Blood Work - Mid Cycle - Is my Test Bunk? - Please Help Interpret Values

**Jcz85** · 08-26-2014, 02:49 PM

Took blood work pre cycle. Then again yesterday.

It's the 29th day of my cycle, 500mg testosterone Enanthate per week @ two injection each week (250mg each injection)

I have a feeling this test is weaker than it should be. Please help me interpret these values.

Testosterone (Total): Pre cycle - 13.41 nmol/l
Day 29 - 65.4 nmol/l

Obviously this is much higher. It is above the average range both labs give (32 and 28 are the high end of averages for the two labs)

Shouldn't it be much higher than just double the high end of normal?

The only other things to significantly change are the following:

LH: Pre cycle - 3.55 iu/l
Day 29 - Less than 1 iu/l - below low end of average

FSH: Pre cycle - 5.25 iu/l
Day 29 - 1 iu/l - below low end of average

Estradiol: Pre cycle - 69 pmol/l
Day 29 - 141 pmol/l - approaching maximum end of average range

Anyone who knows what they are talking about, please help me. My doctor does not want to touch this with a 10 ft pole, nor does he have any experience dealing with someone supplementing with test.

Edit***: Free Testosterone values still pending.

**Jcz85** · 08-26-2014, 05:27 PM

Hmm... Was hoping for some help. The low fsh and lh causes me some concern... Perhaps relying on hcg the entire cycle isn't all it's cracked up to be?

**Mr.BB** · 08-26-2014, 05:47 PM

You should not cycle if you dont know that the luteinizig hormones will plump after injecting exogenous testosterone IMO.

Didnt you read the stickies?

It would be easier to have all the BW printout.

**m314** · 08-26-2014, 06:00 PM

Low LH and FSH is normal. Those numbers won't go up until PCT when the exogenous testosterone is out of your system.

Your testosterone might be underdosed. It might not be. Some guys will have total test numbers at the top of the normal range with 100 mg/week. Some need 200 mg/week to get there. Unless you have blood tests from previous cycles, there's no way to know what your number should be at 500 mg/week.

**Jcz85** · 08-26-2014, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.BB

You should not cycle if you dont know that the luteinizig hormones will plump after injecting exogenous testosterone IMO.

Didnt you read the stickies?

It would be easier to have all the BW printout.

Yeah but LH and FSH were the only two I didn't understand...

**Jcz85** · 08-27-2014, 04:13 PM

I like how everyone was like "Blood work! You need blood work!" Then I post before and during numbers and nobody knows what to do with the info..

**< <Samson> >** · 08-27-2014, 04:29 PM

Yes, your test is real - just took me a while to convert Ng to Nmol

In nmol/dL you're right under 2k

A little low IMO - mine was right under 4k when running 750-800mg per week of test e

**Deal Me In** · 08-27-2014, 04:37 PM

I'm not sure what the question is. Your total test went up 5x. Your LH and FSH are going to crash. Personally I would bring the E2 down a little. All of the numbers you have provided indicate the test is real. What is it you would like to know?

Also, blood work is about more than controlling your E2. What does your lipid profile look like. BP? Liver functions? Blood work is used to give a complete picture. You have provided us with just a few numbers. Draw a sharpie through your personal information and upload the actual sheet. You will get more help that way. You provided results that all look normal for a test cycle and you really haven't asked a question. There isn't much to comment on. What is it you would like to know?

**RangerDanger830** · 08-27-2014, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jcz85

Yeah but LH and FSH were the only two I didn't understand...

LH stands for luteinizing hormones and FSH is follicle-stimulating hormones. Your hypothalamus in your brain sends a signal to your pituitary gland which is just below it and tells it to release gonadotropins. Once your pituitary gland gets this signal it releases the gonadotropins, which are your LH and FSH.

LH and FSH are both sent from the pituitary gland at the foot of your brain down to your testes. Once the LH gets to your testes it stimulates leydig cells which results in the production of testosterone . The FSH and testosterone both assist in stimulating sertoli cells in your testes, which tell your testes to make sperm.

There ya go.

**Jcz85** · 08-27-2014, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Deal Me In

I'm not sure what the question is. Your total test went up 5x. Your LH and FSH are going to crash. Personally I would bring the E2 down a little. All of the numbers you have provided indicate the test is real. What is it you would like to know?

Also, blood work is about more than controlling your E2. What does your lipid profile look like. BP? Liver functions? Blood work is used to give a complete picture. You have provided us with just a few numbers. Draw a sharpie through your personal information and upload the actual sheet. You will get more help that way. You provided results that all look normal for a test cycle and you really haven't asked a question. There isn't much to comment on. What is it you would like to know?

Thanks.

I don't think I should go by how much my test increased in relation to my natural value because I had very low levels of test to begin with. I'm paying for super human levels of test, like samson was talking about.

Cholesterol levels are all close to the same values as pre-cycle. Which are well below the high values.

I really just want to know if the stuff is working or potent and what the average person's test levels are when taking test, (ie Samson's comment). Also I want to know if I need to up my Arimidex dose.

When you say bring the E2 down, that means increase the Arimidex?

I'm taking liver care pills and blood pressure I am sure is fine. But I will post all that stuff eventually.

**< <Samson> >** · 08-27-2014, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jcz85

When you say bring the E2 down, that means increase the Arimidex?

Yes & no

This really varies from person to person

Running my E higher seems to work better

Yet, most say drop your e a bit to a lower level

I feel crappier with lower E when running high test(over a g a week) and my libido drops. Yet, I can't manage it while being at higher levels. So, I keep them low with a very strong Ai. This gives me a bit of a benefit, my water retention is out the window.

You are your own science experiment, so whatever you say goes.

**Jcz85** · 08-27-2014, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

Yes & no

This really varies from person to person

Running my E higher seems to work better

Yet, most say drop your e a bit to a lower level

I feel crappier with lower E when running high test(over a g a week) and my libido drops. Yet, I can't manage it while being at higher levels. So, I keep them low with a very strong Ai. This gives me a bit of a benefit, my water retention is out the window.

You are your own science experiment, so whatever you say goes.

So when I add 40mg of dbol (for 25 days) I should definitely double my Arimidex dose? Or is dbol not as androgenic (is that the right term?) as test?

Currently Arimidex is 0.25mg EOD. hCG is 250 IU/wk

**Jcz85** · 08-27-2014, 07:19 PM

Nm. I don't think I will add dbol . I think this test shit has already gotten me stronger than my joints + ligs can handle. Probably would be a waste.

A buddy said tho that you will never gain like you do on your first cycle. Will I still see phenomenal results if I wait to use dbol on my second cycle?

**Jcz85** · 08-28-2014, 08:46 AM

Will I still gain like crazy on my second cycle if I'm using dbol for the first time?

**gold43** · 08-28-2014, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Jcz85

Nm. I don't think I will add dbol . I think this test shit has already gotten me stronger than my joints + ligs can handle. Probably would be a waste.

A buddy said tho that you will never gain like you do on your first cycle. Will I still see phenomenal results if I wait to use dbol on my second cycle?

Would be mostly water weight. You don't want to over do it with strength either. If you don't have a solid frame, your joints and ligs won't be able to handle it. High risk for injury.

**Deal Me In** · 08-28-2014, 10:59 AM

In my opinion E2 is the hardest to control and like Samson said everyone is different. For me, I start to feel like shit if mine gets that high. That's why I said personally I would bring it down some. But that's what works for me. Samson is different. You have to find what works for you and trial and error is really the only way to go.

And, also a personal statement, I don't care for dbol . But I don't care for anything that doesn't allow me to keep the gains I make. Dbol will make you bigger and stronger as long as you are taking it but then will go away as soon as you stop. To me, this is a waste of money and to much strain on your liver.

**Jcz85** · 08-28-2014, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Deal Me In

In my opinion E2 is the hardest to control and like Samson said everyone is different. For me, I start to feel like shit if mine gets that high. That's why I said personally I would bring it down some. But that's what works for me. Samson is different. You have to find what works for you and trial and error is really the only way to go.

And, also a personal statement, I don't care for dbol. But I don't care for anything that doesn't allow me to keep the gains I make. Dbol will make you bigger and stronger as long as you are taking it but then will go away as soon as you stop. To me, this is a waste of money and to much strain on your liver.

What would you suggest instead? Turinabol ?

**Deal Me In** · 08-28-2014, 05:37 PM

I prefer Anavar to Tbol.

**kelkel** · 08-28-2014, 05:49 PM

Probably should have waited until 6 weeks to test, imho.
We all metabolize test differently. What gets you to 2k may get me to 3K, or vice versa.
You need a Sensitive Estrogen Assay. Estradiol is incorrect and not accurate for men, which leads to improper Adex dosing.
Your goal with E2 should be to remain at a normal level. High E2 is what causes a long list of problems for men.
The side effect of keeping E2 in range is higher test.

**Jcz85** · 08-28-2014, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Probably should have waited until 6 weeks to test, imho.
We all metabolize test differently. What gets you to 2k may get me to 3K, or vice versa.
You need a Sensitive Estrogen Assay. Estradiol is incorrect and not accurate for men, which leads to improper Adex dosing.
Your goal with E2 should be to remain at a normal level. High E2 is what causes a long list of problems for men.
The side effect of keeping E2 in range is higher test.

I asked for a sensitive e2 assay.. it says right on the lab request "Estradiol - Sensitive E2 Assay".

I have another lab request. I could always go back in two weeks and demand a sensitive e2 assay. I'm finding out that doctors and nurses and labs don't really give a shit about patients who want to go beyond the bare minimum so I don't have high expectations.

**Jcz85** · 08-28-2014, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Deal Me In

I prefer Anavar to Tbol.

So you don't feel taking dbol first 6 weeks of a test cycle, then being on test for another 8 weeks would help you retain the dbol gains?

**m314** · 08-28-2014, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Jcz85

So you don't feel taking dbol first 6 weeks of a test cycle, then being on test for another 8 weeks would help you retain the dbol gains?

If you're training hard and eating enough, you should keep most of the dbol gains. You'll lose some size, but it's mostly water weight.

Anavar is my favorite oral too. People here say it's weak, but that hasn't been my experience. It just doesn't give you tons of size all at once like dbol.

**kelkel** · 08-28-2014, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jcz85

I asked for a sensitive e2 assay.. it says right on the lab request "Estradiol - Sensitive E2 Assay".

I have another lab request. I could always go back in two weeks and demand a sensitive e2 assay. I'm finding out that doctors and nurses and labs don't really give a shit about patients who want to go beyond the bare minimum so I don't have high expectations.

I actually take the proper labcorp E2 codes with me every time so they don't F it up. Range via labcorp is 3-70 from memory.

**Jcz85** · 08-28-2014, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

I actually take the proper labcorp E2 codes with me every time so they don't F it up. Range via labcorp is 3-70 from memory.

According to lifelabs (canada) E2 = Estradiol = Estrogen....

http://rmalab.com/sites/default/file.../MLHA-2014.pdf

on my form it says Estradiol (Estrogen)

**kelkel** · 08-29-2014, 08:39 AM

Just be sure your test is a Sensitive Estrogen Assay. If not and it's simply estradiol it's geared to women which is not sensitive (accurate) enough for men. This results in improper adex dosing as it reads higher. Crisler, Vergel, all the top guys will tell you this as well.

**Jcz85** · 08-29-2014, 01:24 PM

Dude if I get herpes from an escort I'm blaming your ****ing avatars

**Jcz85** · 08-29-2014, 06:31 PM

Guess I can stop complaining about the test.. Just benched 2 plates for the first time in my life, with my skinny 7" wrists

**Jcz85** · 09-12-2014, 02:44 PM

Estradiol is the hormone in estrogen that we want tested. Estradiol = E2. Sensitive E2 Assay is the same lab code as estradiol. The RN/phlebotomist explained it to me.

**hawk14dl** · 09-12-2014, 09:55 PM

You're cycling and you've never benched 2 plates? What are your stats? (Age, height, weight, body fat, training history)

**Jcz85** · 09-13-2014, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by hawk14dl

You're cycling and you've never benched 2 plates? What are your stats? (Age, height, weight, body fat, training history)

My stats? I'm on my first cycle, test e 500mg/wk just added anavar 70mg/day and I've dropped 2% BF in the past wk, only losing 3 lbs total mass.

If you're just going to talk negative shit about how I need to be this and that to get 100% efficiency out of my cycle save your electricity. I look good and every day I'm looking better and feeling better. That's the point.

**< <Samson> >** · 09-13-2014, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by hawk14dl

You're cycling and you've never benched 2 plates? What are your stats? (Age, height, weight, body fat, training history)

No to defend anyone, especially since I love talking shit

But

I never even benched two plates until I hit the sauce(I couldn't even bench 185 well). My strength always sucked ass everywhere aside from my arms.

I barely put up 80 pound dumbbells on a flat bench or incline. Ever since I hit the sauce I have steadily progressed quite well - This is just me though, I don't know if anyone follows my juicing model or outline.

So far, I have tried my best not to jump in strength & just tear something beyond recognition. After three years I put up 120 Lb. dumbbells on both flat & incline benches for 5-6x. I hit 185 on a incline barbell bench for warm up about 10-12x.

Like I said in another thread, some of us are just plain out genetically weak. Prior to to this, I lifted on & off for years with damn near zero progression. While a few guys I worked out with just steadily climbed in strength from mild lifting.

Seeing true progression after hitting the sauce completely changed my mind set on real strength improvements for myself.

**hawk14dl** · 09-13-2014, 07:51 PM

You open yourself up to injury if you don't have a starting base. That's why I ask.

If you're 5'6 and 170lbs with 14% that's one excuse to not bench 2 plates. You have enough of a base to build on, but with the low body weight is excusable to have a lower bench.

If you're 6' 170 and can't bench 2 plates, you weren't ready for a cycle.

That's why I asked height, weight, and bf%.

This could absolutely explain why you are having tendon issues (as you indicated earlier).

Best of luck with your cycle.

**Jcz85** · 09-13-2014, 09:20 PM

Dumbest thing I've ever heard. So a guy 6" shorter than me with shorter arms shouldn't be able to bench 2 plates but I should be even though I'm half a foot taller and only 15lbs heavier? Are you ****ing retarded?? You know what leverage is and that longer arms = longer distance for the weight to travel?

Seriously, piss off with the "you need to be this bf, this weight, this strength to cycle". Think I'd consider taking steroids if after 3 years of training I was putting up two plate benches and 300 lb squats and I was satisfied with my ability to grow and recover? And don't tell me it's lack of effort on my part. Sick of these kinds of posts. Stick with something useful that everyone doesnt already know if you're going to reply to a thread.

Besides, I could bench close to 2 plates natural anyways on a good day, just never quite got there.

**Baxter35** · 09-13-2014, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jcz85

Dumbest thing I've ever heard. So a guy 6" shorter than me with shorter arms shouldn't be able to bench 2 plates but I should be even though I'm half a foot taller and only 15lbs heavier? Are you ****ing retarded?? You know what leverage is and that longer arms = longer distance for the weight to travel?

Seriously, piss off with the "you need to be this bf, this weight, this strength to cycle". Think I'd consider taking steroids if after 3 years of training I was putting up two plate benches and 300 lb squats and I was satisfied with my ability to grow and recover? And don't tell me it's lack of effort on my part. Sick of these kinds of posts. Stick with something useful that everyone doesnt already know if you're going to reply to a thread.

You can agree to disagree, but from what I read Hawk really wasn't being hostile in his questioning. No need for such a hostile response.

**hawk14dl** · 09-13-2014, 09:51 PM

No, I truly wasn't being hostile.

If you read what I wrote, I'm perfectly explaining the role of leverage with my statement.

Someone 5'6 can bench more at the same bodyweight and bf% then someone 6'. This is exactly what I said.

I'm trying to be helpful. You complained about tendon issues. Then you said you finally benched 2 plates.

You're not going to give your stats obviously. And it's cool, I don't care what you do to your body. I'm just saying, it doesn't sound like you were ready.

**Mp859** · 09-13-2014, 10:03 PM

Sounds to me like you weren't ready. A lot of your questions should have been answered before you cycled. Idk.

**hawk14dl** · 09-13-2014, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mp859

Sounds to me like you weren't ready. A lot of your questions should have been answered before you cycled. Idk.

Yes I neglected to even mention he didn't know what lh and fsh were and why they were completely gone.
I mean based on this entire thread I could get pretty ugly and mean. I'm not trying to do that. I was just trying to bring it to your attention you may not have been ready and you're setting yourself up for injury.

**Mp859** · 09-13-2014, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by hawk14dl

Yes I neglected to even mention he didn't know what lh and fsh were and why they were completely gone. I mean based on this entire thread I could get pretty ugly and mean. I'm not trying to do that. I was just trying to bring it to your attention you may not have been ready and you're setting yourself up for injury.

The sudden tendon pain is a dead giveaway for me.

**Jcz85** · 09-14-2014, 07:09 AM

The reason I got so angry is because I am sick and tired of "what are your stats, you need to be this bf and this weight and this strength before you can cycle, kid, respect my authority" as an answer to every one of my questions. It's a was of looking down on someone less knowledgeable. But I apologize.

I had tendon issues because I was stupid and pushed too much weight on a leg press, but it wasn't that bad and healed in 3 days.

Yes, I probably should have known more before I started cycling, but guess what, I was sick of waiting and having bad results. Glad I didn't wait because looking in the mirror this morning made me really happy.

You guys need to realize that not everyone cares about being 100% efficient with their first cycle if it means waiting another 6 months. I've taken blood 3 times since I decided to cycle, twice while on cycle, so give me a break. I'm doing it safe as it gets. Maybe I'm learning stuff on the fly, but that's life.

Oh, and stats are 185 lbs, 6 feet, 15% bf. I am cutting until I reach 10% BF. On 7th wk of test E 500mg/wk, added 70mg anavar ED until end of cycle. So far so good, except for the weak test, but still potent enough to get me to twice the level of high end average. Naturally I am on the low end.

**tice1212** · 09-14-2014, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Jcz85

I'm doing it safe as it gets. Maybe I'm learning stuff on the fly, but that's life.

This statement will end u up in the hospital.

IMO i want learn before putting DRUGS in my body..its not just Bro-science when it comes to my health.

Also people tell u these things because it helps to develop a better understanding of the drugs and to help u learn for their mistakes..