Question about adding dbol to beginning of cutting cycle

41, 6'0'', 230 pounds, 16% bf
lifting for 20 years, had to take a break for about a year due to left shoulder injury, no surgery but a lot of PT, still have nerve impingement but can deal with the pain.
9 cycles, started with Deca first cycle 12 years ago, then moved to sust/deca, dbol/sust/deca, etc. adding tren and winny in later cycles. Always had great results with tren, sides very minimal. Tren is one of my favorite all time, bulking or cutting. Proviron and adex always kick ass for me and always have. My goals:

Drop weight dramatically while maintaining muscle mass or a small gain in LBM. I've done this before with Test E, Test P and Tren with appropriate dosing adex and proviron.

dbol 50 mg/day weeks 1-3
sust - 500 mg/week weeks 1-16
test p - 100 mg/EOD weeks 1-13
tren e - 400 mg/week weeks 1-12
proviron - 50 mg/day weeks 1-16
arimidex - 0.5 mg/MWF -weeks 1-16
hcg - 500 I.U. EOD weeks 10-16 and PCT
clenbuterol - 20-40 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off (clen is harsh for me and can't go to work shaking like a leaf)
T3 25mcg throughout
Armour thyroid - 60 mcg throughout
nolvadex - 40 mg ED weeks 16-18
nolva - 20 mg ED weeks 18-20

My diet is super clean and will be on track for the cycle. Always eat clean anyway, but on cycle will monitor detailed calorie intake, keep proteins up and cut out unnecessary carbs.

Question I have is does this cycle look OK? I was thinking of adding Masteron (tried it once with Tren but sides got harsh quick, although I got cut quick). Any thoughts on how to add Mast into this cycle, or would that be too much? This cycle already has a lot in it, but I know I can handle this much, as I've done it before with awesome results. I've also never added dbol to the beginning of a cutting cycle, but want to add it here to give me a kick in the weight room and build some quick mass to help my BMR kick up a notch or two. Thoughts? Will that work or be counterproductive in the long run to my ultimate goal? Cost is not an issue.

Let me know what you think. Thanks!!!

Personally, I would not be taking dbol for a cutting cycle. Some like Winnie (not I, hurts my joints too much) but it may exacerbate your shoulder pain.

Take a look into TB500 for the shoulder pain. It seems to really help a lot of people; it's a healing peptide with weekly injections lasting a minimum six weeks.

another opinion

that is a fairly advanced cycle you are planning on. You are 41, 230lbs and 16% body fat. You sure you really need all that? You are not a kid anymore, and you probably need to do a rethink on all those drugs you want to put into your body.

Finally, I'm going to ask you some questions about your nutritional plan. TBH, EVERYONE comes here says they have a "super clean" diet. I don't even know what that means anymore. Blokes come here saying that and then when we look at their diet, I see all manner of things I personally would not touch, like excessive protein powder use, rice, bread, protein power bars, a lack of the right kind of veggies, and so forth.

Do you know your TDEE? how many cals are you consuming per day? how many grams of protein do you consume daily? what is your macro split? (not your goal, but your actual), how long have you been eating correctly?

Answer these questions, then do us a a solid by posting your nutrition plan and daily diet, complete with macros per meal and total macros per day, in our nutrition sections for us to have a look see.

See you on the other side
---Roman

I would just stick to the clen for fat burning. Adding the T3 and Armour will burn up your gains. Way to much thyroid stimulation. The side effects will not be worth it.

Thanks for the advice on the dbol. I like Winny but will keep it out of this cycle.

I never knew about TB500, thanks for the advice! Where do you inject? Into the subacromial space or AC joint? I know how to do it, used to be a paramedic, just don't know the best site. I'm thinking subacromial.

I've done this cycle before and it worked well, but you are probably right about cutting out some of the gear here. I'm not necessarily afraid of the gear itself, I can handle it, but I'd like to hear what the sides are on that much at my age, just so I can learn and keep from doing any damage. Anyway, after your advice, this is what I'm thinking now:

sust - 500 mg/week weeks 1-16
test p - 100 mg/EOD weeks 1-4
tren e - 400 mg/week weeks 1-12
adex - 0.5 mg/MWF -weeks 1-16
hcg - 500 I.U. EOD weeks 10-16 and PCT
clenbuterol - 20-40 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off (clen is harsh for me and can't go to work shaking like a leaf)
PCT:nolva - 40 mg ED weeks 16-18
nolva - 20 mg ED weeks 18-20

I gotcha with the diet question. My TDEE is ~2900 cal/day working out 5x/week; I am aiming for ~2300 cal/day. Is that too much of a drop or on track?

I am consuming about 2700-2800 cals/day now working out 4 days/week, 350 grams protein, and I'm going to be on a keto diet, so don't do a split on that. I've been eating well for two years; meaning no alcohol, sugar, no fast food, all food cooked at home.

I follow Palumbo diet when on a cutting cycle, and it ends up being pretty easy once my body gets into the ketosis. I've heard from a lot of people that it's not a good diet due to ketogenesis, but it works really well for me.

Meal 1:
6 whole eggs

Meal 2:
Shake: 60g Whey Protein

Meal 3:
8 - 12 oz chicken with 1/2-cup nuts

Meal 4:
Shake: 60g Whey Protein

Meal 5:
8 oz salmon, tuna or beef with a green salad (a small amount of olive oil and rice vinegar which I love)

Meal 6:
Shake: 60g Whey Protein

OFF DAY: Essentially the same except the first meal is oatmeal, grits or eggs and what bread, last two meals are 12-16 oz beef grilled and pasta (spaghetti, bowtie pasta with broccoli, carrots, oil and vinegar, etc.)

I'll post a more detailed nutrition and diet plan in nutrition section, just wanted a basic post here for you all to see.

Thanks a LOT for the advice Roman. Exactly why I came here!

---TM

Cool testluva, I'll keep the thyroid out of the picture. Like Roman said, too much gear at my age probably bad. I've just used those before (4 years ago) and they worked well in combo with clen. Do you think I could take the T3 without the clen? I really don't react well to clen, but it works well, just makes me super-shaky and sweaty... What do you think?

Thanks testluva!!

----TM

dbol is not good for cutting, it will cause bloating

get anavar instead

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mietek

dbol is not good for cutting, it will cause bloating

get anavar instead

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Have you tried it? I've used it before on a cutting cycle and didn't bloat at all. It was actually during a contest prep. My diet was 100% as the op says his is. I drank well over a gallon of water and day and keep getting harder and harder. It helped with fullness and keep my strength up while dieting. Since then I have found anadrol to be even better for this purpose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by taylormedic

Thanks for the advice on the dbol. I like Winny but will keep it out of this cycle.

I never knew about TB500, thanks for the advice! Where do you inject? - subQ underneath a fold of skin in the stomach area Into the subacromial space or AC joint? I know how to do it, used to be a paramedic, just don't know the best site. I'm thinking subacromial.

I've done this cycle before and it worked well, but you are probably right about cutting out some of the gear here. I'm not necessarily afraid of the gear itself, I can handle it, but I'd like to hear what the sides are on that much at my age, - as you grow older, you really should begin to taper down all the gear. Become cognizant of your mortality and learn to avoid injury, which is common after 40+ when tendons and ligaments begin to lose strength. just so I can learn and keep from doing any damage. Anyway, after your advice, this is what I'm thinking now:

sust - 500 mg/week weeks 1-16
test p - 100 mg/EOD weeks 1-4
tren e - 400 mg/week weeks 1-12
adex - 0.5 mg/MWF -weeks 1-16
hcg - 500 I.U. EOD weeks 10-16 and PCT
clenbuterol - 20-40 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off (clen is harsh for me and can't go to work shaking like a leaf)
PCT:nolva - 40 mg ED weeks 16-18
nolva - 20 mg ED weeks 18-20

I gotcha with the diet question. My TDEE is ~2900 cal/day working out 5x/week; I am aiming for ~2300 cal/day. Is that too much of a drop or on track? - 600 cals below TDEE is at the moderately high end of reasonable, so no problem.

I am consuming about 2700-2800 cals/day now working out 4 days/week, 350 grams protein, - protein looks good and I'm going to be on a keto diet, so don't do a split on that. I've been eating well for two years; meaning no alcohol, sugar, no fast food, all food cooked at home.

I follow Palumbo diet when on a cutting cycle, and it ends up being pretty easy once my body gets into the ketosis. I've heard from a lot of people that it's not a good diet due to ketogenesis, but it works really well for me. - I get too grumpy due to lack of carbs when I lift. If you can handle it emotionally, then I'd say go for it. Do you see the usual dip in intensity from it while in the gym?

Meal 1:
6 whole eggs

Meal 2:
Shake: 60g Whey Protein

Meal 3:
8 - 12 oz chicken with 1/2-cup nuts

Meal 4:
Shake: 60g Whey Protein

Meal 5:
8 oz salmon, tuna or beef with a green salad (a small amount of olive oil and rice vinegar which I love)

Meal 6:
Shake: 60g Whey Protein

OFF DAY: Essentially the same except the first meal is oatmeal, grits or eggs and what bread, last two meals are 12-16 oz beef grilled and pasta (spaghetti, bowtie pasta with broccoli, carrots, oil and vinegar, etc.)

I'll post a more detailed nutrition and diet plan in nutrition section, just wanted a basic post here for you all to see.

Thanks a LOT for the advice Roman. Exactly why I came here!

---TM

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over 50% of your protein intake is from whey protein powder. over the long haul, this seems excessive. True, you will be getting the protein aspect from doing so, but you will also be losing out on all the other nutritive values you would ordinarily get if instead you were to eat whole foods.

Serious lack of produce. On your off day, you reference veggies, but nothing during the rest of the week, except a green garden salad which is nutritionally poor in most cases (lettuce based, right?)

I don't see much fiber going on. True, nuts have a small amount. But that's it besides a small green salad!

A couple of things you can do to immediately improve your nutrition profile

get off the whey protein. you are using that as your main staple for a source of protein. A better way would be liquid egg whites. Once 16 fluid oz box from Costco has about 50 grams of protein. No fat. No cholesterol. No carbs. You can use this as the liquid in any blender drink you make. For example, my post workout shake was 24ounces of whole apples (yes, core and all, but I'm not hardcore, so I took the stem off) and a 16oz box of liquid egg whites. Prior to taking, about a 5 gram scoop of psyllium husk fiber. This absorbs moisture and expands to 10x it's volume, improving your output so that it isn't runny.

This is the macro profile of what I just described:
Attachment 152307

Other times, I'll put in the blender a Costco 12.5oz can of chicken breast. Almost zero fat and zero carbs. This too comes to about 50 grams of protein. And it's whole food. Not a powdered milk by product.

Here is the macro profile of that. notice no carbs, and only a hint of fat
Attachment 152306

Both the chicken and the liquid egg whites comes from Costco. The cost of protein from the liquid egg whites comes to about 3 cents per gram, and the chicken comes to something like 4 cents per gram of protein.

So, in my humble opinion, you are excessively relying on whey protein powder when there are other better whole food options available
and, you need to eat more solid green veggies and other brightly colored veggies. Don't bother with the canned corn. And the garden salads are a thing where you feel good by eating them because you think they are really nutritious for you, but you are mostly fooling yourself. Take that same volume, and eat kale or spinach instead.

Make sense?

---Roman

Roman: are you doing a egg white shake and then a canned chicken shake or combined?
Hows the chicken taste?

I just add shit.

for example, on many occasions, I add the liquid egg white to the canned chicken. Comes out to about 100 grams of pure protein, with maybe a half a dozen or less grams of fat. It has a moderate flavor, nothing extreme. Goes down easy.

Other times, depending on where I'm at with my macros, I'll add apples, maybe some raw oats. If I am getting close to my protein target, I might take the chicken out. I always take the psyllium husk fiber right before consuming a blender drink. Else I output liquid. The fiber mops things and has a huge benefit to your GI system.

The chicken tastes great straight out of the can. But I don't usually eat it that way.

When I use the blender, I'm usually through in five minutes or less. This includes prep, ingestion, and clean up.

When I go to work, I bring several fruits (usually bananas and apples) and a full shaker cup with only the chicken and egg whites mixed in there. I was skeptical at first, but the two didn't separate after 4 hours or so, and had the same consistency and quality as if straight from the blender. And yes, I bring a dose of the fiber with me to work.

I'm pretty stoked about this overall, as it seems this is the answer to my protein intake challenge, without all the gas and messiness.

Ok so basically you just pre make your entire days pro intake and drink it throughout. I imagine thats bland as hell! Pretty simplistic way to go; if someones able to handle it.

Omg you have a strong stomach. I'll stick to whey,oats, and flax seed oil for my shakes.

Times ! Dude more than numbers guy forsure! I've never thought of a chicken and egg white shake but right on with the nutri info so I'm going to try one and see. I often mix the two together in a skillet but when time is a factor maybe not quite the same taste but the same or better nutri values Worth a taste test to see !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Times Roman

over 50% of your protein intake is from whey protein powder. over the long haul, this seems excessive. True, you will be getting the protein aspect from doing so, but you will also be losing out on all the other nutritive values you would ordinarily get if instead you were to eat whole foods. Gotcha Roman, makes sense man. I'll try other sources of protein. Whey just seems easy, but true that it isn't as nutritive, and at 40, everything bad gets amplified, so better to go the nutritive route anyway. I'll go for it and let you know if I feel better as a result.

Serious lack of produce. On your off day, you reference veggies, but nothing during the rest of the week, except a green garden salad which is nutritionally poor in most cases (lettuce based, right?)

I don't see much fiber going on. True, nuts have a small amount. But that's it besides a small green salad! OK, I see your point again; this diet has worked well in the past, but I haven't gone on a keto diet since turning 40, so I'll modify it some as long as I don't consume too many carbs. They're definitely cutting killers after 40...

A couple of things you can do to immediately improve your nutrition profile

get off the whey protein. you are using that as your main staple for a source of protein. A better way would be liquid egg whites. Once 16 fluid oz box from Costco has about 50 grams of protein. No fat. No cholesterol. No carbs. You can use this as the liquid in any blender drink you make. For example, my post workout shake was 24ounces of whole apples (yes, core and all, but I'm not hardcore, so I took the stem off) and a 16oz box of liquid egg whites. Prior to taking, about a 5 gram scoop of psyllium husk fiber. This absorbs moisture and expands to 10x it's volume, improving your output so that it isn't runny. Gotcha, I'll give it shot, thanks Roman!


This is the macro profile of what I just described:
Attachment 152307

Other times, I'll put in the blender a Costco 12.5oz can of chicken breast. Almost zero fat and zero carbs. This too comes to about 50 grams of protein. And it's whole food. Not a powdered milk by product.

Here is the macro profile of that. notice no carbs, and only a hint of fat
Attachment 152306

Great spreadsheet, any chance you'd be willing to share? :-)

Both the chicken and the liquid egg whites comes from Costco. The cost of protein from the liquid egg whites comes to about 3 cents per gram, and the chicken comes to something like 4 cents per gram of protein.

So, in my humble opinion, you are excessively relying on whey protein powder when there are other better whole food options available
and, you need to eat more solid green veggies and other brightly colored veggies. Don't bother with the canned corn. And the garden salads are a thing where you feel good by eating them because you think they are really nutritious for you, but you are mostly fooling yourself. Take that same volume, and eat kale or spinach instead.

Make sense? Yep, makes a lot of sense. I'll incorporate these ideas.

---Roman

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Gotcha on the gear as one gets older and loses tendon and ligament strength; good buddy of mine keeps tearing muscles off the bone with crazy heavy lifts. So just tone it down from what I'm used to, correct?

I definitely see a dip in intensity at the gym, but work harder to fight through it. Some days are great and some just suck, but that's life after 40 for anyone out there paying attention. Yeah, the lifts aren't as intense sometimes, but there are days when I have an amazing workout and it feels awesome, so I look to those days every day.

I do sleep on my side testluva, try not to, but like Roman, I'll get poked if sleep on my back, actually just kicked out to one of the guest bedrooms if I'm snoring at night.

Thanks again to Roman and everyone else!!

Just wanted to drop a note here to say thanks for the egg beaters tip. It's not as horrifying as it sounds. For a post workout shake - 16 oz egg beaters, 8 oz milk, and a peach or other high glycemic fruit really does the trick, and goes down smoother than one might think.

Roman: Whats your opinon on that egg whites need to be cooked to denature avidin, which can lead to biotin deficiency and that the protein content is half due to absorption/assimilation issues?