Delaying Post-Workout Shake to shed fat

Stats:
Age:29
Weight:175lbs
Height:5"9
BodyFat %: 18%
Goals: Gain and KEEP lean muscle, lose 8% body fat over 20 weeks approx. Priority on the Losing Fat.
Cycle: 20 weeks (in week 2 currently) of 500 Test E (every week) + Hcg (500iu per week) + Adex e3d 0.5mg
PCT: PCT of Nolva/Clomid

I was wondering a few things:

1. How long do the "anti-catabolic" properties of Test E only take to kick in? I'm 2 shots in and wonder if I'm somewhat "protected"

2. If I am in fact anti-catabolic at the moment would it make sense to delay the post-workout shake perhaps instead of immediately... have it 1-2 hours later? My reasoning I find that I am in a fat-burning mode right after a work-out and my body is yearning for nourishment, and since my muscles are "safe" then it would seem to be that my fat or my carbs (stomach contents) would get used first.

3. I eat just barely over maintenance but on days I train that would mean I am under maintenance. Would this allow me to shed fat by this logic? What do you suggest? Any studies would also be helpful as I couldn't find any legit ones.

1. The anti-catabolic properties of the Test have already kicked in, most likely not as much as they will have in a few weeks but to some extent they have already. This is due to the fact that your body starts processing the Test the moment it is injected into your body. Since it is a long ester it does take a little longer to process so the first couple weeks you may find your test levels are still ramping up so to speak. But by now there is at least some of that test circulating through your body.

2. There is a lot of debate about this topic so I will just state that this is my opinion and I am not saying I am right, there are other possible hypothesis, I am just saying this is what I believe so take it for what it is. I do not think there is a huge difference at all between taking a PWO shake immediately after or 1 or 2 hours after while on cycle.

If you are not on cycle and lets say my TDEE is 3000 calories. That means if my TDEE were 3000 calories then I will have roughly burned 1000 calories one third of the way through the day. But if I chose not to consume 1000 calories in the first third of the day then I am currently in a calorie deficit. The longer you delay your PWO nutrition the longer you are in a calorie deficit and the larger the deficit would become. This would end up being less catabolic if you were on cycle.

Again, the difference is most likely negligible but there is some food for thought. Over the course of a long cut it might make more of a difference. I doubt it but it might.

3. By that logic if you are ending the day as having eaten less calories than you have burned then you are indeed cutting. I usually play it pretty close to the TDEE and only go around 300 under off cycle but on cycle cuts I increase the deficit to as high as 800 calories depending on my goals and the cycle. 300-500 under TDEE is a typical cut.

Lots of over-thinking here. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just get your calories and macros in and spread it out through the day. Timing is not relevant.

This is the wrong section by the way.

^ I would disagree timing is irrelevant. Lots of good New studies out. Since I've started carb backloading and doing late day workouts I've noticed dramatic differences, both in workouts and body composition

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Originally Posted by Machdiesel

^ I would disagree timing is irrelevant. Lots of good New studies out. Since I've started carb backloading and doing late day workouts I've noticed dramatic differences, both in workouts and body composition

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I understand. Many will disagree.

You can eat 2000 calories with a high sense of timing, and burn X amount of calories.

You can also eat 2000 calories with no sense of timing, and burn X amount of calories.

A calorie burned is a calorie burned. Same goes for intake. Both scenarios will yield the same 'end of day' result. The only relevance to timing is with respect to your energy levels, where your training and/or endurance may suffer; which would then yield lessor results. I have yet to see a study impactful enough to change my mind.

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Originally Posted by austinite

This is the wrong section by the way.

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I thought this was the wrong section but I posted here because it pertained specifically to my test cycle and whether the issue at hand would hinder/advance my goals. I will make sure to post in the right section next time. ;)

I will pay special attention to my macros and try not to overthink it. You made a very good point in regards to energy levels and endurance, I never considered that. I wish someone would post a study as my expert googling skills are coming up short. I've found similar topics but not quite what I am looking for.

The main thing I am concerned about is the period of "fat-burning" mode RIGHT after a long workout. In that respect, if I have a post-workout shake IMMEDIATELY after then that "mode" stops and begins the muscle re-building process. Does that make any sense lol?

Thanks for your responses!

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Originally Posted by Machdiesel

^ I would disagree timing is irrelevant. Lots of good New studies out. Since I've started carb backloading and doing late day workouts I've noticed dramatic differences, both in workouts and body composition

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Timing is irrelevant bc it's solely up to the individual in question. I can train fasted or completely full, take a PWO shake right after or wait a few hours to eat, I can eat once a day or 8x a day and nothing makes much of a difference. Some cannot train fasted while others can. Some cannot train on a full stomach where others must. Hence the irrelevant statement.

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Originally Posted by austinite

Lots of over-thinking here. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just get your calories and macros in and spread it out through the day. Timing is not relevant.

This is the wrong section by the way.

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I agree, it is overthinking it. I've never been that guy to rush the PWO shake. I always end up eating within an hour or two though and that seems to work fine for me.

I am the type to overthink everything though. I wouldn't worry about it, the differences in metabolism after a workout are negligible from one hour to the next so listen to doc on this one.

If you wanna rush that PWO nutrition, and some swear by it (mostly old school guys that I've seen), go for it, no harm done. It's not like I'm a pro anyway so I'm allowed error.

Oh and for your studies just start with google scholar, it's a lot more user friendly than most databases and closed web sources.

lol just lol

Did you guys see the recent study about this. It isn't by any means proving much other than what it is showing specifically. But But looked at the difference between consuming post work out shake immediately after vs 6 hours later, comparing a non trained group of individuals vs a trained group of indiviudals. It found no difference in the timing with the non trained group but in the trained group there was a difference in I think it was nitrogen balance is what they were measuring. Would have to look it up for specifics. But there might be some evidence that this should be looked into more especially since a lot of studies we have are done on say obese females for instance, or they are measuring something after the individuals ahve been fasting for something like 20 hours or something else that would make something look more effective.(lots of somethings)

I'll be honest though, I have gone through training periods where I didn't consume anything post training and I didn't even have a protein shake but maybe a hemp protein once or twice a week, and I seemed to do fine, my protein intake was great of course though.

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Originally Posted by austinite

Lots of over-thinking here. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just get your calories and macros in and spread it out through the day. Timing is not relevant.

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I agree.

Sometimes it's just a matter of scheduling and being able to get the calories in. I ideally like to suck down a pre made shake after the gym and then eat an hour or so later...... I just tend to be less hungry for the rest of the day but that's just me. I think it's wise to try a variety of ways and find what works best for the individual.

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Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Sometimes it's just a matter of scheduling and being able to get the calories in. I ideally like to suck down a pre made shake after the gym and then eat an hour or so later...... I just tend to be less hungry for the rest of the day but that's just me. I think it's wise to try a variety of ways and find what works best for the individual.

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I do this same thing just for the sole purpose of having energy in the gym usually. If I am on a cut I might skip the shake before though.

Will you be able to utilize the HGH production your body is fluctuating with after a workout if you take your shake within 45 minutes? I would have chosen a within 60 mintues if there was one..

I think physiological levels of hormones are irrelevant. The fact carbs may blunt GH will have no effect. I personally put all my carbs PWO, and the hours after. I train at 5pm so all my carbs are from about 6-10. On my non workout days I'm Basically zero carb, on workout days I slam a ton of carbs. You could talk about insulin response, circadian rhythm, non insulin mediated glucose transport, resistance training and glut 4 transport, and lastly anecdotal evidence. There's also the Idea of how food effects your workouts. Eating carbs 1 hour before your workout is a horrible idea , yet many people preach big pre workout meals

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Originally Posted by Machdiesel

I think physiological levels of hormones are irrelevant. The fact carbs may blunt GH will have no effect. I personally put all my carbs PWO, and the hours after. I train at 5pm so all my carbs are from about 6-10. On my non workout days I'm Basically zero carb, on workout days I slam a ton of carbs. You could talk about insulin response, circadian rhythm, non insulin mediated glucose transport, resistance training and glut 4 transport, and lastly anecdotal evidence. There's also the Idea of how food effects your workouts. Eating carbs 1 hour before your workout is a horrible idea , yet many people preach big pre workout meals

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I've read CBL, and followed it as well, had to modify it tremendously for fat loss obviously as it is more for two other things. I personally think it is a decent approach to maintenance, strength accumulation and building mass. But I've been doing things differently lately, and eating carbs 1 hour before workout isn't necessarily a bad idea like he says it is. Lately I will have my dinner which will include both low and high gi carbs. Sometimes I'll have extra high GI carbs after as well, I'll usually train within a couple hours, but I do sip a carb/leucine combo during training. Training sessions have been great lately. I just think that horrible idea statement is taking things too far. Maybe not a good idea for CBL, but for all other diets?

^^ with myself and others, outside of CBL, A Large meal before training that includes carbs decreases performance . Just my observation with myself and others. I actually did this diet before CBL, but CBL brought the science/studies to my attention. If it works for you that's awesome, if it ain't broke don't fix it. But for most its a bad idea and will have a negative impact on training. Also I don't agree with everything kiefer says, you'll notice I said I don't subscribe to the theory about physiological GH levels make a difference and you should time food to optimize GH. Farah says this also, and IMO it's one of the dumbest theories there is

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Originally Posted by Docd187123

Timing is irrelevant bc it's solely up to the individual in question. I can train fasted or completely full, take a PWO shake right after or wait a few hours to eat, I can eat once a day or 8x a day and nothing makes much of a difference. Some cannot train fasted while others can. Some cannot train on a full stomach where others must. Hence the irrelevant statement.

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So your saying its EXTRMELY Relevent, just different for every individual

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Originally Posted by Machdiesel

^^ with myself and others, outside of CBL, A Large meal before training that includes carbs decreases performance . Just my observation with myself and others. I actually did this diet before CBL, but CBL brought the science/studies to my attention. If it works for you that's awesome, if it ain't broke don't fix it. But for most its a bad idea and will have a negative impact on training. Also I don't agree with everything kiefer says, you'll notice I said I don't subscribe to the theory about physiological GH levels make a difference and you should time food to optimize GH. Farah says this also, and IMO it's one of the dumbest theories there is

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Seems situational. If say the person who isn't following CBL hasn't had much in the way of glycogen replenishment, a meal with carbs prior training should increase performance. A lot of people's diets don't have massive amounts of carbs in them like CBL provides, I mean it is enough to get you through a carbless day or so and a training session with plenty of glycogen, but for someone else's protocol that might not be the case. Ever heard of carbless post work out? I haven't ever practiced it, but it has similarities to CBL in principle, but basis the carbless post work out on studies showing increased MPS, but it is essential to get carbs in prior to training with this protocol.

It seems to optimize one thing, you have to sacrifice another, so I doubt we'll ever find "the best way". I sometimes find what's best for me and assume it's how jts works for everyone, and that's just not the case. I will say in my experience most can't handle moderate/large loads prior to training, but everyone is different. I've tried doing AM workouts when cutting, and doing only whey post workout, and no carbs all day. Only carbs were the night before a workout and that went very well. That's Similiar to what you said about carbs pre workout when glycogen depleted. There's a new study out on kiefers website about how carb timing effects fat loss in ISO caloric diets, and the "carbs at night only" had a better result

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Originally Posted by Machdiesel

So your saying its EXTRMELY Relevent, just different for every individual

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Not exactly bc even then the differences are so minor it's not worth fretting over.

Im a big fan of CBL, not only for gym performance but how I feel overall. If I have a big bowl of oatmeal at breakfast I'm destroyed. Im sluggish, tired, then a few hours later all I can think about is eating again. If I skip carbs I'm energized and feel good. That's just me , maybe I'm "carb sensative"
Or have an insulin issue, who knows. It makes a big difference for
Me

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Originally Posted by austinite

I understand. Many will disagree.

You can eat 2000 calories with a high sense of timing, and burn X amount of calories.

You can also eat 2000 calories with no sense of timing, and burn X amount of calories.

A calorie burned is a calorie burned. Same goes for intake. Both scenarios will yield the same 'end of day' result. The only relevance to timing is with respect to your energy levels, where your training and/or endurance may suffer; which would then yield lessor results. I have yet to see a study impactful enough to change my mind.

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so ur saying if my macro's are 3000cal and I want to cut up and I drop my calories down to 2500. if I wake up and don't eat anything all day and 8pm rolls around and I eat 2500 calories in one sitting I will be still cutting weight?

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Originally Posted by tice1212

so ur saying if my macro's are 3000cal and I want to cut up and I drop my calories down to 2500. if I wake up and don't eat anything all day and 8pm rolls around and I eat 2500 calories in one sitting I will be still cutting weight?

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Correct. Law of thermodynamics.

It's not that simple. To take an extreme situation, take the above scenario of 2500 calories and inject insulin, you'll STORE more bodyfat then if you didn't. If after you workout you store more glycogen, in turn lowering blood sugar quicker, there's a different response. There are studies that show carbohydrate timing in ISO caloric diets change the rate of fat loss. This means 2 groups, eating the exact same thing every day had a differnt end result due to the timing of carbohydrate consumption.

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Originally Posted by austinite

I understand. Many will disagree.

You can eat 2000 calories with a high sense of timing, and burn X amount of calories.

You can also eat 2000 calories with no sense of timing, and burn X amount of calories.

A calorie burned is a calorie burned. Same goes for intake. Both scenarios will yield the same 'end of day' result. The only relevance to timing is with respect to your energy levels, where your training and/or endurance may suffer; which would then yield lessor results. I have yet to see a study impactful enough to change my mind.

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So according to you keeping calories constant, a person who decides to inject 500mg of testosterone, and take 40mg of dbol won't gain Weignt . This is an extreme case or changing your bodies physiology/hormones that alter what they do with those calories. Same goes for timing to a lesser extent. People see calories out as this finite number that is just energy burned. Your body is more complex then that. Now we may be talking about very small differencs, but I think timing can A. Enhance performance and B. Allow for optimal nutrient portioning and show A better end result in terms of body composition

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Originally Posted by Machdiesel

It's not that simple. To take an extreme situation, take the above scenario of 2500 calories and inject insulin, you'll STORE more bodyfat then if you didn't. If after you workout you store more glycogen, in turn lowering blood sugar quicker, there's a different response. There are studies that show carbohydrate timing in ISO caloric diets change the rate of fat loss. This means 2 groups, eating the exact same thing every day had a differnt end result due to the timing of carbohydrate consumption.

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Can you post these studies?

The question at hand made no reference to injecting insulin. But to play along, yes you'd store more bodyfat In your example BUT what about the other 22-23hrs of the day? You'd already have burned stored body fat the entire day bc you didn't eat thus when you ate and injected the insulin you'd just be adding back some of what your burned. Caloric deficit means your still lose weight

I used it as an example showing calories in/calories out isn't a basic mathematical equation. Hormones play a huge role, and I believe manipulating carbohydrate alters your hormonal response thus netting a differnt result. I have the studies somewhere I'll find them . One was In the journal of obesity, one was out of Israel, and one I have the abstract just need to dig it up

Journal References:
S. Sofer, A. Eliraz, S. Kaplan, H. Voet, G. Fink, T. Kima, Z. Madar. Changes in daily leptin, ghrelin and adiponectin profiles following a diet with carbohydrates eaten at dinner in obese subjects. Nutrition, Metabolism and Cardiovascular Diseases, 2012; DOI: 10.1016/j.numecd.2012.04.008

Sigal Sofer, Abraham Eliraz, Sara Kaplan, Hillary Voet, Gershon Fink, Tzadok Kima, Zecharia Madar. Greater Weight Loss and Hormonal Changes After 6 Months Diet With Carbohydrates Eaten Mostly at Dinner. Obesity, 2011; 19 (10): 2006 DOI: 10.1038/oby.2011.48

Eating carbohydrate mostly at lunch and protein m... [Eur J Nutr. 2014] - PubMed - NCBI

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Originally Posted by austinite

I understand. Many will disagree.

You can eat 2000 calories with a high sense of timing, and burn X amount of calories.

You can also eat 2000 calories with no sense of timing, and burn X amount of calories.

A calorie burned is a calorie burned. Same goes for intake. Both scenarios will yield the same 'end of day' result. The only relevance to timing is with respect to your energy levels, where your training and/or endurance may suffer; which would then yield lessor results. I have yet to see a study impactful enough to change my mind.

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Here's a real world example. I used to have high blood sugar, fasted 120 and a1c 6.0. Since then I've switched to a back loading approach. Post Workout I consume 50g of whey and 50g of pure dextrose. If I take my blood sugar every 30 minutes it never goes over 110, yet if I went into labcorp at 9am and took a glucose tolerance test which I believe is 75g of carbs I'd fail. I now have normal blood sugar levels

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Originally Posted by davidtheman100

Will you be able to utilize the HGH production your body is fluctuating with after a workout if you take your shake within 45 minutes? I would have chosen a within 60 mintues if there was one..

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I do this, following George Farah advice, he claims IGF1 rise post workout and if you consume carbs at that time you will blunt this IGF1 peak.

Immediately post workout I take BCAA peptides (needs to be easily absorved), sometimes mid training, and only have my dinner an hour later.

^ studies have repeatedly shown physiological rises in GH and testosterone have no impact on body composition. Farah is an idiot who feeds his clients massive amounts of drugs then gives bs advice to nattys. Studies however do show carbs + protein is slightly better then protein alone for MPS. Studies also show glycogen replenishment is better within 30 minutes post workout. Also there's the cortisol blunting aspect but don't have the studies, id have the find them. I could go on. I agree the science isn't all in favor of this method,and science will never have a 100% answer , but at the very least we can say with 100% it will not hurt you, and seems it may help

Bigger picture a post workout meal beats a shake any day.
Shakes are not food.
Large amounts of protein cannot be processed and excess will soon find it's way to the sewer.

It all comes down to your macros, calories in and calories out. THOUGH I did find that skipping my first meal of the day breakfast, tend to help me eat alot less and lose more weight that way. Intermittent fasting, look it up!