SERMS while on cycle

**Tactmed** · 02-02-2015, 01:16 PM

First cycle, on 500 test E a week, having a lot of water retention, what is the dose of Clomid or Nolvadex to help with that while on cycle?? The SERMS are definitely in my plan for PCT, but I understand I can take a low dose during cycle to help with estrogen conversion and water retention. What is that low dose?

**Mr.BB** · 02-02-2015, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tactmed

First cycle, on 500 test E a week, having a lot of water retention, what is the dose of Clomid or Nolvadex to help with that while on cycle?? The SERMS are definitely in my plan for PCT, but I understand I can take a low dose during cycle to help with estrogen conversion and water retention. What is that low dose?

What are your stats? Whats your complete cycle protocol?

Clomid and Nolva are not for water retention. What helps with water retention is AI, like arimidex or exemestane, it helps cause water retention is caused by high E2.

High E2 effects are really bad on body. Gyno and erectile disfuction are some of the mildest effects of high E2.

How much AI are you taking?

What about HCG ?

**Buster Brown** · 02-02-2015, 01:51 PM

You can use a serm on cycle but an AI is preferred. Nov can be used if gyno pops up as it combats it effectively.

**Tactmed** · 02-02-2015, 01:55 PM

I'm 45, 6-1 tall, 220. BMI around 18 to 20%. I'm taking 250mg of Test E Monday and Thursday.

This is the beginning of my third week and my boobs seem a little fuller but have no tenderness and no lump under nipple. Today I got a comment about my face looking very swollen. Other than two weeks of Winstrol 25mg only once a week, I'm not taking anything else. No AI, HCG or SERM. I got bad info on the Winstrol which was an injectable, so I stopped it.
I don't want to stop my Test cycle but I would like to curb the water retention and definitely get rid of the boobs. Can I add something although I'm 3 weeks in or do I stop my cycle until I get all my ducks in a row or what?? Thanks

**kelkel** · 02-02-2015, 02:00 PM

Read this and get on track asap. You need an AI right away.

My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

Ancillaries are available through the site sponsor. Top right of this page ar-r .com

**Tactmed** · 02-02-2015, 02:13 PM

So do I stay on my test cycle or stop it?

**Mr.BB** · 02-02-2015, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tactmed

So do I stay on my test cycle or stop it?

About your gyno concerns read this: Do I have Gynecomastia? If you're asking this question, read this thread.

You are the only one who can make the decision on continuing the cycle.

If you continue plz take some AI ASAP, did you read the link Kelkel provided?

Your water retention will get worse as you are still in beggining of 3rd week and test levels are still rising. Plz check your blood pressure!

**ghettoboyd** · 02-02-2015, 03:57 PM

you can use nolva right now to block whatever estrogen issues you are having at the receptor because that's what serms do but you still need an a.I. to knock down whatever circulating estrogen is present because if you continue to cycle without an a.I. your e2 will most likely continue to rise imho....using an a.i from the beginning of a cycle is optimum...

**Tactmed** · 02-02-2015, 06:10 PM

Ok thanks everyone, that's why I love these boards. I think I'm going to come off. I think my BMI is too high and I should of been more informed rather than listening to some dude in the gym lol.

Last question though. After only doing 3 weeks of 500mg a week, when I stop should I still start a SERM?

**Buster Brown** · 02-02-2015, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tactmed

Ok thanks everyone, that's why I love these boards. I think I'm going to come off. I think my BMI is too high and I should of been more informed rather than listening to some dude in the gym lol.

Last question though. After only doing 3 weeks of 500mg a week, when I stop should I still start a SERM?

When you stop your cycle you start using your serms (Nov and clo) for pct which if you are pinning enanthate would start 14 days from.last pin.

**jolter604** · 02-02-2015, 08:31 PM

Next time get a Ai....

**AussieMachine** · 02-03-2015, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Tactmed

First cycle, on 500 test E a week, having a lot of water retention, what is the dose of Clomid or Nolvadex to help with that while on cycle?? The SERMS are definitely in my plan for PCT, but I understand I can take a low dose during cycle to help with estrogen conversion and water retention. What is that low dose?

Nolvadex is a decent choice for blocking estrogen at the receptor site while using 500mg/test. Arimidex can be used, but it's probably a little more then what you need. Using roughly 10-20mg/day of Nolvadex will help with some bloat, but you really need to keep your carbohydrate and sodium consumption in check to bring down your bloat a little more.

All the best

**kelkel** · 02-03-2015, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by AussieMachine

Nolvadex is a decent choice for blocking estrogen at the receptor site while using 500mg/test. Arimidex can be used, but it's probably a little more then what you need. Using roughly 10-20mg/day of Nolvadex will help with some bloat, but you really need to keep your carbohydrate and sodium consumption in check to bring down your bloat a little more.

All the best

No. AI's are needed on cycle. There's really no argument that five minutes on pubmed or any other medical site wouldn't clarify for you. Out of control estrogen is about far more than simply preventing gyno with nolva. The damaging effects of high estrogen are internal, not external.

**cucu** · 02-03-2015, 11:43 AM

Apart from that, aren't some people running a low dose of clomid (like 25 mg / day) for a better recovery? Wouldn't it help to not desensitize the pituitary? Along with a proper on-cycle management and a proper PCT, of course.

Also, wouldn't it make more sense for the OP not to stop and give 1 week to the AI's? If still the sides not under control, then he can stop. Although the only usual sides that demand stopping are BP, blood thickening, depressive state and hematocrit. Bloating, gyno, testicular shrinkage etc you can go along if you choose (those from the usual sides only, not other severe adverse). You can check this for example: cat.inist. fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2638887

**Buster Brown** · 02-03-2015, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by cucu

Apart from that, aren't some people running a low dose of clomid (like 25 mg / day) for a better recovery? Wouldn't it help to not desensitize the pituitary? Along with a proper on-cycle management and a proper PCT, of course.

Also, wouldn't it make more sense for the OP not to stop and give 1 week to the AI's? If still the sides not under control, then he can stop. Although the only usual sides that demand stopping are BP, blood thickening, depressive state and hematocrit. Bloating, gyno, testicular shrinkage etc you can go along if you choose (those from the usual sides only, not other severe adverse). You can check this for example: cat.inist. fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2638887

Who do you know who is running clo on cycle? The accepted and proven protocol of running Nov on cycle to combat gyno is pretty much the standard. Others may use ralox or letro but only to combat sides.

**Back In Black** · 02-03-2015, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tactmed

Ok thanks everyone, that's why I love these boards. I think I'm going to come off. I think my BMI is too high and I should of been more informed rather than listening to some dude in the gym lol.

Last question though. After only doing 3 weeks of 500mg a week, when I stop should I still start a SERM?

No offence but you did get good advice in your previous threads. You were told an AI and HCG are a must and also that your bodyfat % was way too high to be cycling. You said you were 25-30% based on a bodyfat pic 2 weeks ago.

Coming off is the correct decision, focus on your cardio and diet over the coming months. Nolva at 40/20/20/20 and clomid at 75/50/50/50.

Visit our diet section and get a plan in place.

**kelkel** · 02-03-2015, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by cucu

Apart from that, aren't some people running a low dose of clomid (like 25 mg / day) for a better recovery? Wouldn't it help to not desensitize the pituitary? Along with a proper on-cycle management and a proper PCT, of course.

Not that I'm aware of. If you have any studies please post them up. I'd be interested in reading them.

**cucu** · 02-03-2015, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Who do you know who is running clo on cycle? The accepted and proven protocol of running Nov on cycle to combat gyno is pretty much the standard. Others may use ralox or letro but only to combat sides.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih. gov/pubmed/9093207 cant post links yet
Well, there is this study. It is about a replacement dose of T, and how clomid with that is not suppressing the HPT axis, instead driving it.

Moreover, it is speculated that a mild drive from the clomidmight keep the pituitary going during supraphysiological doses. I think there is valid reasoning behind that.

**Tactmed** · 02-03-2015, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Back In Black

No offence but you did get good advice in your previous threads. You were told an AI and HCG are a must and also that your bodyfat % was way too high to be cycling. You said you were 25-30% based on a bodyfat pic 2 weeks ago. Coming off is the correct decision, focus on your cardio and diet over the coming months. Nolva at 40/20/20/20 and clomid at 75/50/50/50. Visit our diet section and get a plan in place.

I'm not referring to the advise I have gotten from these forums and this site. Everything and everyone has been great. I was referring to the info and instructions I received from the "hook-up", the gym rat who I got gear from. I know it's embarrassing, and I'm sure you guys see it all the time, but my biggest issue is jumping head first and not being educated at all. Thanks again for all your help.

**cucu** · 02-03-2015, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by cucu

www.ncbi.nlm.nih. gov/pubmed/9093207 cant post links yet
Well, there is this study. It is about a replacement dose of T, and how clomid with that is not suppressing the HPT axis, instead driving it.

Moreover, it is speculated that a mild drive from the clomidmight keep the pituitary going during supraphysiological doses. I think there is valid reasoning behind that.

Alas it is Nolva, but point stands. And Andriol , that is known for a reduced tinkering of the HPTA despite being a T ester.

To the end of not hijacking another mans thread ill start a new one regarding viability of SERMs while on cycle for an easier recovery.

**Mr.BB** · 02-03-2015, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by cucu

www.ncbi.nlm.nih. gov/pubmed/9093207 cant post links yet
Well, there is this study. It is about a replacement dose of T, and how clomid with that is not suppressing the HPT axis, instead driving it.

Moreover, it is speculated that a mild drive from the clomidmight keep the pituitary going during supraphysiological doses. I think there is valid reasoning behind that.

I disagree. This study is about tamoxifen and relates to sperm quality, dont understand what it has to do with your theory.

Furthermore the study is "strange", they used testosterone undecanoate and injected "40 mg three times per day" ?!?!?!?

**Buster Brown** · 02-03-2015, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by cucu

www.ncbi.nlm.nih. gov/pubmed/9093207 cant post links yet
Well, there is this study. It is about a replacement dose of T, and how clomid with that is not suppressing the HPT axis, instead driving it.

Moreover, it is speculated that a mild drive from the clomidmight keep the pituitary going during supraphysiological doses. I think there is valid reasoning behind that.

I am not sure what you are really driving at. If you are planning to cycle at some point there are def risks involved as there are with anything in life. In a nutshell shutdown is shutdown and another problem is that we are using pct compounds "off" label so to speak. The studies we have are sparse and that is unfortunate. From what you have been posting you are definitely doing your homework and questioning the protocols that are followed. We are all lab rats so to speak and perhaps cycling guidelines will change again just like they have in the past. At some point we will be considered caveman in our approach but for the time... .its all we have.

**kelkel** · 02-03-2015, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.BB

I disagree. This study is about tamoxifen and relates to sperm quality, dont understand what it has to do with your theory.

Furthermore the study is "strange", they used testosterone undecanoate and injected "40 mg three times per day" ?!?!?!?

Agree. I don't see the relevance. When it comes to the proposed theory of keeping the pituitary functioning I think it's doubtful at best. Run all the serms you want during your cycle and it won't show an increase in LH & FSH function (and I've done just that.) Whether it maintains some form of "sensitivity" beyond that measure is far past my pay grade.