20 years old first cycle - on TRT since 17 - New On Forum

Hi everybody,

I just joined here recently.

My story is that at 17 I have been diagnosed with kleinefelder syndrome which means that I am born infertile, and I had extremely low T level at 17 I was at 280ng/dl. I was depressed, no sex drive, no erections. I was extremely motivated and I wanted to one day compete, but no matter how perfect my diet and training was my results were the same than that of what a girl would get.

Mid 17 I started TRT, I chose the gel and I put 40mg of cream everyday. I started with 10 then 20 and now im at 40mg after over 2 years of TRT. My doctor said this is for life and my own production is now dead anyways. Now my levels are in the 800ng/dl range and I feel pretty damn good.

Second part of the story is that the syndrome gave me wide hips, like that of woman, well almost. And I am getting more and more depressed because of it. For those of you who do not know what it feels like please to not hate comment me. I don't find it amusing at all.

So here I am, I want to run a cycle to gain muscle to cover up my deformities and I'm not willing to wait 20 years to make it happen naturally.

So I have a few questions:

When I run my cycle, will I need PCT?

If not, when I am finished, do I slowly go back to injecting (not using the cream anymore) the doses to get back to my usual T levels?

This is the cycle I am planning on running:

Testosterone Enathate (test e) and dianabol (dbol)

weeks 1-6-250mg test E every 4th day
weeks 1-3 - 20mg dbol, weeks 4-6 - 40mg dbol
weeks 7-12 500mg test E every 4th day

for anti estrogen:

Weeks 1-6 - 25mg aromasin every other day
weeks 7-12 25mg aromasin every day

Accutane in case I get acne, and I know I will because I already ran 2 months of 60mg accutane because of severe acne (my back is clean now)

My father is 45 and still has all his hair, his father is 72 and is partly bald, my moms side dad has full hair at 70. So I don't think I'm too prone for baldness. If there is anything I can use that you recommend, please share.

What are your thoughts experienced users? Please no comments like "you are too young" I suffered enough. And I want to make myself happy.

Thank you

Run test at one dose all the way through, 500 mg per week for 12. Run dbol for no more then 4 weeks. That much aromasin will most likely crush estro, I run aromasin 12.5 x2 per week, start there and adjust doses if need.
Edit: you will not need pct as you are on trt , just drop back down to your trt dose when you are done with your 12 weeks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Benbolone

Run test at one dose all the way through, 500 mg per week for 12. Run dbol for no more then 4 weeks. That much aromasin will most likely crush estro, I run aromasin 12.5 x2 per week, start there and adjust doses if need.
Edit: you will not need pct as you are on trt , just drop back down to your trt dose when you are done with your 12 weeks

---

Arom....should be run ed or eod. Adex is run 2x a week.

12.5 should be a good ed dose to start with. But monitor throughout. R u even taking an AI while on your trt anyways?

Also what about hcg?

And even thoigh u are trt already (sorry to hear about ur condition btw) still think u should hold off for a few years on this cycle. Your trt alone should show u some good gains with a proper diet and training.

^^^ I agreee with that. Good luck av666.

Hi guys, thanks for the answers.

I only take Testosterone cream. Nothing else. It was recommended to me to take aromasin daily when on 500mg. But you guys seem to think otherwise. I don't know how that works. Is it dangerous if too much is taken?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by av666

Hi everybody,

I just joined here recently.

My story is that at 17 I have been diagnosed with kleinefelder syndrome which means that I am born infertile, and I had extremely low T level at 17 I was at 280ng/dl. I was depressed, no sex drive, no erections. I was extremely motivated and I wanted to one day compete, but no matter how perfect my diet and training was my results were the same than that of what a girl would get.

Mid 17 I started TRT, I chose the gel and I put 40mg of cream everyday. I started with 10 then 20 and now im at 40mg after over 2 years of TRT. My doctor said this is for life and my own production is now dead anyways. Now my levels are in the 800ng/dl range and I feel pretty damn good.

Second part of the story is that the syndrome gave me wide hips, like that of woman, well almost. And I am getting more and more depressed because of it. For those of you who do not know what it feels like please to not hate comment me. I don't find it amusing at all.

So here I am, I want to run a cycle to gain muscle to cover up my deformities and I'm not willing to wait 20 years to make it happen naturally.

So I have a few questions:

When I run my cycle, will I need PCT?

NO

If not, when I am finished, do I slowly go back to injecting (not using the cream anymore) the doses to get back to my usual T levels?

Your TrT routine Your Life. I am in your boat with Primary Hypogonadal. I prefer the shots due to not dangerous to others and the dose is the dose..not dependant on 20 items of absorption. 100 a week test E should put you in the 800-1000 range. Split it up into twice a week shots if you go that path.

This is the cycle I am planning on running:

Testosterone Enathate (test e) and dianabol (dbol)

weeks 1-6-250mg test E every 4th day
weeks 1-3 - 20mg dbol, weeks 4-6 - 40mg dbol
weeks 7-12 500mg test E every 4th day

250 won't do much for you plus you want to go high at the start on a long ester like Test E. 500 7-12 is what they advise on here. Dbol same dose over the 6 weeks.

for anti estrogen:

Weeks 1-6 - 25mg aromasin every other day
weeks 7-12 25mg aromasin every day

I personally need 25 a day on 175 test P and puts me mid range or lower. Results vary. Labs and personal experience rule aromasin due to it is a weak AI.

Accutane in case I get acne, and I know I will because I already ran 2 months of 60mg accutane because of severe acne (my back is clean now)

My father is 45 and still has all his hair, his father is 72 and is partly bald, my moms side dad has full hair at 70. So I don't think I'm too prone for baldness. If there is anything I can use that you recommend, please share.

What are your thoughts experienced users? Please no comments like "you are too young" I suffered enough. And I want to make myself happy.

Thank you

---

For my thoughts. You do not have to worry about PCT so sky is the limit. Read up on the different substances and learn what they do. 19 nors are the rage now (Deca/NNP and Tren). Check out Anavar also because it has some really desirable effects. I personally found the test only cycle to be wrong for me due to estrogen conversion and the stronger AI (Adex) not liking me (nauseous and faint). I designed my own routine from research which is what you can do. You are only going to get "anything but test first two cycles is wrong because you are killing kittens" type of responses.

Good luck and enjoy your path!

I was also wondering, should I tell my TRT doctor about using steroids?

I've talked to him about it once just out of curiosity and he is really against bodybuilders, called them monsters and stupid people. So I'm not sure how to approach this with him. Also should I get blood work done every week?

I will also be taking accutane and as you guys know its hard on the liver.

What should I do?

Look at my log bro. You can read exactly how your cycle should be executed without the dbol added.. But you can infer. Just add dbol ED to what I would be taking. Only take dbol for a max of 4 weeks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by av666

I was also wondering, should I tell my TRT doctor about using steroids?

I've talked to him about it once just out of curiosity and he is really against bodybuilders, called them monsters and stupid people. So I'm not sure how to approach this with him. Also should I get blood work done every week?

I will also be taking accutane and as you guys know its hard on the liver.

What should I do?

---

I wouldn't tell your doctor he already made it clear his views. He probably doesn't want to be seen as a doctor aiding steroid abusers, I can understand why he would feel that way in a professional sense.

I would personally leave out the oral for now, get a feel for the test and its sides. Then at 8 weeks get some bloodwork and if you feel that everything is going smooth and bloodwork/blood pressure/other sides are under control add in the dbol for the last 4 weeks. Using this method you will learn alot more about your bodies response to the compounds and then be able to use that info next time.

As a side note, your on TRT I don't know how often you get bloods ect for this but you may not want to use test on top of trt because your test levels will be thru the roof. You could use other anabolics which will not show as test and you can avoid having to explain to trt doctor.

I also would wait until you have a acne flare up to use any accutane. You may not and there is no reason to unnecessarily expose your body to such a harsh compound.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by av666

I was also wondering, should I tell my TRT doctor about using steroids? I've talked to him about it once just out of curiosity and he is really against bodybuilders, called them monsters and stupid people. So I'm not sure how to approach this with him. Also should I get blood work done every week? I will also be taking accutane and as you guys know its hard on the liver. What should I do?

---

Get a different doctor. I enjoy telling these types of people to go 'f**k themselves. You should have no problem being completely honest and open with your dr and not getting judged. Your Dr's role is keeping you healthy, not making judgements. Change dr ASAP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jesse4466

Get a different doctor. I enjoy telling these types of people to go 'f**k themselves. You should have no problem being completely honest and open with your dr and not getting judged. Your Dr's role is keeping you healthy, not making judgements. Change dr ASAP.

---

I would be cautious about admitting to any physician use of anabolic steroids. In many countries these are illegal and if your doctor records your use, it may result in the denial of your insurance (depending on the country you reside and the insurance programs). Your medical record follows you around to every new physician so any report of steroid use may restrict your access to coverage by insurers.

I would be careful about how cavalier you about telling a physician to go fvck himself/herself. Denial of insurance authorization will be unpleasant when you need medical care.

I would not say ANYTHING to a doctor about and non RX medications like steroids. But due to your kleinefelder syndrome I would talk to your doctor about both HCG and Test shots other than the gel. You can always say something about kids being around and / or women you come in contact with . . . or if in the US the commercials from bad lawyers. HCG is indicated for Hypogonadalism, ask him to read up on it or look at the PI for that drug. It is NOT a weight loss drug like many woman think it is. . . and Dr. Oz. You also might want to talk to your doctor about your depression if you have no already. Dont listen to anyone that tells you to get a new doctor and tell them everything. If it is not RX by a doctor than MuscleInc is 100% right. No need to get into trouble or cause yourself more stress and a new set of issues.

Take this journey of anabolic steroids very slow. There are a number of very knowledgeable member on here and some are doctors and medical professionals. Read everything you can on this site. From your diet to lifting and also AAS. You might want to look around the internet and see if there is a kleinefelder syndrome group fourm and you might find some people on there that have lived with what you are going through for many years and what they have done as it relates to training and / or possible AAS use.

I hope this helps and I wish you luck. Stick around and learn all you can. Welcome to the board!

Hold on mates,

Before we go on with this, we know very little about OP's stats, how long he's been lifting, weight, height, bf%, knowledge of nutrition, that sort of thing....


so, AV, what are your stats?

Please respond,

---Roman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

I would be cautious about admitting to any physician use of anabolic steroids. In many countries these are illegal and if your doctor records your use, it may result in the denial of your insurance (depending on the country you reside and the insurance programs). Your medical record follows you around to every new physician so any report of steroid use may restrict your access to coverage by insurers. I would be careful about how cavalier you about telling a physician to go fvck himself/herself. Denial of insurance authorization will be unpleasant when you need medical care.

---

I would estimate that most Dr's would be more suspicious with someone lying to them / not disclosing info then those who choose to be honest. I would choose to pick a Dr wisely and be honest. I'm more concerned with getting full and accurate medical treatment rather then hiding information that may end up hurting me more in the long run. Every dr has a different personality and beliefs, just find one who is understanding. many people are alcoholics and drug addicts and they still go to the dr and have insurance. In order to get proper care they have to be honest about their condition. For me I have nothing to hid or be ashamed of and I'm confident my insurance will go no where as long as i pay for it. Taking steroids is a walk in the park compared to telling a dr your a heroin addict for example. But it's the drs job to treat you and the insurance provider to provide insurance. I have zero fears about being honest.

But that is me- and only me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jesse4466

I would estimate that most Dr's would be more suspicious with someone lying to them / not disclosing info then those who choose to be honest. I would choose to pick a Dr wisely and be honest. I'm more concerned with getting full and accurate medical treatment rather then hiding information that may end up hurting me more in the long run. Every dr has a different personality and beliefs, just find one who is understanding. many people are alcoholics and drug addicts and they still go to the dr and have insurance. In order to get proper care they have to be honest about their condition. For me I have nothing to hid or be ashamed of and I'm confident my insurance will go no where as long as i pay for it. Taking steroids is a walk in the park compared to telling a dr your a heroin addict for example. But it's the drs job to treat you and the insurance provider to provide insurance. I have zero fears about being honest.

---

You know there are doctors that have posted on this post. No matter what the doctors to personal beliefs are they are required by law to put that information into your medical file if you tell them that to protect their own medical licenses. They might be suspicious that you are on AAS but never tell them. Doctor will treat you but maybe not in the way you want them to, but within their medical license guidelines. Do you not think that there are a ton of lawyers that would love to sue a doctor that has a successful practice and has malpractice insurance?

IMO from what I have seen in the medical world a doctor would fire you as a patient and refer you to a doctor / specialist that deals with addiction. Then your screwed. Any insurance company can drop you for cause. So if you were to tell one doctor so bugger off and try to find a doctor that deals with AAS and then you say you do tren, they will tell you to bugger off as well.

It is not the doctors job to treat anyone for being stupid. Any doctor will cover their own interest first and only work in their scope of practice. General example, if you are having a heart attack at your PCP, they provide care until the ambulance shows up and sends you to a hospital. They don't treat heart attacks, they would stabilize you and send you off to a specialist. Is it the insurance companies job to provide insurance for people that are to high of a risk to insure for doing illegal drugs. Be smart and keep your personal stuff to yourself like AAS use.

You stated " I have zero fears about being honest" then just wait until you see government health care in action. Same rule applies to talking to police. People go to prison for being honest and can be 100% innocent and still go to jail. Its just not smart to ever talk to the police or share to much of your business with anyone.

As I said- that's just me. I don't get caught up in the conspiracy of it. Dr's are required to be fully confidential with their patients, that is the law. To think that being honest about my medical information with my dr is the equivalent to speaking to the police is in my opinion, ridiculous. Employers will never know my medical information, neither will anyone else to be concerned about. The only one getting fired is the dr if any medical info is ever leaked- Fact. I'm not paranoid nor should I ever have to be. Additionally, you do realize HGH and Test have medical clinics now. And steroids are prescribed legally in many instances. But again, to each is own. I don't have the time or patience for fear or paranoia in this matter. It's really not even a big deal unless it is made one by lying- That's my opinion only.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jesse4466

As I said- that's just me. I don't get caught up in the conspiracy of it. Dr's are required to be fully confidential with their patients, that is the law. To think that being honest about my medical information with my dr is the equivalent to speaking to the police is in my opinion, ridiculous. Employers will never know my medical information, neither will anyone else to be concerned about. The only one getting fired is the dr if any medical info is ever leaked- Fact. I'm not paranoid nor should I ever have to be. Additionally, you do realize HGH and Test have medical clinics now. And steroids are prescribed legally in many instances. But again, to each is own. I don't have the time or patience for fear or paranoia in this matter. It's really not even a big deal unless it is made one by lying- That's my opinion only.

---

lol...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jesse4466

I would estimate that most Dr's would be more suspicious with someone lying to them / not disclosing info then those who choose to be honest. I would choose to pick a Dr wisely and be honest. I'm more concerned with getting full and accurate medical treatment rather then hiding information that may end up hurting me more in the long run. Every dr has a different personality and beliefs, just find one who is understanding. many people are alcoholics and drug addicts and they still go to the dr and have insurance. In order to get proper care they have to be honest about their condition. For me I have nothing to hid or be ashamed of and I'm confident my insurance will go no where as long as i pay for it. Taking steroids is a walk in the park compared to telling a dr your a heroin addict for example. But it's the drs job to treat you and the insurance provider to provide insurance. I have zero fears about being honest.

---

Well maybe that is because you are only 33. As you get older, more mature you will start to see more and more changes to your medical, insurance and doctors and maybe not be so confident about having zero fears. I use to sort of think the same but the changes I have seen over the last 20+ years tell me it's that's it's not a good idea to give to much information sometimes especially admitting to doing anything illegal or questionable.

You might be surprised what your insurance company knows, regulates and shares with your employer and how it could effect your current and future employment. You will find most of us who are a little older feel pretty much the same way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Well maybe that is because you are only 33. As you get older, more mature you will start to see more and more changes to your medical, insurance and doctors and maybe not be so confident about having zero fears. I use to sort of think the same but the changes I have seen over the last 20+ years tell me it's that's it's not a good idea to give to much information sometimes especially admitting to doing anything illegal or questionable.

You might be surprised what your insurance company knows, regulates and shares with your employer and how it could effect your current and future employment. You will find most of us who are a little older feel pretty much the same way.

---

Like I said, cavalier and naive. Some docs will extend a patient some degree of latitude provide the patient isn't harming himself/herself. Other docs are vehemently opposed to anabolic use. If his use ends up in his medical file and Healthcare is restricted one day, he'll think differently.

To each is there own. It's a personal decision. But the older I get the more open I'll be, not the opposite.

Hi Roman,

I started at 15 y/o where I was already 6ft2.5 (190cm) I was around 128lbs. I didn't know that back then I had super low testosterone. I couldn't even do 1 push up... by 17.5 when I realized something was wrong (small balls) I was around 155 (up to this moment I was training like a monster eating in the 300g of protein a day and getting minimal results, depressing :( ). Then my TRT started and I noticed bigger improvements. It is only about 8 months ago that I started to see the real improvements because my testosterone was finally where it should have been. I was tested recently I'm around 800ng/dl.

So right now I'm 180, bf 11-12% (Was measured 2 months ago at 13%, abs are visible even with creatine. Nutrition is beyond perfect. That I know for a fact :)

I know I'm only 180 atm but I have tiny bones since I never actually had puberty. I look alright, but I want to be a monster. Ever since I was 13 I wanted to be huge and compete.

I don't have PR's for my lifts.

I squat 4 x 8 with 230

Deadlift 4 x 6 with 308

Bench press no comments lol

Thank you everyone for your advice! I live in Denmark and steroids are very illegal here indeed. However a very large percentage use them its no secret, almost like social drinking.

And for social security we have it free.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jesse4466

To each is there own. It's a personal decision. But the older I get the more open I'll be, not the opposite.

---

Good luck with all that.

People why am I unable to send private messages?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jesse4466

Get a different doctor. I enjoy telling these types of people to go 'f**k themselves. You should have no problem being completely honest and open with your dr and not getting judged. Your Dr's role is keeping you healthy, not making judgements. Change dr ASAP.

---

Just out of curiosity, how many Drs. have you told "to go f**k themselves"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Like I said, cavalier and naive. Some docs will extend a patient some degree of latitude provide the patient isn't harming himself/herself. Other docs are vehemently opposed to anabolic use. If his use ends up in his medical file and Healthcare is restricted one day, he'll think differently.

---

In addition to the insurance issues there are other side affects to being "honest" or oversharing with your Dr.
Example: I got stabbed a couple of times in the mid 90's and one of the knives went thru my hand severing my Ulna artery and Ulna nerve.
After I was released from ER in San Diego. I was admitted to LA County for surgery.
In the admission process, while the Dr. was doing initial check up etc. he asked the standard questions like "do you do drugs, do you smoke, do you drink alcohol" I said "yes". He asked how much? I said "6-8 beers a day, I smoke tobacco, weed and occasional other recreational drugs." I thought this was the correct thing to say since I was going under anesthesia.
He was shocked and seemed to think and said "that was very excessive". Funny because I played it down thinking that was a moderate number...
Anyways, once I was admitted and got up to my room (more like a dorm) The Dr. came in and told me they were going to add to my IV a drug that would basically keep me in a vegetative state until the surgeries. I asked why and he said that someone with my kind of alcohol & drug abuse would go thru withdrawals and could become hostile and aggressive and a danger to others.
I laughed and told him that he was crazy and refused the drugs based on my patient rights.
He then ordered me to be moved to a bed with restraints and told the nurses of the ward if I even started to look agitated to call security and have me restrained.
I was fine and no further issues. But to this day that admission of drugs & alcohol "abuse" stays in my files and it takes a act of God to get anything other than Tylenol #3 or Ibuprofen prescribed for pain.
I have had several major surgeries, neck & back injuries and always the same - no narcotics prescribed.
They always say " you will be fine with Ibuprofen 800 or Tylenol #3."
On the other hand, my wife (no drugs or alcohol) goes to see the Dr. and says she stubbed her toe and BAM!! Prescription for Norco or some other hardcore pain killer...
So lesson learned, Don't tell anything unless you think it is information that could be life threating to omit because your medical records are not confidential to other Dr.'s and/or insurance Co.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicko

In addition to the insurance issues there are other side affects to being "honest" or oversharing with your Dr.
Example: I got stabbed a couple of times in the mid 90's and one of the knives went thru my hand severing my Ulna artery and Ulna nerve.
After I was released from ER in San Diego. I was admitted to LA County for surgery.
In the admission process, while the Dr. was doing initial check up etc. he asked the standard questions like "do you do drugs, do you smoke, do you drink alcohol" I said "yes". He asked how much? I said "6-8 beers a day, I smoke tobacco, weed and occasional other recreational drugs." I thought this was the correct thing to say since I was going under anesthesia.
He was shocked and seemed to think and said "that was very excessive". Funny because I played it down thinking that was a moderate number...
Anyways, once I was admitted and got up to my room (more like a dorm) The Dr. came in and told me they were going to add to my IV a drug that would basically keep me in a vegetative state until the surgeries. I asked why and he said that someone with my kind of alcohol & drug abuse would go thru withdrawals and could become hostile and aggressive and a danger to others.
I laughed and told him that he was crazy and refused the drugs based on my patient rights.
He then ordered me to be moved to a bed with restraints and told the nurses of the ward if I even started to look agitated to call security and have me restrained.
I was fine and no further issues. But to this day that admission of drugs & alcohol "abuse" stays in my files and it takes a act of God to get anything other than Tylenol #3 or Ibuprofen prescribed for pain.
I have had several major surgeries, neck & back injuries and always the same - no narcotics prescribed.
They always say " you will be fine with Ibuprofen 800 or Tylenol #3."
On the other hand, my wife (no drugs or alcohol) goes to see the Dr. and says she stubbed her toe and BAM!! Prescription for Norco or some other hardcore pain killer...
So lesson learned, Don't tell anything unless you think it is information that could be life threating to omit because your medical records are not confidential to other Dr.'s and/or insurance Co.

---

No argument from me. His earlier comments, particularly the "go fvck yourself doc", are unfortunately typical with some youth these days who feel a sense of entitlement and that hard work, discipline, and delayed gratification are beyond them. He'll learn the hard way. Life will one day humble him and adjust his attitude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rusty11

Just out of curiosity, how many Drs. have you told "to go f**k themselves"?

---

When I lived in NYC, two. My perception of drs is probably different from most. I see many as money whores working with drug companies. To me it's all a business. There is no morals or ethics involved from my eyes.

When you see dr's writing prescriptions for OxyContin, Xanax,morphine, to handfuls of your friends who don't need it, then some of those friends die, you start having a different view of "Doctor" in your head. I'm very humble. But walk in my shoes and you'll see why I have no problem telling a dr to go **** himself. To many Dr's it's just a $ game. Nothing more.

Few other important factors - I work for myself, so I have no employer to be concerned with. and I live in an area where ever 2 miles is a HGH or TRT clinic. So the culture I live in is dominate in this field. As I said, this is me and me only. I believe I mentioned that already a few times and I'll mention that again. I speak for myself only when I say I speak openly about my test and HGH use with doctors.

I think the irony is funny tho when drs even tell you they use HGH and test. That's when you know it's really not even a big deal.

So this has gone from a 20 year old thinking he needs to be on TRT to a discussions on the ethics of AAS and telling Medical Doctors to go toss off?

I vote to close the thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kelkel

Good luck with all that.

---

agree. I don't trust my doc. not entirely. when you make off hand comments, guess what? it becomes a part of your permenant medical record. I one time made a comment that I worked for a very stressful Japanese company, and found my self drinking to cope. now my permenant medical record says "uses alcohol to excess to compensate for stress management."

It's on the Kaiser website under my account, for ANY Kaiser doctor to see, including admin staff if they are so inclined. with my private records so readily available to so many people, I'm sorry, I'm just a little uncomfortable with all that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigTahl

So this has gone from a 20 year old thinking he needs to be on TRT to a discussions on the ethics of AAS and telling Medical Doctors to go toss off?

---

Hey I am not thinking about anything. I am on TRT since the age of 17...