Newbie - Dbol or Tren

[superflyanimal]

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Stats:
Goal: Aesthetics/Male model physique
Age: 31
height: 5ft 9
weight: 71.4 kg/ 156.5 pounds
bf%: 14%-17% (at a guess)
yrs training: 1.5 years of bodybuilding (7 years sports - football/kickboxing)
cycle exp: 1 cycle of M-drol
planned pct upon finishing cycle: Triazole or Reversitol
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On-Cycle (4 weeks)
M-drol 10/20/20/20
Milk Thistle - 2 capsules daily

Off-Cycle (2 weeks)
Milk Thistle - 2 capsules daily

PCT
Triazole - 3 capsules daily
(I also have Reversitol, but I chose Triazole instead)
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Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and the steroid game, so go easy, lol. I enjoyed good results from the cycle of mdrol, but I didn't like the side effects, which included loss of sex drive and shortness of breath. I'm going to start another cycle soon and I was thinking of d-bol or Tren. I wouldn't inject so it would be the tablet form and I wouldn't to do an aggressive cycle as I've still a lot to learn and I know you guys will say not to do it all, but you know newbies never listen. I'm researching a lot and I'm going to try a second cycle of 4 weeks again, same as mentioned above. I've been reading some of the other threads on here and this is what I have seen:

1) Trens usually a cutter and dbols more for bulking
2) You lose all your gains pretty quickly after you come of d-bol, but you keep more of the gains from tren
3) Tren = BEAST. This drug will cause a drastic change in body composition. Fat will be diminished, lean muscle will increase, strength will increase, water will not increase, it doesn't aromatize. BUT- it is a progestin and will bind to progesterone receptors (which can cause ED, lactation, gyno) and has one of the most severe side effect profiles of and steroid. Night sweats, acne, cant sleep, laboured breathing, kills cardio, tren "cough"
4) Libido is a big problem with Tren only cycle, so make sure to run proper PCT after


What Tren version would be the best and what's your opinions? As I said, go easy, we were all newbies once, lol.

[lovbyts]

OK Ill go easy. Stop. Not just slow down but stop.

Now start by reading the stickies at the top about beginner cycles and the rest of them because at a basic level you are far from understanding what is what.

Example. Should I use dbol or tren = should I buy a Volvo or Ferrari?

No that does not mean buy the Ferrari, there are many things to consider and before you start racing at 200 mph you need to learn to drive first. Does that mean buy the Volvo/dbol? No because you still need to learn the basics before driving.
http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...rst-cycle.html

[superflyanimal]

I've read that one and a lot of the newbie stickers:
--------
Age: My age is good
Nutrition Plan: I have a nutrition plan and maybe it's not perfect but I'm getting the right macros
Solid Base/Foundation: 5'8" to 5'9" tall - 175 to 180 lbs. I am 156.5 pounds so slightly off, but I can't seem to hit 168 pounds, even when eating 3000-4000 calories a day
Training experience: Been training a year and a half, it's mainly compound exercises with isolation at the end of the workout, I get the best results from this. I am aware that increased strength gains from steroids can lead to injuries if your joints and muscle connectors arent ready for it.
Planning: I've done my research into planning and PCT
Realistic expectations: I understand it's a long term game but I've been training a year and a half and I'm not seeing the gains I want
-------

I don't think I will do dbol because it's mainly water weight and you lose all the gains when you come off it, but I heard Tren-E with HGH Growth Hormone will get the best results and you will keep most of the results, which is a big bonus and what I am after.

[lovbyts]

Well that's great. Now go back and re read the link I gave you because you must have skipped 80% of it or you have short term memory loss because you defiantly didnt get it. If you go the route you are thinking I can say with a high likelihood we will be seeing you back soon asking for help from your cycle going BAD...

Ill give you a little help. Tren = NO. Not for 1st cycle, not for 2nd and not, Never without test.

Please dont get offended, just go back and re read the link to my first cycle again.

[zempey]

You are going to hurt yourself if you don't start listening to the experienced members here. You aren't grasping what you read due to your response regarding dbol and tren. I am new to this forum as well and my knowledge is limited in comparison to others here, but even I can see you need to slow down and get a grasp on compounds and how they work together. I am not hating on you by any means, but from one noob to another, take some time and do more research and ask some more questions. These are dangerous drugs if used recklessly or blindly, you don't want to pay for a mistake the rest of your life.

[superflyanimal]

Lol, okay I'll reread it, but what would you recommend for a first cycle? Testosterone only for your first cycle as mentioned:

- Week 1 to 12: Testosterone enanthate
- Week 1 to 12: hCG
- Week 1 to 14: Arimidex every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts)

Does Testosterone enanthate come in oral form and is it just a much milder anabolic steroid then Tren-E?


Zempey: I am trying to do as much research as I can and that's why I am on this forum, to ask questions and get a better understanding, I know you guys are only trying to help and trust me, I do appreciate any feedback. Would you suggest I look into compounds more? The site recommends Test but as I asked, is it just a milder anabolic steroid?

[superflyanimal]

By compounds, do you mean 2:1 and 1:1 anabolic and androgenic ratios etc? It's all very confusing, with the amount of terms being used and some of them overlap and some of the terms are used in different contexts: HGH, HGH boosters, Test, Test-boosters, Anabolic, Androgenic, AAS, Natural testosterone, Synthetic Testosterone etc etc.

[lovbyts]

No test does not come in oral.
There are a lot of differences between test and tren, not just it's anabolic properties but it's chemical makeup.

It's not just about being mild or strong. It should have explained in the link about why test is needed. You should not take any other aas without at least a base level amount of testosterone because any other ass be it tren, deca, anavar, dbol, tbol, nnp or ??? they will shut down your natural test production.

It does not stop there though, that's just the beginning. You need to read up on HCG and why you need it use it also and about PCT after you run a cycle. It's FAR more complicated than just taking a pill or injection. Thats why so many people, especially kids get fvcked up and come here looking for help daily because their girlfriend/wife is complaining because Mr. Woody is not Mr. Play-dough.

[zempey]

When I said compounds, I was referring to test, tren, deca, hgh, etc. Why does it have to be oral and not injection? Test should be your base then if you feel you want/need more you can add something to the stack that suits your experience level. I wish I had found this site before I started my cycle of test/tren because it started to go south and these guys helped me bring it back. $hit can get out of hand quickly, even on low doses, so knowledge is key to success. I did my last pin yesterday, now I will wait a couple weeks and do my pct of clomid and nolvadex.

[Juced_porkchop]

Lol, okay I'll reread it, but what would you recommend for a first cycle? Testosterone only for your first cycle as mentioned:

- Week 1 to 12: Testosterone enanthate
- Week 1 to 12: hCG
- Week 1 to 14: Arimidex every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts)

Does Testosterone enanthate come in oral form and is it just a much milder anabolic steroid then Tren-E?


Zempey: I am trying to do as much research as I can and that's why I am on this forum, to ask questions and get a better understanding, I know you guys are only trying to help and trust me, I do appreciate any feedback. Would you suggest I look into compounds more? The site recommends Test but as I asked, is it just a milder anabolic steroid?

your body used test for many functions naturally... not things like dbol or tren... I rec a Test base in all cycles and for first cycle i would rec test only, maybe even a couple cycles.. I would rec it 14 wks and HC only last 4-5 weeks leqading up to BUT NOT into PCT at 500iu 2x a week. but with a basic test cycle and one under 16 wks i dont really feel HCG is a big need, but will help IMO.

YOu are on right track by coming here, but need to keep researching. dont forget PCT////

[superflyanimal]

I think I'm still confused with the term "testosterone", because I assumed it comes in both oral and injection form, but you can only inject it (except for test-400 i think which is an exception). There are tons of oral tablets which are described as "testosterone", but I'm guessing they aren't. I took M-drol because they are in the superdrol category, which were described as the "strongest legal steroids" (now illegal too apparently). Superdrol is a Pro Hormone which increases your bodies production of testosterone, thus it is classed as an anobolic steroid, is this correct?

So the testosterone that people refer to here, is the injectable kind, like Testosterone Enanthate. Are all the tablet forms either testosterone boosters, Pro-hormones or Human Growth Hormone (HGH) and not what people call testosterone here? I took Triazole for my PCT in my cycle, so what is the difference between pro-hormones and test boosters then, do they not BOTH make the body produce testosterone naturally?

[lovbyts]

I think I'm still confused with the term "testosterone", because I assumed it comes in both oral and injection form, but you can only inject it (except for test-400 i think which is an exception). There are tons of oral tablets which are described as "testosterone", but I'm guessing they aren't. I took M-drol because they are in the superdrol category, which were described as the "strongest legal steroids" (now illegal too apparently). Superdrol is a Pro Hormone which increases you bodies production of testosterone, thus it is classed as an anobolic steroid, is this correct?

So the testosterone that people refer too here is the injectable kind, like Testosterone Enanthate. Are all the tablet forms either testosterone boosters, Pro-hormones or Human Growth Hormone (HGH) and not what people call here testosterone? I took Triazole for my PCT in my cycle, so what is the difference between pro-hormones and test boosters then, do they not BOTH make the body produce testosterone naturally?

I have a bridge named Testosterone I will sell you for a discounted price just because I like you. Those are pro hormones and supplements with fancy names and scientific looking data to confuse you. Testosterone is injectable unless you are on HRT and get the gel or a patch. If you want to try to cycle using gel or the patch you had better be ready to take a daily bath in jell or cover 2/3 of your body with a patch. lol Yes really.

I hate needles but since I had to start hrt I had not choice and have pretty much gotten use to it. If you want to cycle you will need to inject. No way around it. Orals like dbol and even var are hard on your liver so can only be used for short times and again you still need a testosterone base ran with them, injection.

You dont even want to start asking or learning about HGH yet, trust me. Just get that one out of your head unless you are willing to spend over 1K for $50 worth of some mystery peptide.

You think this is a lot to take in? Just wait, it gets more intimidating. If you want to just take a pill then stick to multi vitamins and creatine.

[superflyanimal]

I'll leave the HGH for now then. So what is the difference between pro-hormones and test boosters then, do they not BOTH make the body produce testosterone naturally? I did get a lot of strength and size gains using mdrol.

[superflyanimal]

I'll leave the HGH for now then. So what is the difference between pro-hormones and test boosters then, do they not BOTH make the body produce testosterone naturally? I did get a lot of strength and size gains using mdrol.

It's okay, I'll find this out:

Prohormones are molecular chemicals that are designed to bind to certain structures in the body, particularly muscle, that influence rapid growth. So they basically act as synthetic testosterone and so your body stops producing it, which is why you need the PCT when your on PH. So now that leads me to the question of how Pro Hormones are different from injecting Testosterone.

I'll find that out too:

So pro hormones are converted into hormones (testosterone) after being processed by the liver, which is why it can be very taxing on the liver and you need to be careful when taking "oral steroids". Injectibles are just pure testosterone injected straight into the system, by-passing the liver (which is why you don't get it in oral form, because the liver must destroy it). So pro-hormones are precursors to steroids, ie. they are not anabolic until certain enzymes convert the Pro Hormone into an active steroid.


Is that correct? :/

[Cuz]

You are not ready for steroids I dont think quite yet. Like stated just ease up and read more about this game that will help you the most right now.

[superflyanimal]

You are not ready for steroids I dont think quite yet. Like stated just ease up and read more about this game that will help you the most right now.

I made slight edits above, maybe you can tell me if that's correct? I won't go on another cycle for another 2 weeks, so I will research until then, but I might try PH again, I don't like the idea of injecting and I did see results on M-drol.

[ottomaddox]

The slight benefits you may see from your mdrol cycles, will definitely not outweigh the negative effects from the compound, i.e. the effects on cholesterol, liver and testosterone. And just because it's over the counter, doesn't mean its safe.

I made slight edits above, maybe you can tell me if that's correct? I won't go on another cycle for another 2 weeks, so I will research until then, but I might try PH again, I don't like the idea of injecting and I did see results on M-drol.

[PBJtime]

I can't stand to read anymore .

Look , you need Test with anything you run , if you plan on wanting to ever recover from AAS in the near future . Or remain shutdown for good your choice

Buy and USE with all cycles ;
HCG
Test - of any sort Enth. / Cyp / Prop
AI - adex
And run a Full pct Nolva / clomid 4-5 wks

On the other hand , if you cannot self inject or have any one pin you , AAS IS NOT FOR YOU BRO ! You will do more harm than good in the long haul without this stuff .

[superflyanimal]

The slight benefits you may see from your mdrol cycles, will definitely not outweigh the negative effects from the compound, i.e. the effects on cholesterol, liver and testosterone. And just because it's over the counter, doesn't mean its safe.

Understood. I'm researching testosterone at the minute and looking for the benefits over PH. So much information to learn.

[Back In Black]

Here's my advice - fix your diet. If you can't gain weight without steroids you won't gain or retain weight without them.

Can't gain on 3000cals then add 500. Can't gain on that add another 500. And so on. Simple as that. AAS aren't magic and will cause you far more harm in the long run if you aren't seriously well prepared.

We have a great diet section that you really should visit.

Best of luck.

[superflyanimal]

Here's my advice - fix your diet. If you can't gain weight without steroids you won't gain or retain weight without them.

Can't gain on 3000cals then add 500. Can't gain on that add another 500. And so on. Simple as that. AAS aren't magic and will cause you far more harm in the long run if you aren't seriously well prepared.

We have a great diet section that you really should visit.

Best of luck.

I've been looking that too. Thanks for the advise.

[MuscleInk]

I've been looking that too. Thanks for the advise.

Glad you a being open minded and receptive. A lot of great contributors to this thread; many with years to decades of experience in anabolic compounds.

As mentioned, nutrition comes first. You will never run a truly successful cycle if you under feed the growth. Steroids won't compensate for a lack of fuel, which comes from food. The first place is to calculate your own TDEE, that will tell you the minimum calories needed to STAY at the level you are at. If you want to grow, you MUST eat beyond that. Nutrition is more than eating clean, it's knowing when, what, and how much to eat. If you over consume, there is a risk you will add to much body fat. If you under eat, you may actually lose size or see very limited growth. More importantly, off cycle, those gains WILL diminish if you don't adjust your intake to the new TDEE and eat at that new TDEE or slightly above. Nothing trumps nutrition. It is the foundation of all success in this sport.

Good to see you are stepping away from PHs. I just about flip my lid every time someone says "legal steroids" because they conclude what is "legal" or available as an OTC, must therefore be "safe". Nothing could potentially be further from the truth. The FDA does NOT regulate the supplement market like they do devices, pharmaceuticals, and food. In general, any supplement manufacturer is aware of approved ingredients they can use. This does not stop them however from including unapproved ingredients and they are not closely regulated as I stated. Subsequently, many OTC products that hit the market are later removed because of their dangerous effects on health or because manufacturers have added unapproved (not necessarily banned, just NOT approved) substances. As you found out first hand, PHs are anything but safe. They have a wide range of unpleasant side effects, can affect your own natural testosterone production, and in most cases, are far more toxic than anabolic steroids. Again, approved for OTC sales does not mean SAFE.

If you are serious about anabolics, you are going to have to become comfortable with injections. You cannot safely run oral only cycles and testosterone needs to be the base of every cycle. This has to be done correctly and safely or not at all.

Glad you're taking the time to ask and learn. Slow and steady is the way to go. Don't risk your health in an attempt to achieve quick results, especially if they are short lived.

[superflyanimal]

"It is more than eating clean, it's knowing when, what, and how much to eat. If you over consume, there is a risk you will add to much body fat."

Yeah, I've put on some weight in the mid section, I will give this TDEE thing a go. I can't write more now cus it's late and I'm tired but I'll see you on the diet and nutrient forums tomorrow, lol.

[lovbyts]

Good choice and a great place to get started.
Yes figuring all this aas stuff out is not easy and it will take a while so dont stress and dont try to figure it all out in one day. Baby steps. We like to say (or at least I do) it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. I'm still learning. I was just reading a couple emails from several years ago with a member and I had to LOL at some of my questions.

I also had the same mentality as most, if test is good then stacking it with this or that must be better. It took a while for me to understand also that no, more is not better. I'm glad I had a few people who keep beating it into my thick skull that 1st cycle is test only. Ive learned since then that if it aint broke dont fix it, meaning if you are happy with your 1st cycle then there is no reason to add anything to your next cycle and keep it the same.

Good luck on your journey of learning

[superflyanimal]

Good choice and a great place to get started.
I was just reading a couple emails from several years ago with a member and I had to LOL at some of my questions.

Good luck on your journey of learning

I know, I'm sure my questions probably sound very unknowledgeable (if thats a word), but the best way to learn is to ask questions to those who are experienced like yourself to point me in the right direction of areas I need more research in. As people have mentioned, if my nutrition and diet isn't sorted then I will only lose my gains anyway when I come off the cycle. It's been really hard for me to hit 12 stone and it can be frustrating when you have been lifting a year and a half and the gains arn't what I want them to be. I want to be making "all kinda gainzzz" as the Hodge Twins say.

It also interests me to see how far I can go from being natty. To my knowledge, all the fitness stars that I see on youtube, ****z (why is the King of Aesthetics zizz censored here?? Lol), Jeff Seid, Gregg Plitt, Hodge Twins and the rest of the aesthetics crew are all on the gear.

[Honkey_Kong]

No test does not come in oral.
There are a lot of differences between test and tren, not just it's anabolic properties but it's chemical makeup.

It's not just about being mild or strong. It should have explained in the link about why test is needed. You should not take any other aas without at least a base level amount of testosterone because any other ass be it tren, deca, anavar, dbol, tbol, nnp or ??? they will shut down your natural test production.

It does not stop there though, that's just the beginning. You need to read up on HCG and why you need it use it also and about PCT after you run a cycle. It's FAR more complicated than just taking a pill or injection. Thats why so many people, especially kids get fvcked up and come here looking for help daily because their girlfriend/wife is complaining because Mr. Woody is not Mr. Play-dough.

I'm guessing he meant this: Methyltrienolone - Steroid .com

But he could also mean one of those tren prohormones too out there on the market.

[zempey]

A year and a half of lifting is not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things, your body is still adapting to lifting. You would be at the top tier of gainers to put on 10-15lbs of lean muscle mass a year naturally, so keep plugging away and experimenting with training styles and diet strategies to see what works best for your body. I trained for 10 years before I went to the "dark side" as we called it back then, and after that cycle didn't touch it again for another 4 or 5 years. I was bigger and stronger in my mid 30's naturally than I ever was on gear, even now my lifts aren't what they were back then. Use your youth to gain as much as you can with the abundance of hormones you produce naturally.

[superflyanimal]

Man, I can lose about 15 lbs in 3 days, but see trying to gain 15 lbs...
(Thats really not a lot of gains for a year by the way, that kinda sucks)

I have doing different training routines for 3 months at a time. Currently I have just finished Rippetoes Strength Program, but I think I have just got fatter. I saw a more muscular physique keeping 3 x 12 for the compound routines. I read that if you train more for strength and lift heavy for less, you keep your physique better. If you try sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, you lose your gains quicker.

[zempey]

I like 4x15, it gets a ton of blood in the muscle, doesn't beat up tendons and connective tissue, and builds a ton of strength if done correctly. No, 15lbs is not a lot of gains in a year, but 15lbs of lean muscle mass is. I too drop body fat with zero effert, but putting on size is very difficult, even on gear, my body just wants to stay at 250lbs +- 5 or 10, fat or in shape.

[superflyanimal]

I like 4x15, it gets a ton of blood in the muscle, doesn't beat up tendons and connective tissue, and builds a ton of strength if done correctly.

I'll tell you something, I seem to be in a lot more muscle pain after doing 3x12 routines than I did with lifting heavier 3x6 routines. I always got a better pump from it and I would usually drop the weight and maybe do a 4th set just to get that extra pump. It seemed to work a lot better for me. I never got as sore after my heavier workouts for some reason.