Clomid; The TRT/Test Boosting Solution?

[jimmyinkedup]

It has long been known that clomid is very effective in males at stimulating the production of testosterone . It belongs to a category of compounds known as SERMS, or Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators. Serms (and clomid) work by attaching selectively to certain estrogen receptors which then triggers a physiological response. The specific estrogen receptors that clomid attaches to which trigger the production of testosterone are located on the pituitary gland. This blocks estrogen from reaching these receptors. The body (more specifically the pituitary) perceives this as low estrogen levels. In an effort to increase estrogen the pituitary then produces more luteinizing hormone. This luteinizing hormone stimulates the leydig cells in the testis to produce more testosterone. That however is only half the picture with clomid. In addition clomid attaches to receptors on the hypothalamus, which causes it to produce GnRh which results in LH and FSH release. More on that later.

Clomid has long been of use in these circles as either standalone PCT or more recently alongside of tamoxifen for PCT. Clomid differs slightly from other serms in that while all serms possess estrogen agonist and antagonist activity, clomid seemingly exerts some estrogen agonist activity more so than other serms. While this may seem counterproductive, it is in fact, why many see it as the most important part of a pct regiment. Estrogen agonist activity is not bad, if it is exerted in more desirable receptor areas and this would appear to be the case with clomid.
The other interesting thing about clomid is its effect on make fertility. While most serms exert a pronounced effect on Leutenizing hormone (LH), they do not impact follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) as much. FSH has a direct effect on spermatogenesis (sperm production). Clomid does in fact seem to exert a rather pronounced effect on both LH and FSH, thus making it an effective male fertility drug.

Virtually all uses of clomid in males would be considered “off label” uses. These are known effects of the drug that have no directly been cleared by the FDA for its use in treatment. So while clomid may in fact be prescribed to males, any prescription would be considered an off label use of the drug.

The purpose of this write up is to explore the possibility of clomid as a potential trt or even test boosting option. In our circles and even in trt circles it has long been known that clomid can be very effective at increasing low testosterone levels significantly. It has also been echoed that there can be some undesired effects of the drug as well, most noted are mood swings and emotional response. It is said that clomid can make one irritable and emotional and not at ease. This has long been echoed regarding clomid but it really was word of mouth. My main concern about this is often it is used in PCT, a time of hormonal upheaval that may very well leave one this way whether clomid is used or not. Recently there have been several studies on clomid done on hypogonadal men which focused on not only testosterone levels but emotional and quality of life concerns. The results of these studies have proven more than interesting.

The first study published in 2012 by the Brazilian Journal of Endocrinology focused on males with T levels below 300ng/dl. The interesting thing is in addition to T levels alone the study focused on cholesterol profile, sexual desire and performance as well as quality of life. Again it has long been known that clomid is effective at raising T levels, the thing that is interesting to me is the study focused on 3 areas that are considered major “downfalls” if you will by many whenever the topic of clomid for trt therapy is brought up. The results were more than interesting. At a dose of 25mg/day given dily for anywhere from 3-6 months the average T levels were nearly doubled. There was no significant adverse effect on cholesterol levels. There was a reported increase in sexual desire and activity and virtually across the board an increase in quality of life. Now 25mgs it a relatively low dose of clomid, yet as is noted a very effective dose of clomid. This study goes against much of the hearsay regarding clomid for this purpose, but it is only one study. Which brings us to the next study.

The second study was conducted on young hypogonadal males, 86 in total. The average age was 25, and the T levels had to be below 310ng/dl. They were split into 2 groups ad clomid was given to one group at a dosage of 25mg EOD, the other 50mg EOD. This EOD dosing protocol is a bit unique but given clomid and most serms extended half and active lives one can see where ti would work fine. The bottom line with this study is the results were virtually the same as the first study I mentioned. T levels virtually doubled many reporting levels over 800ng/dl, no adverse effects noted on cholesterol or any other medically monitored parameters, and perhaps most importantly an improvement in the quality of life.

With the finding of these newer studies one must seriously consider the viability of clomid being a safe, effective, viable option for potential trt therapy as well as perhaps test boosting potential. I think it should be noted the dosages were conservative to say the least and it also should be mentioned that very little difference between the 25mg EOD group and the 50mg EOD was noted in the second study I referenced. I cannot help but think perhaps many of the emotional effects attributed to clomid are perhaps due to it being combined with another serm, or being dosed higher in our pct protocols.

While these studies are not the be all end all I think they point out the potential possibilities for clomids effectiveness for trt, as well as possible effectiveness as attest booster. The things that are attractive are the low dosing, the extremely high rate of effectiveness, the excellent safety profile, and the improved quality of life. It seems the medical community is coming around regarding clomid as a possible trt solution, perhaps it is time for our community to take another look at it as such and maybe even consider its uses in other applications as well.

Anyway some food for thought……

Refs:
BJU Int. 2012 Aug;110(4):573-8. doi: 10.1111/j.1464-410X.2011.10702.x. Epub 2011 Nov 1.Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hypogonadal men.Katz DJ¹, Nabulsi O, Tal R, Mulhall JP.
BJU Int. 2012 Nov;110(10):1524-8. doi: 10.1111/j.1464-410X.2012.10968.x. Epub 2012 Mar 28.
Clomiphene citrate is safe and effective for long-term management of hypogonadism.
Moskovic DJ¹, Katz DJ, Akhavan A, Park K, Mulhall JP.

Int Braz J Urol. 2012 Jul-Aug;38(4):512-8.Twenty-five milligrams of clomiphene citrate presents positive effect on treatment of male testosterone deficiency - a prospective study. Da Ros CT¹, Averbeck MA.

[tarmyg]

Never knew this. Thank you for the info. Would be interesting to see if someone here have already tried this!

[lovbyts]

I though I had read there were some long term negative or at least limited effectiveness with long term use.

[jimmyinkedup]

I though I had read there were some long term negative or at least limited effectiveness with long term use.

I cant find any long term studies so if there are it would be anecdotal. Do you recall what they were? The long term neg effects? Some report vision issues with serms due to the proximity of the the areas in the brain they effect being so close to the optic nerve but in these studies combined there was only one incident reported and other evidence shows simple anti oxidants would offset this.

[magic32]

Those are good citations Jimmy, and as you stated it's likely our overdosing that causes mood/emotional issues, though I'd like to see the study side effects incurred if any (didn't get to read the articles, just your write up...too close to quitting time).

Clomid has long been touted and administered as a test booster in clinical circles, and as cited works very well in hypogonadic populations, However, with regard to your hypothesis on using SERMS for other applications, their effects have proven to be negligible in normal testosterone level populations, and would be completely nullified in the presence of medications as potent as gear. Our PCT application for SERMS is best, but I'd love to see any research which both posits supports a contrary opinion. Got to get out of here.

Best you.

[lovbyts]

I cant find any long term studies so if there are it would be anecdotal. Do you recall what they were? The long term neg effects? Some report vision issues with serms due to the proximity of the the areas in the brain they effect being so close to the optic nerve but in these studies combined there was only one incident reported and other evidence shows simple anti oxidants would offset this.

Im pretty sure I read it in the hrt section and it may have been from lowt. Ill see if I can find it but im using the app right now.

[pjliftsalot]

Nice info. Do you think clomid is the best drug for pct?

[austinite]

Excellent write up jimmy. I too have been thinking about the dosing. I've looked very closely at any possible adverse reactions from coupling clomid and nolva, but to no avail.

I agree that we can start looking at lower doses. But in this case I think the 4 week term should also be revisited. The original point of the higher doses was obviously higher results in a shorter span. So maybe we should take it easy and run lower doses for longer periods.

I think nolva is should remain a staple as it works differently than clomid as you mentioned, and can pickup any slack clomid has. Nolvadex is fairly mild in comparison but compliments clomid really well. Of course I'm talking about the on/off cyclers, not TRT patients. I can see clomid in the future as the sole TRT compound. Wonder what that would do to hCg protocols on TRT though.

Great topic jimmy. Always making our brains work. Thanks.

[NACH3]

Very well written... And with a great thought process for us all to consider!

My girlfriend has her PhD. In Endocrinology(Integrative Biology)... I would love her to read this, due to the fact that I have Low T and we are trying to get pregnant!!

Also, when we went to see our fertility Dr he was very adamant that Clomid is in fact the usual go to drug(SERM) for increased testosterone !! I'm just waiting to get back out West(CA) b/c I have all of the tests waiting for me to get done...

One ? I do have is - "I don't understand how being on TRT Would hinder ones ability to increase test levels(which I would think would help one get his girlfriend pregnant... But I have gotten feedback on the forum stating that it's actually the contrary)?? Can you possibly shed some much needed knowledge on this part if my post... Why/How/What would be the reasoning, etc??

Thank you... And again thank you for sharing this post with the community!!

[jimmyinkedup]

Excellent write up jimmy. I too have been thinking about the dosing. I've looked very closely at any possible adverse reactions from coupling clomid and nolva, but to no avail.

I agree that we can start looking at lower doses. But in this case I think the 4 week term should also be revisited. The original point of the higher doses was obviously higher results in a shorter span. So maybe we should take it easy and run lower doses for longer periods.

I think nolva is should remain a staple as it works differently than clomid as you mentioned, and can pickup any slack clomid has. Nolvadex is fairly mild in comparison but compliments clomid really well. Of course I'm talking about the on/off cyclers, not TRT patients. I can see clomid in the future as the sole TRT compound. Wonder what that would do to hCg protocols on TRT though.

Great topic jimmy. Always making our brains work. Thanks.

I agree re pct as far as Nolva/Clomid for sure.
Its an interesting topic and one that may provide an easier, more affordable, and more available trt option for those where otherwise, for the factors just mentioned, trt isnt possible. I can see Dr's more readily prescribing it over injections and if it can be safely and effectively used allowing more people to get out of the grips of Low T I am all for it.
Again food for thought and discussion.

[jimmyinkedup]

Very well written... And with a great thought process for us all to consider!

My girlfriend has her PhD. In Endocrinology(Integrative Biology)... I would love her to read this, due to the fact that I have Low T and we are trying to get pregnant!!

Also, when we went to see our fertility Dr he was very adamant that Clomid is in fact the usual go to drug(SERM) for increased testosterone !! I'm just waiting to get back out West(CA) b/c I have all of the tests waiting for me to get done...

One ? I do have is - "I don't understand how being on TRT Would hinder ones ability to increase test levels(which I would think would help one get his girlfriend pregnant... But I have gotten feedback on the forum stating that it's actually the contrary)?? Can you possibly shed some much needed knowledge on this part if my post... Why/How/What would be the reasoning, etc??

Thank you... And again thank you for sharing this post with the community!!

Test levels and fertility do not go hand in hand but I will try to explain the relationship and why exogenous test injections could lower fertility.
When you inject exogenous test, your endegenous systems shut down. There is no need to produce test as your levels are high enough, the body adapts to this.
Normal circymstances the production of test is triggered from a cascade of events but ill do the cliff notes, simplified version. Basicall GnRH is released which triggers the production of Leutenizing hormone (LH) and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). Leutininzing hormoe is responsible for the production of Test, FSH is responsible for spermatogenesis (simplified, applicable to your question version). Now when you introduce exogenous test, GnRh is NOT released. This impacts your endogenous test production as well as spermatogenesis. Reduction of sperm production = less likely to get female pregnant.
As you can see when you take clomid both T levels and Spermatogensis increase due to levels of LH and FSH increaasing. So if it was used as a trt option the likihood of pregnancy would increase.
Did that answer your ?

[NACH3]

Appreciate the the reply... And I too, would rather be on clomid for test boosting rather than TRT... Any Day! That's just my .02!

Yes it did BTW(answer my question) thank you and much appreciated!

Also, very easily understood... Now I see why TRT would be a less likely way for pregnancy!! I've asked this ? A few times in a post but really got no where or no solid answer... So, I really thank you for taking the time to write this post(the first one above... As I knew I had the right Person here to answer my ?...!!

Thanks again, Big Guy!

[jimmyinkedup]

Those are good citations Jimmy, and as you stated it's likely our overdosing that causes mood/emotional issues, though I'd like to see the study side effects incurred if any (didn't get to read the articles, just your write up...too close to quitting time).

Clomid has long been touted and administered as a test booster in clinical circles, and as cited works very well in hypogonadic populations, However, with regard to your hypothesis on using SERMS for other applications, their effects have proven to be negligible in normal testosterone level populations, and would be completely nullified in the presence of medications as potent as gear. Our PCT application for SERMS is best, but I'd love to see any research which both posits supports a contrary opinion. Got to get out of here.

Best you.

Yes I dont necessarily see is as a body comp changer by any means, just as a way to increase test most applicable for trt purposes to be sure. I would venture to guesss if your walking around with t levels of 1200 that clomid by no means would double it. Diminishing returns to be sure. Nice to ssee you posting Magic!

[kelkel]

[QUOTE=jimmyinkedup;6900324]50mg EOD was noted in the second study I referenced. I cannot help but think perhaps many of the emotional effects attributed to clomid are perhaps due to it being combined with another serm, or being dosed higher in our pct protocols. [QUOTE]

I've always considered this (in bold) to be the issue relative to sides. I'd prefer lower dosed, longer pct's.

I agree that we can start looking at lower doses. But in this case I think the 4 week term should also be revisited. The original point of the higher doses was obviously higher results in a shorter span. So maybe we should take it easy and run lower doses for longer periods.

Exactly ^^^.


GREAT write up Jimmy. Really enjoy what you put forth.

[lovbyts]

I only found one post so far that did say something about long term use is not good but no evidence to back it up. Ill also keep looking to see what I can find.

I found several people who say they are using clomid for HRT and they all seem to like the results. The mg dose seems to vary. I read one case study where it was used for 6 months and everyone had positive results. Ill see if I can find it a little later and add the link.

Great topic

[marcus300]

Great insight Jimmy excellent read and very interesting

[reporich]

My TRT specialist has one guy on clomid only and she said his test shot up to 1600!

[tdoe11]

It's mods like you and others Jimmi that set this forums 10 clicks above all others. As always thanks dude. So much knowledge here I love it.

[jimmyinkedup]

Nice info. Do you think clomid is the best drug for pct?

Imsorry, I kind of answered this but it was in a post reply to someone else.
I think Clomid and Nolva is best for PCT. Not one or the other by themselves.

[jimmyinkedup]

My TRT specialist has one guy on clomid only and she said his test shot up to 1600!

Wow, that is not typical but it shows 2 things IMO. The potential for the drugs effectiveness and the variation in response from individual to individual. Good Stuff.

[jimmyinkedup]

It's mods like you and others Jimmi that set this forums 10 clicks above all others. As always thanks dude. So much knowledge here I love it.

Thanks man. I think the staff here is amazing but I think the members here are what really set the place apart. Either way its an honor to be a member and on staff at this board. Again-Thank You for the kind words.

[tarmyg]

I see both austinite and kelkel are mentioning a possible different approach to PCT. Are there any recommendations that can already be made with the available data we have now?

[jimmyinkedup]

I see both austinite and kelkel are mentioning a possible different approach to PCT. Are there any recommendations that can already be made with the available data we have now?

Well I normally run my pcts 5-6 weeks and my clomid doses are 70mg/day week 1 and 35mg/day weeks 2-6. I started doing this when I ran 19 nors like deca or tren as the shutdown is hard but I run deca at some dose every cycle so now all my pcts are like this. I think it needs to be tried by people before it can be difinatively stated but I think its a good way to go and works for me. Doses could prob even be lower off clomid like 50 /day weel one and 25,day or maybe even less.

[dave8307]

So if I was to run a Clomid only cycle would there then be no need for pct since clomid is essentially stimulating a natural pathway?

[Spartans09]

So if I was to run a Clomid only cycle would there then be no need for pct since clomid is essentially stimulating a natural pathway?

Clomid would not elevate your testosterone levels enough to be considered a standard cycle of, say, 500mg of test cyp.. No, I would not run it as a cycle. The discussion is really referring to subjects who are hypogonadal naturally or from cessation of a traditional anabolic cycle.

[dave8307]

Reporich stated that his TRT specialist reoprted having a patient who's free test was up to 1600 while just on Clomid. So then my next question would be what levels are considered standard cycle levels for free test or does that vary from person to person?

[jimmyinkedup]

Reporich stated that his TRT specialist reoprted having a patient who's free test was up to 1600 while just on Clomid. So then my next question would be what levels are considered standard cycle levels for free test or does that vary from person to person?

It varies from person to person and that result is not typical. If one were to take clomid, not necessarily for trt or pct, I dont think the reason should be anabolic properties. Staying within the range or even slightly above it has been show to not make much difference in body composition at all, however being below it does seem to.
The thing is this, this is a bodybuilding site, but trt and so on needs to be viewed and treated as an overall quality of life condition. Thats the best approach in every way. It will allow and foster acceptance publicly and within the medical community, also the biggest difference it can make, even in amount of muscle, is the quality of life factors improving your motivation, energy levels etc to train properly and so on.

[Juced_porkchop]

It varies from person to person and that result is not typical. If one were to take clomid, not necessarily for trt or pct, I dont think the reason should be anabolic properties. Staying within the range or even slightly above it has been show to not make much difference in body composition at all, however being below it does seem to.
The thing is this, this is a bodybuilding site, but trt and so on needs to be viewed and treated as an overall quality of life condition. Thats the best approach in every way. It will allow and foster acceptance publicly and within the medical community, also the biggest difference it can make, even in amount of muscle, is the quality of life factors improving your motivation, energy levels etc to train properly and so on.

very well said!

[Walnutz]

Wow...another great article!

Hey Jimmy, you ever read anything from the late, great Nandi?

[jimmyinkedup]

Wow...another great article!

Hey Jimmy, you ever read anything from the late, great Nandi?

Yes I have man. He was an extremely smart man. Have you been around the forums that long? I have a thread here somewhere where I was posting some old things from him. I think I have learned more from reading Nandi (Karl's) old stuff than I have anywhere. Its so funny now reading it you realize how far ahead of his time he was. He was saying things that didnt catch on and become accepted as standards and fact until years later. Amazing. Wow not too many of us around know who Nandi was.