Tren A/Test C/Winstrol Cycle Started 6/2/14

[tango02]

Ok so I have been dieting down for a while now and have gotten my BF% to 18%(212lbs)...yes I know 15% is the recommended starting point. I know the sides could be worse, I know that my estrogen conversion could be a bit higher than it should be, I know that I run the risk of higher BP and lipids...I get it...I understand the risks of what I am doing. For these reasons this cycle will be kept very mild. I plan to continue to cut while on cycle to lower my BF% further down below 15%. I plan to cut to 10%

Diet is in check, TDEE is 3260, BMR is 2130...currently eating at a 900 calorie deficit with plenty of energy. Macro split is 267p/125c/50f

Cycle will consist of:
Weeks 1-12
250mg Test C 2x/wk
50mg Tren A EOD (may bump this to 75mg depending on sides)
Winstrol 50mg ED
Liquid Stane 12.5mg EOD
Liquid Prami 0.25mg EOD (Before Bed)
HCG 250iu 2x/wk

PCT: 2 weeks after last pin
Nolvadex 40/20/20/20
Clomid 70/35/35/35

[gym_junki]

Glad u know all that. Tren a is short acting it will kick in straight away why are u starting it at the same time as test cyp? Prefer prop and tren to be honest eod. Pct and hcg 250iu e3d looks good. Good luck

[tango02]

Think I should hold off on the Tren until week two? That way the Test C gets enough time to get into my body better?

[BigGuns89]

prop and tren a would be better but nothing to say you cant mix short and long esters if your doing a 12 week cycle, im currently doing test e 500mg e7d and parabolan e3d (ester inbetween tren a and tren e)

good luck with your cycle seems like youve got all the angles covered, like you say 18% bf isnt ideal but your going to do your best to bring that down

[gym_junki]

Yeh better that way or if u have prop just kick start the cycle with it. Once the cyp has kicked in you can inj both tren and cyp together just do .5ml of cyp eod with the tren.

[tango02]

the BF% will continue to come down for sure, There is no way I will ever let it get that high EVER again. Too damn hard to cut back down to 10-12%. Ever had that time in your life when you decide that being fit isn't just going to the gym but a lifestyle change?? Well I had that moment several months back and have stayed the course. I have seen results thus far and will work to keep them coming. This game is 90% mental.

[tango02]

Yeh better that way or if u have prop just kick start the cycle with it. Once the cyp has kicked in you can inj both tren and cyp together just do .5ml of cyp eod with the tren.

This is a good idea! I would prefer to pin the Test and Tren together even if it is EOD instead of E3D on the test. Makes sense...half as much twice as often.

[tango02]

[QUOTE=good luck with your cycle seems like youve got all the angles covered,[/QUOTE]

The only thing I dont have covered is liver support...do you think I should add some in running only 1 oral?

[BigGuns89]

yeah defo run some sort of liver support milk thistle twice daily would be good

as far a natural supps go i use and recommend

liver support twice daily
multi vits and mins morning and night
omega 3 daily
cod liver daily

creatine daily
bcaas before after workout
glutamine before after and before bed

[gym_junki]

I haven't been keeping up mate iv been away for two years but I use to use liv52 don't know if it's still around but do a search something should come up or someone else here might help out.

[tango02]

100th post...

I do take a multivitamin and fish oil every day along with EGCG and chromium. I will be picking up some BCAA today when I reup on my protein powder. Why the creatine?

[BigGuns89]

creatine you can take year round on/off cycle at 5g daily, just buy regular creatine monohydrate as it doesnt matter about brand, it is what it is.

increase strength
increase natty test
good for brain
increase muscle growth
replaces creatine lost through hard training

[tango02]

creatine you can take year round on/off cycle at 5g daily, just buy regular creatine monohydrate as it doesnt matter about brand, it is what it is.

increase strength
increase natty test
good for brain
increase muscle growth
replaces creatine lost through hard training

Interesting...But wouldn't creatine be somewhat counter productive on a cut? It will make me gain weight right? It increases water retention to a small degree right?

[SEOINAGE]

I would take a gram of NAC daily for liver support, some take more.

As for the prop comments, it isn't needed, you can front load the test c, and it will be effectively at upper levels immediately. Prop sucks big time anyways, the pain and discomfort isn't worth it at all over test c. I know people think you need to use long esters together, but tren A is a very good choice, smart one to use just because of the sides. Personally I would drop the winstrol down to 20-30 mg a day, you'll still get great results, and keep this cutting cycle on a more appropriate level. But then again for a cutting cycle 250 mg of test a week is enough, but it looks like you are at 500. Should be fine but my advice would have been to get leaner first, save the AAS for when you can afford to eat in a surplus a bit.

[tango02]

I would take a gram of NAC daily for liver support, some take more.

As for the prop comments, it isn't needed, you can front load the test c, and it will be effectively at upper levels immediately. Prop sucks big time anyways, the pain and discomfort isn't worth it at all over test c. I know people think you need to use long esters together, but tren A is a very good choice, smart one to use just because of the sides. Personally I would drop the winstrol down to 20-30 mg a day, you'll still get great results, and keep this cutting cycle on a more appropriate level. But then again for a cutting cycle 250 mg of test a week is enough, but it looks like you are at 500. Should be fine but my advice would have been to get leaner first, save the AAS for when you can afford to eat in a surplus a bit.

I will add in the NAC with the other daily supplements. What would be the benefit of dropping the win down? Can you please explain what you mean about getting the cutting cycle on a more appropriate level? I am just not sure I follow completely. Thanks again for the info guys as always a great help.

[SEOINAGE]

with a straight fat loss period, higher levels of anabolics aren't needed, it isn't like you are going to be building muscle mass at a 900 cal deficit every day. And the higher levels aren't going to have that big of an impact for fat loss, compared to a lower dose.

[BigGuns89]

Have a look into the benefits of creatine there is lots of info on the net. It's the most researched supp and has a wealth of positives to your body on and off cycle.

I would say 250mg a week is too low and that one positive of aas whilst in a calorie deficit is that it will protect more of your muscle, although without reducing your cals you could increase your cardio that would cut you up for sure so long as your eating clean.

[tango02]

Have a look into the benefits of creatine there is lots of info on the net. It's the most researched supp and has a wealth of positives to your body on and off cycle.

I would say 250mg a week is too low and that one positive of aas whilst in a calorie deficit is that it will protect more of your muscle, although without reducing your cals you could increase your cardio that would cut you up for sure so long as your eating clean.

This cycle is about obtaining more definition on the muscle that I have now. I am a big enough guy as it is now. I am looking for a dry hard physique, I dont have to be the biggest guy in the gym...just the best looking haha.

Weighed 211 this morning, the fat continues to drop. Will be at or below 15% in no time. I plan to up the cardio even tho its going to suck even more while running Tren . All worth it in the end tho.

[tango02]

Ohh and I picked up some creatine last night when I got more protein powder. Also got a bottle of milk thistle, they are dosed at 1000mg per pill. How much thistle should I take per day?

[SEOINAGE]

Have a look into the benefits of creatine there is lots of info on the net. It's the most researched supp and has a wealth of positives to your body on and off cycle.

I would say 250mg a week is too low and that one positive of aas whilst in a calorie deficit is that it will protect more of your muscle, although without reducing your cals you could increase your cardio that would cut you up for sure so long as your eating clean.

I consider myself fairly large muscular already, and I was cutting on trt test, 20mg win, 300 mg npp, and put on a **** ton of muscle, because of how my diet was laid out, thats with 2/3s of my days being under 1k calories too, doing double cardio sessions each day. I could have done with a lot less AAS.

[tango02]

Getting some moderate PIP in my right thigh after my second Test C injection, I pinned 250mg this morning and the tenderness and soreness has increased over the course of the day. I thought I saw a small air bubble in the syringe but nothing too big I didnt think. Could an air bubble cause this pain/soreness?

[SEOINAGE]

Getting some moderate PIP in my right thigh after my second Test C injection, I pinned 250mg this morning and the tenderness and soreness has increased over the course of the day. I thought I saw a small air bubble in the syringe but nothing too big I didnt think. Could an air bubble cause this pain/soreness?

no, little air bubble won't cause problems

[tango02]

At what point do air bubble cause problems? And to what degree can they affect a person?

[tango02]

To answer my own question...

Small amounts of air often get into the blood circulation accidentally during surgery and other medical procedures (for example a bubble entering an intravenous fluid line), but most of these air emboli enter the veins and are stopped at the lungs, and thus a venous air embolism that shows any symptoms is very rare.[1]

For venous air embolisms, death may occur if a large bubble of gas becomes lodged in the heart, stopping blood from flowing from the right ventricle to the lungs (this is similar to vapor lock in engine fuel systems).[2][3] However, experiments in animals [4] show that the amount of gas necessary for this to happen is quite variable. Human case reports suggest that injecting more than 100 mL of air into the venous system at rates greater than 100 mL/s can be fatal.[5] Very large and symptomatic amounts of venous air emboli may also occur in rapid decompression in severe diving or decompression accidents, where they may interfere with circulation in the lungs and result in respiratory distress and hypoxia.[6]

Gas embolism into an artery, termed arterial gas embolism (AGE), is a more serious matter than in a vein, because a gas bubble in an artery may directly stop blood flow to an area fed by the artery. The symptoms of 'AGE' depend on the area of blood flow, and may be those of stroke or heart attack if the brain or heart, respectively, is affected.[6] The amount of arterial gas embolism that causes symptoms depends on location - 2 mL of air in the cerebral circulation can be fatal, while 0.5 mL of air into a coronary artery can cause cardiac arrest

[MuscleInk]

To answer my own question... Small amounts of air often get into the blood circulation accidentally during surgery and other medical procedures (for example a bubble entering an intravenous fluid line), but most of these air emboli enter the veins and are stopped at the lungs, and thus a venous air embolism that shows any symptoms is very rare.[1] For venous air embolisms, death may occur if a large bubble of gas becomes lodged in the heart, stopping blood from flowing from the right ventricle to the lungs (this is similar to vapor lock in engine fuel systems).[2][3] However, experiments in animals [4] show that the amount of gas necessary for this to happen is quite variable. Human case reports suggest that injecting more than 100 mL of air into the venous system at rates greater than 100 mL/s can be fatal.[5] Very large and symptomatic amounts of venous air emboli may also occur in rapid decompression in severe diving or decompression accidents, where they may interfere with circulation in the lungs and result in respiratory distress and hypoxia.[6] Gas embolism into an artery, termed arterial gas embolism (AGE), is a more serious matter than in a vein, because a gas bubble in an artery may directly stop blood flow to an area fed by the artery. The symptoms of 'AGE' depend on the area of blood flow, and may be those of stroke or heart attack if the brain or heart, respectively, is affected.[6] The amount of arterial gas embolism that causes symptoms depends on location - 2 mL of air in the cerebral circulation can be fatal, while 0.5 mL of air into a coronary artery can cause cardiac arrest

Yes been discussed ad nauseum on here and I've posted responses to this question many times. Concerns arise between 100-300ml of an air emboli.

Smaller bubbles are common and nothing to be alarmed about.

[SEOINAGE]

and remember if you aspirated and no blood more than likely you are injecting into muscle, usually I will purposely put some air in my syringe and as you inject it usually comes right back out the hole around the needle, at least that is what it sounds like.

[tango02]

So I had some pretty serious PIP last night after the TEST C injection yesterday morning. Had a lump just below the injection site along with a good deal of pain and tenderness around the site. Had some redness to go along with the pain and tenderness but not at the injection site but just below it.

I slept with a heating pad on it all night last night and took 800mg of Ibuprofen along with 1000mg of cephalexin just to be on the safe side and this morning it seems to have subsided for the most part. Just slightly tender but still also a bit of redness in the same spot as last night.

[tango02]

So I have to just go on record and say that I FVCKING HATE liquid prami....this shit makes me feel horrible. Even at .25mg it makes me feel nauseated to the point that I cant eat. I normally take it at bed but forgot to take it yesterday so I took it before work this morning. Makes me feel like a zombie....its awful.

[tango02]

Ok so I got home from work today, leg was feeling just fine. Pain and soreness went away but I found this when I looked at my thigh. What could cause this? And why wouldnt it hurt? Seems logical that if this was present on your leg it would come with a great deal of pain...

[MuscleInk]

So I have to just go on record and say that I FVCKING HATE liquid prami....this shit makes me feel horrible. Even at .25mg it makes me feel nauseated to the point that I cant eat. I normally take it at bed but forgot to take it yesterday so I took it before work this morning. Makes me feel like a zombie....its awful.

Yep. It's terrible although some people prefer it over cabergoline.

[MuscleInk]

Ok so I got home from work today, leg was feeling just fine. Pain and soreness went away but I found this when I looked at my thigh. What could cause this? And why wouldnt it hurt? Seems logical that if this was present on your leg it would come with a great deal of pain... <img src="http://forums.steroid.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151100"/>

What exactly are we looking at here? Lighting makes it a bit hard to assess. I'm seeing the erythema. How far from the injections site is this? Any of the affected region becoming hard? Any change in the range of motion?

How long has it been like this? How much gear and what was the concentration? Other than the redness, are you asymptomatic?

[tango02]

What exactly are we looking at here? Lighting makes it a bit hard to assess. I'm seeing the erythema. How far from the injections site is this? Any of the affected region becoming hard? Any change in the range of motion?

How long has it been like this? How much gear and what was the concentration? Other than the redness, are you asymptomatic?

This is my right thigh, the discoloration is directly next to the injection site. There is a slight hardness near the middle, but only slightly tender to the touch. And yes I would say asymptomatic with the exception of a very slight itch from time to time around the erythema.

Gear used was 1cc Test C at 250mg and 250iu HCG . Both were in the same syringe.

I noticed a very small red spot this morning about the size of a quarter. Now (9 hours later) it is the size of a softball and is moving down toward my knee away from the injection site.

[tango02]

One other thing to note is that this does not happen when I pin the Tren A. Pinned 75mg this morning with no PIP, erythema, soreness...nothing at all.

[MuscleInk]

This is my right thigh, the discoloration is directly next to the injection site. There is a slight hardness near the middle, but only slightly tender to the touch. And yes I would say asymptomatic with the exception of a very slight itch from time to time around the erythema. Gear used was 1cc Test C at 250mg and 250iu HCG. Both were in the same syringe. I noticed a very small red spot this morning about the size of a quarter. Now (9 hours later) it is the size of a softball and is moving down toward my knee away from the injection site.

I've treated strep and staph infections with similar clinical presentations. I often treat these with bactrim or clindamycin although the latter is harsh for some people.

Your definitely reacting to something that was transferred from the surface of the skin or in the syringe. Anabolics, having an immunosuppressive effect increase wound healing time and it's the main reason infections happen so easily. If I was treating you in clinic, I'd be running labs (CBC and CMP) and likely getting you on bactrim if it's continuing to track or if you become symptomatic for infection.

[BigGuns89]

Try warming the oil up before you inject to help with pip. It does sound like you may have an infection or something though or that the oil hasn't gone into the muscle properly.

With the milk thistle take it once or twice daily, I've just got some liv 52 which I don't think has milk thistle in it but some other stuff meant to help with the liver, appetite and growth. I got it because the gym sold it but might just get milk thistle next time although it probably doesn't matter.

Drop the prami till after 4 weeks in or if u notice any sides, maybe try caber. Letro can have a reducing effect on progesterone related sides as well as oestrogen but you might find arimadex to be enough to control the oestrogen from test and not need prami or caber at all, everyone's different.

[tango02]

I've treated strep and staph infections with similar clinical presentations. I often treat these with bactrim or clindamycin although the latter is harsh for some people.

Your definitely reacting to something that was transferred from the surface of the skin or in the syringe. Anabolics, having an immunosuppressive effect increase wound healing time and it's the main reason infections happen so easily. If I was treating you in clinic, I'd be running labs (CBC and CMP) and likely getting you on bactrim if it's continuing to track or if you become symptomatic for infection.

so should I continue with the antibiotic that I have here just to be safe?

[tango02]

Try warming the oil up before you inject to help with pip. It does sound like you may have an infection or something though or that the oil hasn't gone into the muscle properly.

With the milk thistle take it once or twice daily, I've just got some liv 52 which I don't think has milk thistle in it but some other stuff meant to help with the liver, appetite and growth. I got it because the gym sold it but might just get milk thistle next time although it probably doesn't matter.

Drop the prami till after 4 weeks in or if u notice any sides, maybe try caber. Letro can have a reducing effect on progesterone related sides as well as oestrogen but you might find arimadex to be enough to control the oestrogen from test and not need prami or caber at all, everyone's different.

The caber has the same kind of sides as prami?

[MuscleInk]

so should I continue with the antibiotic that I have here just to be safe?

Which one are you using? How old is the script?

[MuscleInk]

Try warming the oil up before you inject to help with pip. It does sound like you may have an infection or something though or that the oil hasn't gone into the muscle properly. With the milk thistle take it once or twice daily, I've just got some liv 52 which I don't think has milk thistle in it but some other stuff meant to help with the liver, appetite and growth. I got it because the gym sold it but might just get milk thistle next time although it probably doesn't matter. Drop the prami till after 4 weeks in or if u notice any sides, maybe try caber. Letro can have a reducing effect on progesterone related sides as well as oestrogen but you might find arimadex to be enough to control the oestrogen from test and not need prami or caber at all, everyone's different.

NAC is superior to Silymarian and one of the active ingredients in Liv52 was recently removed.

[tango02]

Which one are you using? How old is the script?

cephalexin, 500mg....very recent script