SCUBA Diving-AAS-Nitrogen Retention-Deca-First cycle

**gorog25** · 09-10-2014, 06:02 AM

Hello Guys,
Please I would like reply only from knowledgeable members.
I need a little explanation about Nitrogen retention caused by Deca . I still planning my firs cycle and Test-e with Deca is a good option, however I read about nitrogen retention and I need to understand it before I decide. As a SCUBA diver nitrogen retention could be a big issue for me.
Those, who’s not familiar with SCUBA diving. I am going to write down the issue with nitrogen briefly.
Divers breathe either compressed air or enriched air. Compressed air, actually 21% oxygen and 98% nitrogen. Enriched air is depends on the specific mixture, but the amount of nitrogen can be reduced for safety. I licensed up to 40% oxygen.
When divers breathe under pressure, more nitrogen from air goes into solution in body tissues through blood, actually nitrogen gas is physiologically inert and is therefore a concern.
Different tissues absorb or release nitrogen at different rates. Given enough time at depth, the body saturates by reaching equilibrium, meaning it has absorbed all the nitrogen possible at that pressure.
Luckily all this including ascent rate, surface time calculated by computers based on decompression models, but those models based on resources with humans not on AAS and off course no nitrogen retention involved.
OK, upon ascent the nitrogen pressure is higher than surrounding pressure. With higher tissue pressure, nitrogen pressure in blood exceeds pressure in alveolar air. Nitrogen dissolves from blood and exhaled. Therefore blood tissue pressure lovers, so nitrogen dissolves from tissues in to blood.
So, if the difference between surrounding pressure and tissue pressure is within limits, the nitrogen dissolves harmlessly out of the body.

Here is the risky bit.
Some nitrogen dissolves into microscopic gas pockets in the body and from tiny bubbles that are trapped by the pulmonary capillaries in the lungs. These than diffuse harmlessly into alveolar air, but if tissue pressure exceeds surrounding pressure excessively, nitrogen comes out of solution faster than the body can eliminate it harmlessly. Small bubbles become large bubbles. Large bubbles can cause decompression sickness, lung over expansion.

Ok that was the info from my side. All this based on people not on AAS and no nitrogen retention involved. I have no idea how should I plan my dives including safety stops surface time and ascent rates? Is it possible to know a percentage rate of nitrogen retention compering a person not on AAS with a person on AAS. It is depends on person to person? Should I forget Deca and Diving and do test-e only?
My cycle would be
Week 1-14 3x250mg/week Test-e
Week 1-12 4x100mg/week Deca
Week 1-16 2x250iu/week HCG
Week 1-16 7x20mg/week Nolva
PCT start on week 18 and have not planned yet.
Also thinking an incrementing clen cycle, but not sure at what stage to start.

I would be happy to receive feedback about my cycle too, but the biggest concern is the nitrogen retention.

**Times Roman** · 09-10-2014, 07:49 AM

Mate,

I'm certified NAUI for 37 years. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

How many tanks are you planning on using in a day?

Most sport divers only use one.

If this is you, then don't sweat it.

You are describing nitrogen narcosis, and results from improper decompression techniques, and really only applies to those that use multiple bottles same day/dive.

**Deal Me In** · 09-10-2014, 11:22 AM

It sounds like you are a rec diver. If you ever decide to take a decompression procedure course you will begin to understand how conservative the rec dive tables are. They assume someone in horrible shape. As a rec diver you should never be below 30m so narcosis should never be a problem. I've never had above 40m. And if you stay within the tables or your computer you have no threat of getting bent.

Relax and enjoy your dive. Take some good pictures. Enjoy the beautiful weather.

**gorog25** · 09-10-2014, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

Mate,

I'm certified NAUI for 37 years. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

How many tanks are you planning on using in a day?

Most sport divers only use one.

If this is you, then don't sweat it.

You are describing nitrogen narcosis, and results from improper decompression techniques, and really only applies to those that use multiple bottles same day/dive.

When we ascend from a dive we keep a constant ascend rate I think NAUI says 10m/min (I am not sure) PADI says 18m/min. this both considered safe rate so divers can release nitrogen with controlled ascent without a problem. Even If the body retains the nitrogen it should not be a problem, but If we plan repetitive dives we still have to count with nitrogen from the first dive. So we can figure out the length of the second or third dive. So how I can figure out how many nitrogen i have in my body? Dive tables are useless even tec tables, if i do not know how should I count with nitrogen. when i am out to diving usually it is 3-4 dives a day and I using two cylinders on each dive and yes we do make deeper than 50m sometimes.

**gorog25** · 09-10-2014, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Deal Me In

It sounds like you are a rec diver. If you ever decide to take a decompression procedure course you will begin to understand how conservative the rec dive tables are. They assume someone in horrible shape. As a rec diver you should never be below 30m so narcosis should never be a problem. I've never had above 40m. And if you stay within the tables or your computer you have no threat of getting bent.

Relax and enjoy your dive. Take some good pictures. Enjoy the beautiful weather.

I know abut decompression. but as I mentioned Roman's reply I do not know how to count with nitrogen how much would be my surface time, how many extra deco needed if my body retains the nitrogen. No dive table for this situation. I really need to do this before I enter into a cave

**Deal Me In** · 09-10-2014, 06:06 PM

What TR was saying is there is not a significant increase in nitrogen to effect the dive tables. If you are doing decompressing and overhead diving, you have been diving for years. If you're that concerned about it, skip the diving till you're off or skip the Deca . I'm not a doctor but I don't believe there will be any problems.

That being said, you can't get into an overhead environment with gear fear. It's a recipe for disaster. If you don't trust your computer or the tables, stay out the caves. Do some rec diving or some hunting.

**Bonaparte** · 09-10-2014, 06:22 PM

Pretty sure that the nitrogen retention from anabolics has nothing to do with inhaled nitrogen while diving. It is merely a marker of anabolism, since nitrogen retained means that protein is being synthesized into muscle rather than excreted. The nitrogen is being stored in the form of muscle proteins, not free/dissolved nitrogen gas.

**Deal Me In** · 09-10-2014, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

Pretty sure that the nitrogen retention from anabolics has nothing to do with inhaled nitrogen while diving. It is merely a marker of anabolism, since nitrogen retained means that protein is being synthesized into muscle rather than excreted. The nitrogen is being stored in the form of muscle proteins, not free/dissolved nitrogen gas.

And there you go.

Also, if you're that worried about it, just use air for your travel gas and heliox for your bottom gas. Then add an extra 10 minutes of deco at 80%. But as long as you stay within the tables or don't bend your computer you'll be fine.

**Times Roman** · 09-10-2014, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by gorog25

When we ascend from a dive we keep a constant ascend rate I think NAUI says 10m/min (I am not sure) PADI says 18m/min. this both considered safe rate so divers can release nitrogen with controlled ascent without a problem. Even If the body retains the nitrogen it should not be a problem, but If we plan repetitive dives we still have to count with nitrogen from the first dive. So we can figure out the length of the second or third dive. So how I can figure out how many nitrogen i have in my body? Dive tables are useless even tec tables, if i do not know how should I count with nitrogen. when i am out to diving usually it is 3-4 dives a day and I using two cylinders on each dive and yes we do make deeper than 50m sometimes.

Originally Posted by Deal Me In

It sounds like you are a rec diver. If you ever decide to take a decompression procedure course you will begin to understand how conservative the rec dive tables are. They assume someone in horrible shape. As a rec diver you should never be below 30m so narcosis should never be a problem. I've never had above 40m. And if you stay within the tables or your computer you have no threat of getting bent.

Relax and enjoy your dive. Take some good pictures. Enjoy the beautiful weather.

Originally Posted by gorog25

I know abut decompression. but as I mentioned Roman's reply I do not know how to count with nitrogen how much would be my surface time, how many extra deco needed if my body retains the nitrogen. No dive table for this situation. I really need to do this before I enter into a cave

The difference between old school and new school is all these tables. Yeah, we had tables. But there are also rules of thumb that us old bulls live by that work so you don't have to think

1) One 80cf tank doesn't hold enough nitrogen to get you into trouble, so it doesn't matter how deep you dive on a single tank for the day. Nitrogen absorption is a function of time and pressure. Sure, the deeper you dive the more pressure, but also because of that pressure, you are breathing compressed air, and the deeper you go, the quicker you use up your tank. It don't matter!

2) Decompression rates. More tables to confuse. Simple rule of thumb that works perfectly every time. Never ascend faster than the air bubbles you are exhaling. Now you can forget about all the fancy tables and just enjoy the dive.

Cheers!
---Roman

**mackbutter** · 09-10-2014, 10:17 PM

I'm a padi instructor ( for a brief time yrs back) and this was never an issue. Dive computers r conservative . I'm quite sure that , in some degree , a relatable issue would have come up in my training. If u want u could add a couple minutes on yur deco to give u more peace of mind. If you r stressed over it in a cave dive that can really screw up the dive. Have fun.

**Times Roman** · 09-10-2014, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by mackbutter

I'm a padi instructor ( for a brief time yrs back) and this was never an issue. Dive computers r conservative . I'm quite sure that , in some degree , a relatable issue would have come up in my training. If u want u could add a couple minutes on yur deco to give u more peace of mind. If you r stressed over it in a cave dive that can really screw up the dive. Have fun.

dive computers? wtf?

when I started, we had to corn starch our suits just to get them on. then they came out with Nylon 1.

I bet many of you have dry suits?

when I dove, it was off the coast of northern California, where the average water temp was 45. you get in the water, and those first few moments would tighten your shit right up. we held our breath, no need for any fancy tank. abs were on the bottom, visibility was something like three for four feet, and we'd kick down until we could see the bottom.

so now you have computers doing all your thinking, huh?

**gorog25** · 09-11-2014, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Deal Me In

What TR was saying is there is not a significant increase in nitrogen to effect the dive tables. If you are doing decompressing and overhead diving, you have been diving for years. If you're that concerned about it, skip the diving till you're off or skip the Deca . I'm not a doctor but I don't believe there will be any problems.

That being said, you can't get into an overhead environment with gear fear. It's a recipe for disaster. If you don't trust your computer or the tables, stay out the caves. Do some rec diving or some hunting.

Well I have no fear at all. I just do not know anything about nitrogen retention. I just wanted to put it right and know if it has any affect when diving, but look like there are divers here and no one mentioned any issues.
So I am reassured.

**gorog25** · 09-11-2014, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

Pretty sure that the nitrogen retention from anabolics has nothing to do with inhaled nitrogen while diving. It is merely a marker of anabolism, since nitrogen retained means that protein is being synthesized into muscle rather than excreted. The nitrogen is being stored in the form of muscle proteins, not free/dissolved nitrogen gas.

Thank you. That was the explanation I wanted

**gorog25** · 09-11-2014, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

dive computers? wtf?

when I started, we had to corn starch our suits just to get them on. then they came out with Nylon 1.

I bet many of you have dry suits?

when I dove, it was off the coast of northern California, where the average water temp was 45. you get in the water, and those first few moments would tighten your shit right up. we held our breath, no need for any fancy tank. abs were on the bottom, visibility was something like three for four feet, and we'd kick down until we could see the bottom.

so now you have computers doing all your thinking, huh?

You say huh for the computers?? I say huh. I cannot imagine diving that temp without my drysuit. Oh my balls start to shrinking that is mad. I love diving but that temp without drysuit is mad. I am in the UK and drysuit is the basic. Computers just make life easier like satnavs, but I would bet on it that you do not use satnavs. Do you?

Old bulls do not like new things

Like my father

**gorog25** · 09-11-2014, 11:59 AM

Thank you guys all the info I am appreciate that.

**mackbutter** · 09-11-2014, 04:01 PM

For most of my dives I was around tropical islands with no need for a wetsuit. Like Thailand, Philippines, Burma...
I feel a bit sad for folks who freeze their butts off . Ive done it and would hate to do it again.
As far as dive computers..... diving without em now is like buying a newspaper.....u can , but why would anyone?

**Times Roman** · 09-11-2014, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by gorog25

You say huh for the computers?? I say huh. I cannot imagine diving that temp without my drysuit. Oh my balls start to shrinking that is mad. I love diving but that temp without drysuit is mad. I am in the UK and drysuit is the basic. Computers just make life easier like satnavs, but I would bet on it that you do not use satnavs. Do you?

Old bulls do not like new things

Like my father

when I dove actively, our club belonged to an association, and members from other clubs were always welcome. We would even put up guests in our house and feed them, although that was seldom.

First, they would tell their stories about all these great dives and what a great diver they are. Most are attracted by the prospect of obtaining red abalone, only found off the coast of the pacific north west. We would smile as they tell their stories and shake our heads up and down in all the right places to signify respect.

Then came the dive. If you have never dove for red abalone, you are in for a treat. Beach access is difficult. Rocky cliffs and long walks hauling gear, sometimes more than a mile. Beaches are typically rocky, with rotting kelp washed ashore. Most days are overcast and windy. Many of our guests would be shocked how long they had to haul their gear. Note that when we walk, suits are on, and your weight belt, matt, fins, and everything else, You carry! Freaking hot by the time you hit the water. Kick out hundreds of feet to get past all the large rocks that poke out of the water. Find a kelp bed, and tie off your matt on the kelp. Grab your ab iron, and you kick down to the bottom. You don't know how deep it is, because you cant see the bottom. Visibility is usually three or four feet, and when you kick down, you put your ab iron out in front of you so you don't swim into a rock. Once on the bottom, you only have so much time before you need more air, so you have to work quick. Locating an ab is extremely difficult for those not accustomed to the task, as the shell, like the rocks around it, are covered with algae and it blends in perfectly. Abs live deep in crevesces, so you are reaching your hand into cracks at your own risk. The problem is, every once in a while, you will reach in and a Morray Eel will try to bite you. It's like a carnivorous sea snake (eel) with three inch fangs (teeth). And they are aggressive and will come after you. Usually, the bottom is somewhere between twenty and thirty feet, so for me, I usually had maybe thirty seconds of bottom time before I had to come up. Yes, the water is cold! But you just take a leek in your suit to warm things up. You are only cold for a few moments until that layer of water trapped between you and the suit warms up, and then you are g2g.

No tanks! They are illegal when diving for ab. This is a man's sport. Our guests would dive down a few times, hit bottom, and the need for air would force them up almost immediately. Up and down they'd go a few times, and then, sure enough, back to the shore. It's funny how their impressive stories would always end when we would come back with our limits, and almost every guest didn't get shit.

And I hate to say this, but the women in our club stuck to spear fishing with tanks. They just didn't have what it takes to go get the abs.

So, mate. Don't feel bad because all you know how to do is the easy diving. it takes balls and a beast mentality to dive in northern cali for ab.

Cheers
---Roman

**Deal Me In** · 09-11-2014, 11:43 PM

I just laugh when I hear story's like that. I dive because I enjoy and I do wreck diving because I enjoy the challenge and history I can learn. But, I always dive for fun first. I had the advantage of living in Florida and 6 months a year never even wore a wetsuit. It would get to cold to dive for about 2 months. By too cold I mean I would be cold wearing my 3mm suit. If I got cold, I didn't dive till it warmed up.

I understand why you did what you did TR but it's not for me. I have thousands of dollars invested in my dive gear and years of training. But it has to be fun and comfortable. I would never spend money to be miserable.

I will freely admit that I was spoiled because I lived in Florida. We never really had long stretches when we couldn't dive. Beautiful weather. Calm seas. Nice slow current to drift dive. Hell, there were days we wouldn't even dive because the vis was only 20 feet. Wasn't worth it. We could come back next week.

**Deal Me In** · 09-11-2014, 11:45 PM

Now I live in SoCal and I only dive on vacation. I've been to the beach here once and I can't believe people actually get in the water. What's it like below the thermocline?

**Times Roman** · 09-12-2014, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Deal Me In

I just laugh when I hear story's like that. I dive because I enjoy and I do wreck diving because I enjoy the challenge and history I can learn. But, I always dive for fun first. I had the advantage of living in Florida and 6 months a year never even wore a wetsuit. It would get to cold to dive for about 2 months. By too cold I mean I would be cold wearing my 3mm suit. If I got cold, I didn't dive till it warmed up.

I understand why you did what you did TR but it's not for me. I have thousands of dollars invested in my dive gear and years of training. But it has to be fun and comfortable. I would never spend money to be miserable.

I will freely admit that I was spoiled because I lived in Florida. We never really had long stretches when we couldn't dive. Beautiful weather. Calm seas. Nice slow current to drift dive. Hell, there were days we wouldn't even dive because the vis was only 20 feet. Wasn't worth it. We could come back next week.

It's all how you look at it mate. I have fond memories growing up only 8 years old and eating fresh abalone on the beach. Damn that was good. And I always used to ask my dad when can I dive for abalone? he said when I was old and strong enough. Men dove, women and children stayed behind on the beach. So for my fifteenth birthday, "dive lessons". Six weeks. It was a rite of passage, and I was proud because of it.

Diving is a competitive endeavor. Not all men are physically capable of getting abalone. In fact, few are. It makes you stand out from the rest. In highschool, there were a few others that dove, but when I told them I held my breath, kicked down twenty or thirty feet, and got abalone, they were impressed. Mostly they just tank dove, which any one can do. There is no physical challenge to tank diving.

So let me ask you. why do we go to the gym? Why do we endure the pain? Why do we endure the dieting and the injuries? To a certain respect, we do it because others cannot do it. It sets us apart from the others. We stand out. We take the pain because we can.

You have to have grit to be able to ab dive. A certain toughness.

And to be honest, I wouldn't have a clue what a dive computer is or is used for. Unless you are a commercial diver or deep sea diver, mixing gases, decompressing over long periods of time?

Just give me a knife and a depth gauge, and I'm good.

**Cravenmorehead** · 09-12-2014, 10:09 AM

You can get bent diving the most conservative of profiles. Hydration is a major factor. If you don't believe me talk to some people that run the deco chambers. Always have DAN insurance.

**gorog25** · 09-12-2014, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Cravenmorehead

You can get bent diving the most conservative of profiles. Hydration is a major factor. If you don't believe me talk to some people that run the deco chambers. Always have DAN insurance.

Yeh, insurance sorted. Here in the Uk it is required by law I must have liability to teach and accident too. My medical due next month so i might discuss it with my doctor, but actually Bonaparte's and mackbutter's response was pretty enough for me. i am completely reassured

**Times Roman** · 09-13-2014, 10:59 AM

Story time.

I was a newb diver, maybe 16 or 17 at the time. Mask was foggy and I was on the surface, tangled in the kelp beds like usual, resting on my mat. I feel something tugging on my fin, so I look around to see what it was. Again, my mask was foggy, but I did see. It looked like a friggin moray eel chewing on my fin! I'm like "holy shit!!" Those bastards are scary, and can easily bite big holes in you, with fangs that look scary as shit, and they are plenty aggressive too. So I'm like "fvck this... I'm outta here, and start kicking like a demon back to shore. You have to understand, I was seriously shitting my pants as anyone with any sense knows to stay away from Morray Eels! Later back at the beech, my dad asks what's up. He says he sees me kicking like a bat out of hell back to shore, and we were supposed to stay together (buddy system). So I tell him about the Morray attacking my fin and how I barely got out of there without getting bit. He's like.... Morray Eel? I didn't see a Morray Eel? He goes, I was right there next to you trying to get the kelp untangled from my snorkel, and your fin was in my face, so I was pushing your fin away. I look at his gray glove, and it friggin dawns on me it wasn't an Eel, just my dad's gray glove grabbing at my fin. He just looks at me and starts laughing his ass off. So for the rest of the day, I was the brunt of the jokes from the club. Plus I hadn't gotten any ab yet either, so a double whammy for me......

My dad still likes to tell that story how a big scary eel almost got me one time.....

fawk!

**Times Roman** · 09-13-2014, 11:03 AM

Morray Eels are scary fuggers. A friend of mine went spear fishing one time with tanks. Shot a Morray Eel. steel shaft piercing the eel. but instead of fighting the shaft as most fish would do, the Eel looks him in the eye and starts swimming towards him, knowing the problem wasn't the shaft, but my buddy instead. He had to ditch the spear gun with the Eel attached, else the eel would have bit the fuk out of him.

**Times Roman** · 09-13-2014, 11:06 AM

**Times Roman** · 09-13-2014, 11:07 AM

**Times Roman** · 09-13-2014, 11:09 AM

**Times Roman** · 09-13-2014, 11:09 AM

ok, maybe not 3" fangs, but damn!

**Deal Me In** · 09-13-2014, 01:13 PM

I've had hundreds of dives and I've never seen one of these free swimming. I've seen tons of them coming out of their holes to look around or grab a fish but I've always wanted to see one free swimming.

In Florida my biggest fear was barracuda. What freaked me out about them was they aren't scared of you. Most fish swim away from you when you get close. My buddy and I came up to do our safety stop and looked around and we were right in the middle of a school of them. And they just stay there and look at you real creepy like. I think we deco'd for about 5 seconds and went straight for the surface. The boat couldn't get there fast enough. I thought for sure we were going to be torn to pieces.

**Times Roman** · 09-13-2014, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Deal Me In

I've had hundreds of dives and I've never seen one of these free swimming. I've seen tons of them coming out of their holes to look around or grab a fish but I've always wanted to see one free swimming.

In Florida my biggest fear was barracuda. What freaked me out about them was they aren't scared of you. Most fish swim away from you when you get close. My buddy and I came up to do our safety stop and looked around and we were right in the middle of a school of them. And they just stay there and look at you real creepy like. I think we deco'd for about 5 seconds and went straight for the surface. The boat couldn't get there fast enough. I thought for sure we were going to be torn to pieces.

neither have I. mostly they just pop out when you start poking around in the crevices with your ab iron. I can't remember why my buddy ended up shooting one. But once he did, it came after him