accurate.

This ^^^. Guys, push-ups will give you a hell of a pump but how much muscle do you think you'll gain from them?