2nd cycle Prop or Enanthate ONLY

**chris_columbia** · 03-03-2015, 12:56 PM

I am planning my 2nd cycle after i succesSfully completed a 10 week Test E 500mg/wk cycle and am currently in proper pct for that cycle, i gained 40lbs (190-230) while eating whatever in sight and i'm on week two of pct and am only down 5lbs, which i know isn't that relevant but wanted to jot it down anyways.

I am looking to do a cycle of test prop @ 100mg eod and am wondering how the gains will compare to the 500mg a week, i know it will only be 350mg of test a week so i'm curious as to how my body is going to react to a smaller amount than last time, and if it would even be worth it to run for 8 weeks. Any opinions or personal experience with running a 12 week test E cycle V.s an 8 week test prop cycle as far as gains, retention of gains, and etc..

stats are
25 YRS OLD
225lbs
6ft 1in
17% bf (will cut down to 12-14 before cycle)

**Buster Brown** · 03-03-2015, 01:22 PM

I always recomp or cut on prop/tren and love it. I always use prop at 100 mgs eod. If cutting or recomping is your goal you will be fine. If you are bulking stay with enanthate as you will need longer to accomplish a decent bulk.

**chris_columbia** · 03-03-2015, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

I always recomp or cut on prop/tren and love it. I always use prop at 100 mgs eod. If cutting or recomping is your goal you will be fine. If you are bulking stay with enanthate as you will need longer to accomplish a decent bulk.

I will be cutting, so the prop isn't really going to be used to put on alot of muscle, it's just going to be used mainly to help retain muscle while my calories are restricted lower than an average deficit. Do you still think i will gain weight with that and more or less recomp my body or lose weight while on cycle?

**Buster Brown** · 03-03-2015, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by chris_columbia

I will be cutting, so the prop isn't really going to be used to put on alot of muscle, it's just going to be used mainly to help retain muscle while my calories are restricted lower than an average deficit. Do you still think i will gain weight with that and more or less recomp my body or lose weight while on cycle?

Tbh, I am not a huge fan of the recomp. I think you would do better cutting and if you reach your goal prior to the cycle being over with eat at maintenance at that point. 350 mgs of prop will def spare your muscle which is the point.

**chris_columbia** · 03-03-2015, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Tbh, I am not a huge fan of the recomp. I think you would do better cutting and if you reach your goal prior to the cycle being over with eat at maintenance at that point. 350 mgs of prop will def spare your muscle which is the point.

Than I will just cut, anything to add on a 2nd cycle maybe an oral Backload or Kickstart or another injectable? Or just keep it plain and simple.

**Buster Brown** · 03-03-2015, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by chris_columbia

Than I will just cut, anything to add on a 2nd cycle maybe an oral Backload or Kickstart or another injectable? Or just keep it plain and simple.

You could try npp, tbol, Winnie, var or just keep it simple really up to you. At least you know what direction to go in. I would work on your diet plan and routine first, you have some time to think about another compound and research it.

**chris_columbia** · 03-03-2015, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

You could try npp, tbol, Winnie, var or just keep it simple really up to you. At least you know what direction to go in. I would work on your diet plan and routine first, you have some time to think about another compound and research it.

I was thinking npp but do you think that would go well with a cut, I heard npp puts on alot of size, or is that also diet dependent? And I know I'm about to start working on my diet after pct than run with it for about 6 weeks than cycle.

**Buster Brown** · 03-03-2015, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by chris_columbia

I was thinking npp but do you think that would go well with a cut, I heard npp puts on alot of size, or is that also diet dependent? And I know I'm about to start working on my diet after pct than run with it for about 6 weeks than cycle.

Everything is diet dependant. I was trying to come up with a good second compound to add to your repertoire. I also like tbol and Winnie but some guys have a tough time with Winnie due to joint pain, I do alright with it. Tbol is mild and always gave me a good pump during workouts.

**chris_columbia** · 03-03-2015, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Everything is diet dependant. I was trying to come up with a good second compound to add to your repertoire. I also like tbol and Winnie but some guys have a tough time with Winnie due to joint pain, I do alright with it. Tbol is mild and always gave me a good pump during workouts.

So would I notice the effects of Winstrol at 14% bf? I feel I could bare the joint pain, maybe if I add in some Nandrolone phenylpropionate it could help with that? Maybe just run the npp for a short 4 week burst? If that wouldn't work well, please advise otherwise.

**Buster Brown** · 03-03-2015, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by chris_columbia

So would I notice the effects of Winstrol at 14% bf? I feel I could bare the joint pain, maybe if I add in some Nandrolone phenylpropionate it could help with that? Maybe just run the npp for a short 4 week burst? If that wouldn't work well, please advise otherwise.

Either run the npp the whole cycle or not at all. Winnie at 14% ehhhh, obviously not as much as a lower bf but who's to say what you will start especially if you prime first.

**Score** · 03-03-2015, 08:53 PM

Amazing gains Chris! Congrats! At what week did your gains start coming?

**chris_columbia** · 03-03-2015, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Either run the npp the whole cycle or not at all. Winnie at 14% ehhhh, obviously not as much as a lower bf but who's to say what you will start especially if you prime first.

Than I'll just stick with prop for this one and than maybe after this I may try prop+npp. I want to have at least 2 test only cycles under my belt so I can test out both of the esters and how I react to both.

**chris_columbia** · 03-03-2015, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Score

Amazing gains Chris! Congrats! At what week did your gains start coming?

Around week 5-6 was when the test started working it's magic.

**Buster Brown** · 03-03-2015, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by chris_columbia

Than I'll just stick with prop for this one and than maybe after this I may try prop+npp. I want to have at least 2 test only cycles under my belt so I can test out both of the esters and how I react to both.

Smart man

**NACH3** · 03-03-2015, 10:05 PM

First I'd like to say smart plan as well regarding testing both esters first!

I'm currently running Prop/NPP/backloading w/Winny... But as Buster Stated its definitely diet dependent! I'm up in weight 10lbs atm and losing bf... It's all diet and training dependent as you know! Just thought I'd share... And this is my first time w/NPP and so far it's not disappointing(if continues probly my fav compound)!

GL w/your next cycle!

**Buster Brown** · 03-03-2015, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by NACH3

First I'd like to say smart plan as well regarding testing both esters first!

I'm currently running Prop/NPP/backloading w/Winny... But as Buster Stated its definitely diet dependent! I'm up in weight 10lbs atm and losing bf... It's all diet and training dependent as you know! Just thought I'd share... And this is my first time w/NPP and so far it's not disappointing(if continues probly my fav compound)!

GL w/your next cycle!

Nach gives his approval ....your gtg! We didn't tell him about the dog ........lol

**NACH3** · 03-03-2015, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Nach gives his approval ....your gtg! We didn't tell him about the dog ........lol

Yup g2g! Lol Gotta ask what's the Dog??...

**chris.baker** · 03-03-2015, 11:37 PM

Few things.... first cycle, only 10 weeks, and you gained 40lbs? I mean no disrespect when I say this, but you said you ate "whatever in sight." I get that it's a bulking cycle, but I still firmly believe in eating clean. If you gained 40lbs in 10-weeks on your first cycle of 500mg test a week, that's some fairly impressive gains. Makes me think you packed on some muscle, but also more body fat than you should have. It's easy to put it on, not so easy to take it off. I see guys get into a vicious circle of "bulk" then "cut" then "bulk" then "cut." They do that because when they "bulk" they gain too much fat and when they "cut" they end up loosing too much muscle. If done right, these things don't need to happen that way.

I know of guys that will do a bulking cycle and end up with (IMO) way too much body fat. Then they cut calories, do something like a prop/clen cycle, and drop the weight... but at the same time they end up losing a lot of their gains. Diet is SO VERY IMPORTANT! Diet probably means more than all the gear in the world and hardcore workouts. If you diet right and nothing more than moderate exercise, you can be in darn good shape.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bulking cycle. My personal preference is a simple 12-week Test-E/Deca cycle. I will eat a LOT of calories, but I still eat clean. Veggies, some fruit, LOTS of protein, etc. I always include cardio as well, no matter what. With a proper bulking cycle with the correct diet and followed by the correct PCT, you can lean out nicely with nothing more than continuing proper workouts and eating clean (and adjusting your diet to a non-bulking cycle). Once you drop the water weight that's normal with a bulking cycle and you lean out with the workouts and diet, you should be able to keep all your gains, drop what little body fat you gained, and do so without doing a cutting cycle.

Lot point made short, a proper bulking cycle should not have to be followed by a cutting cycle. That's not to say there is no place for a cutting cycle. I think they are split into two parts. Part 1) A cycle designed for folks that just plain have too much body fat and need help getting over that hump (like the girl I know taking Var/Clen and busting her ass to get over her weight/fat hump). For guys that are using a cutting cycle, most are looking to get super lean and ripped, often for competitions.

I guess what I'm saying is that from what you've said, I don't think you need a cutting cycle, but rather a proper diet and proper workout cycle.

Not to sound harsh or beat you up, but you are 25, this was your first cycle, you are still on PCT, and already thinking of a cutting cycle. I don't think cycles should be ran back to back. Others can give more input in that, but I think one or two total cycles a year is more than enough for most of us. No sense being harder on your body than you need. Follow your proper PCT, then get on a lean diet and keep working out hard.... you don't want to lose your gains and you want to try and lose as much BF as you can naturally before another cycle.

Some other things to consider.... prop hurts. Seriously, most people (myself included) have more pain from prop than pretty much any other gear. Add to that EOD pins rather than once a week only adds to the pain, the hassle, and that many pins can somethings just get on your nerves. I've known some guys that started a prop cycle for cutting and they had to end early because they were unable to workout because their whole body was just hurting from the prop and EOD pins.

So my advice.... research more into proper diets. Do proper workouts while eating right and get your BF down to a good number. Don't "cut" just to drop weight, "cut" to lean out your mass and make nice hard, tight muscles with good definition. I also get the impression you are in a hurry (or at least eager) to jump into your next cycle. Believe me, I get that.... we all do. But don't. Learn to trust your PCT, diet, and workouts and see that you can keep your gains and lean out nicely without any other gear. Once you get there then you are ready for your next cycle (assuming enough time has passed). If you do 12-weeks on (plus PCT) and 12-weeks off you are only looking about two cycles a year.

As far as a proper cutting cycle, there are many examples listed in the stack/cycle portion of this site. Prop, HGH, Clen (if you can handle the jitters.... I can't), EQ, T3, T4, ots of options. Oh, and winny... but I like my full head of hair.

**Buster Brown** · 03-04-2015, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by chris.baker

Few things.... first cycle, only 10 weeks, and you gained 40lbs? I mean no disrespect when I say this, but you said you ate "whatever in sight." I get that it's a bulking cycle, but I still firmly believe in eating clean. If you gained 40lbs in 10-weeks on your first cycle of 500mg test a week, that's some fairly impressive gains. Makes me think you packed on some muscle, but also more body fat than you should have. It's easy to put it on, not so easy to take it off. I see guys get into a vicious circle of "bulk" then "cut" then "bulk" then "cut." They do that because when they "bulk" they gain too much fat and when they "cut" they end up loosing too much muscle. If done right, these things don't need to happen that way.

I know of guys that will do a bulking cycle and end up with (IMO) way too much body fat. Then they cut calories, do something like a prop/clen cycle, and drop the weight... but at the same time they end up losing a lot of their gains. Diet is SO VERY IMPORTANT! Diet probably means more than all the gear in the world and hardcore workouts. If you diet right and nothing more than moderate exercise, you can be in darn good shape.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bulking cycle. My personal preference is a simple 12-week Test-E/Deca cycle. I will eat a LOT of calories, but I still eat clean. Veggies, some fruit, LOTS of protein, etc. I always include cardio as well, no matter what. With a proper bulking cycle with the correct diet and followed by the correct PCT, you can lean out nicely with nothing more than continuing proper workouts and eating clean (and adjusting your diet to a non-bulking cycle). Once you drop the water weight that's normal with a bulking cycle and you lean out with the workouts and diet, you should be able to keep all your gains, drop what little body fat you gained, and do so without doing a cutting cycle.

Lot point made short, a proper bulking cycle should not have to be followed by a cutting cycle. That's not to say there is no place for a cutting cycle. I think they are split into two parts. Part 1) A cycle designed for folks that just plain have too much body fat and need help getting over that hump (like the girl I know taking Var/Clen and busting her ass to get over her weight/fat hump). For guys that are using a cutting cycle, most are looking to get super lean and ripped, often for competitions.

I guess what I'm saying is that from what you've said, I don't think you need a cutting cycle, but rather a proper diet and proper workout cycle.

Not to sound harsh or beat you up, but you are 25, this was your first cycle, you are still on PCT, and already thinking of a cutting cycle. I don't think cycles should be ran back to back. Others can give more input in that, but I think one or two total cycles a year is more than enough for most of us. No sense being harder on your body than you need. Follow your proper PCT, then get on a lean diet and keep working out hard.... you don't want to lose your gains and you want to try and lose as much BF as you can naturally before another cycle.

Some other things to consider.... prop hurts. Seriously, most people (myself included) have more pain from prop than pretty much any other gear. Add to that EOD pins rather than once a week only adds to the pain, the hassle, and that many pins can somethings just get on your nerves. I've known some guys that started a prop cycle for cutting and they had to end early because they were unable to workout because their whole body was just hurting from the prop and EOD pins.

So my advice.... research more into proper diets. Do proper workouts while eating right and get your BF down to a good number. Don't "cut" just to drop weight, "cut" to lean out your mass and make nice hard, tight muscles with good definition. I also get the impression you are in a hurry (or at least eager) to jump into your next cycle. Believe me, I get that.... we all do. But don't. Learn to trust your PCT, diet, and workouts and see that you can keep your gains and lean out nicely without any other gear. Once you get there then you are ready for your next cycle (assuming enough time has passed). If you do 12-weeks on (plus PCT) and 12-weeks off you are only looking about two cycles a year.

As far as a proper cutting cycle, there are many examples listed in the stack/cycle portion of this site. Prop, HGH, Clen (if you can handle the jitters.... I can't), EQ, T3, T4, ots of options. Oh, and winny... but I like my full head of hair.

That's your opinion and what works for some doesn't work for others. Eating clean is great but most guys here are average users and eating totally clean gets boring quick. 40 lbs a little too much? Sure ....could he have tightened it up? Yup but the only way to really know what works is trial and error. I gain just as much fat on a clean bulk as a dirty bulk tbh.

**Score** · 03-04-2015, 05:39 AM

Current stats state 17% body fat. Hard to claim any error in routine if that's true! Sure has me second guessing my progress.

**chris_columbia** · 03-04-2015, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

That's your opinion and what works for some doesn't work for others. Eating clean is great but most guys here are average users and eating totally clean gets boring quick. 40 lbs a little too much? Sure ....could he have tightened it up? Yup but the only way to really know what works is trial and error. I gain just as much fat on a clean bulk as a dirty bulk tbh.

Yeah I could've cleaned it up a little bit but I wanted to for my own purposes test out how test plays on my already slow metabolism, and it helped believe it or not with what I ate if I would've been off cycle I would've turned into a fat blob, but now that I know how it affects me and my metabolic rate I'm definitely not going to dirty bulk like that it was just a trial and error type deal and next bulk I'm going to eat relatively clean and see how that goes. remember my body type is naturally endomorph and I pack on weight just from looking at a candy bar.

**chris_columbia** · 03-04-2015, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Score

Current stats state 17% body fat. Hard to claim any error in routine if that's true! Sure has me second guessing my progress.

If your not an endomorph like me (naturally bigger guy, than your gains won't resemble mine since im very prone to weigh gain)

**Score** · 03-04-2015, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by chris_columbia

If your not an endomorph like me (naturally bigger guy, than your gains won't resemble mine since im very prone to weigh gain)

Ironically we are the exact same size (pre-cycle), but I'm an old man. I should have said - your progress is very motivating! Keep it up and please keep us posted on your 2nd cycle thoughts.

I vote npp (so I can copy : )

**chris_columbia** · 03-04-2015, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Score

Ironically we are the exact same size (pre-cycle), but I'm an old man. I should have said - your progress is very motivating! Keep it up and please keep us posted on your 2nd cycle thoughts.

I vote npp (so I can copy : )

We will see when the time comes but for now i'm set on test only.

**Buster Brown** · 03-04-2015, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by chris_columbia

Yeah I could've cleaned it up a little bit but I wanted to for my own purposes test out how test plays on my already slow metabolism, and it helped believe it or not with what I ate if I would've been off cycle I would've turned into a fat blob, but now that I know how it affects me and my metabolic rate I'm definitely not going to dirty bulk like that it was just a trial and error type deal and next bulk I'm going to eat relatively clean and see how that goes. remember my body type is naturally endomorph and I pack on weight just from looking at a candy bar.

Exactly, guidelines are great but you need to find what works best for you diet, cycle and training wise.