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Thread: Constantly Tired, is it the AI?

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    Duo
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    Constantly Tired, is it the AI?

    Hi guys

    I had lumps in my nipples about 5 weeks back and was advised to run Aromasin and Nolva to reduce this due to increased estrogen. 5 weeks on and one lump is gone and one is almost (very small at least). I have been taking aromasin 25mg eod and Nolva 20mg ed, about 2 weeks ago I started to become really tired early evening and found myself falling to sleep easily whilst watching TV with the Mrs. Over the last 4/5 days the tiredness seems to be there most of time and I feel like shit. I also have a very dry lips, which is annoying as fk..

    I am running a cycle of Rip Blend which contains:

    Rip Blend 200mg

    Each 1ml contains:

    Testosterone Propionate 70mg

    Trenbolone Acetate 65mg

    Masteron Propionate 65mg

    I am injecting 2ml eod and have had no issues with this, still 8 weeks to run on this cycle.

    I have never felt like this before and this is now my 4th cycle in 2 years. I was badly educated on the need to run an AI during cycle and have only started to use during the last 5 weeks as mentioned above. I have used Nolva previously during PCT which lasted for 4 weeks after all my previous cycles and again didn't feel like this. Which leads to me think that it is the Aromasin that is causing me to feel like this.

    Has anyone else been in this situation and was it that you totally crashed your Estrogen and what helped to sort things out? Should I completely stop the Aromasin?

    I know I am going to get bloods done to be sure of the problem, which I will but wanted to input from members experience/knowledge in the meantime.

    What sort of Blood Test is recommended? I mean what test does it need to include so I can sort one online today please?

    Thank you to anyone who can help me with this..
    Last edited by Duo; 04-07-2015 at 04:51 AM.

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    At the very least get your TT/FT,CBC, lipids, e2 for sure... Private ms labs has a hormone panel for males(or females just check the box for make for the E2)... This is best option IMO! Just to see all your bloods...

    I would think your prolac has something to do w/it... Are you taking Prami or caber??

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    Duo
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    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    At the very least get your TT/FT,CBC, lipids, e2 for sure... Private ms labs has a hormone panel for males(or females just check the box for make for the E2)... This is best option IMO! Just to see all your bloods...

    I would think your prolac has something to do w/it... Are you taking Prami or caber??
    Hi Nach

    Im not taking Prami or Caber. This is some of the options on one of the test I have found but cant see anything for E2, is it names something else?

    Kidney Function
    Liver Function
    Proteins
    Minerals
    Gout Test
    Diabetes Test
    Iron Profile
    Lipid Profile
    Heart Disease Risk
    Thyroid Test

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    Hi Nach

    Im not taking Prami or Caber. This is some of the options on one of the test I have found but cant see anything for E2, is it names something else?

    Kidney Function
    Liver Function
    Proteins
    Minerals
    Gout Test
    Diabetes Test
    Iron Profile
    Lipid Profile
    Heart Disease Risk
    Thyroid Test
    I am pretty certain w/you starting your AI late(& not from the start) and no DA I'm makin an educated guess(w/out BW) but your prolac is probably very high, and depending on when you started your AI your E2 could also be elevated causing it to be compounded!

    Look for exactly "the hormone panel for males" just like that... And E2 should be included... If not(they musta changed) but you could always just add it plus I forgot Prolactin(as this will tell you what needs to be done w/your DA and if adjustment is needed for AI)

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    Duo
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    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    I am pretty certain w/you starting your AI late(& not from the start) and no DA I'm makin an educated guess(w/out BW) but your prolac is probably very high, and depending on when you started your AI your E2 could also be elevated causing it to be compounded!

    Look for exactly "the hormone panel for males" just like that... And E2 should be included... If not(they musta changed) but you could always just add it plus I forgot Prolactin(as this will tell you what needs to be done w/your DA and if adjustment is needed for AI)
    Thank you for the response and your knowledge. I am in the UK so not sure what recommendation you are suggesting for the test, I will look to obtain those tests and report back asap. In the meantime, is there anything I should be doing?

    Sorry to look thick but what does DA mean? AI was started after 2 weeks of cycle started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    Thank you for the response and your knowledge. I am in the UK so not sure what recommendation you are suggesting for the test, I will look to obtain those tests and report back asap. In the meantime, is there anything I should be doing?

    Sorry to look thick but what does DA mean? AI was started after 2 weeks of cycle started.
    Ok your AI dose could be bumped to 12.5mg 2x daily, & make sure you take it w/fat(like PB or w/your am meal) w/Stane & is very hard to crash your E2... And spread it out between 12 hr doses one in am and 12 hrs later... But BW wIll certainly let ya know!

    DA = Dopamine Agonist... So they can be(again if your e2 isn't controlled) run alongside of a 19nor steroid (such as Nandrolone & Tren which are progestins abd cause your prolactin to rise - if your AI isn't dialed in to sweetspot) NOT JUST IN RANGE...

    I'm not to sure about your Countries laws on BW... But there are many from your way who I'm sure will chime in about the BW!!

    Best of luck mate!

    Just saw you are taking 25mgs daily my bad...
    Last edited by NACH3; 03-23-2015 at 08:45 AM. Reason: Is taking 25mgs of Stane
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    Dopamine agonist very strong drugs not to be used if not needed.

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    ^^^ this is true! With your current state we're just guessing... Take out the guessing w/BW! Internally it could be much worse...
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    I agree that it could be too many things too just start taking something else or taking a shotgun approach. Get some blood work and find out some info before proceeding blindly.
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    As i said in your other thread duo blood work is the only way mate. Where are you about ??

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    Duo
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    You are all correct guys and thank you for giving me the time to read my post and reply. I will look to get BW done asap, its essential!! Clarky I am in Bpool NW, are using a online BW co or do you go to your GP?

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    Is there any needle ex near you ? If there is try them some do blood work free i know it does not look good going near these places incase someone sees you but you need the bloods done. As for the doc no you can't unless you were well finished your cycle and wanted to see how you recovered.

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    If you are near Manchester go to The Pump Clinic

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarky. View Post
    Is there any needle ex near you ? If there is try them some do blood work free i know it does not look good going near these places incase someone sees you but you need the bloods done. As for the doc no you can't unless you were well finished your cycle and wanted to see how you recovered.
    Sorry to hijack the thread, but how does one go about getting blood work done at a needle exchange?

    Do you just ask for a checkup? Or anything specific?

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    Quote Originally Posted by uhit View Post
    Sorry to hijack the thread, but how does one go about getting blood work done at a needle exchange?

    Do you just ask for a checkup? Or anything specific?
    You should phone then first to see if they do BW if so you will have to tell them you are a steroid user and ask to get your bloods checked to see if your ok ect ect they will only do so much. I think there is still one in manchester it's very popular if your near there uhit ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    Ok your AI dose could be bumped to 12.5mg 2x daily, & make sure you take it w/fat(like PB or w/your am meal) w/Stane & is very hard to crash your E2... And spread it out between 12 hr doses one in am and 12 hrs later... But BW wIll certainly let ya know!

    DA = Dopamine Agonist... So they can be(again if your e2 isn't controlled) run alongside of a 19nor steroid (such as Nandrolone & Tren which are progestins abd cause your prolactin to rise - if your AI isn't dialed in to sweetspot) NOT JUST IN RANGE...

    I'm not to sure about your Countries laws on BW... But there are many from your way who I'm sure will chime in about the BW!!

    Best of luck mate!

    Just saw you are taking 25mgs daily my bad...
    I agree on DA like prami or something, to have on hand atleast. but you need blood work for us to really help. but ill sya this, near end of tren run i feel run down and a bit tired. even with everything in check.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarky. View Post
    You should phone then first to see if they do BW if so you will have to tell them you are a steroid user and ask to get your bloods checked to see if your ok ect ect they will only do so much. I think there is still one in manchester it's very popular if your near there uhit ??
    It seems some peeps cant see my posts

    Well, I say again, in Manchester its called the pump clinic. Its very popular and very good, specific for steroid users.

    Thanks for reading lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    It seems some peeps cant see my posts

    Well, I say again, in Manchester its called the pump clinic. Its very popular and very good, specific for steroid users.

    Thanks for reading lol
    I know BB lol i never. Just seen it when i posted
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarky. View Post
    You should phone then first to see if they do BW if so you will have to tell them you are a steroid user and ask to get your bloods checked to see if your ok ect ect they will only do so much. I think there is still one in manchester it's very popular if your near there uhit ??
    I'm unfortunately no where near Manchester.

    In london, where there is a needle exchange literally a 10 minute walk from my place. I'll check it out tomorrow.

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    In London its the Smart Muscle Steroid Service, its the same type of clinic as The pump clinic in Manchester.

    Its a free service.

    Hope its not out of line to post the details:

    Smart Muscle Steroid Service
    31, Wardour Street
    London W1D 6PP
    Telephone: 07974 199005
    Last edited by Mr.BB; 03-23-2015 at 04:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    In London its the Smart Muscle Steroid Service, its the same type of clinic as The pump clinic in Manchester.

    Its a free service, you can have free blood work here.

    Hope its not out of line to post the details:

    Smart Muscle Steroid Service
    31, Wardour Street
    London W1D 6PP
    Telephone: 07974 199005
    Thank you very much

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    Duo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.BB View Post
    If you are near Manchester go to The Pump Clinic
    I am only an hour away from Manchester so now problem getting there, thank you so much for this. I take its a free service and they don't ask any personal questions? How do you get your results and what are they able to test for please?

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    Duo
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    BB you are awesome, thanks for the referral... I have spoken to Gary at the pump clinic and I am seeing him tomorrow for the blood test. He has explained what they test for and it covers everything I need, there is no reason now why I wont be keeping a close eye on bloods moving forwards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarky. View Post
    Dopamine agonist very strong drugs not to be used if not needed.
    Just so I know the product for this, it is Caber right? I wont be taking it unless after I post bw someone advises it a good idea too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    Just so I know the product for this, it is Caber right? I wont be taking it unless after I post bw someone advises it a good idea too.
    Hey Duo... If your gonna be running a 19nor(such as Tren or nandrolone ) then yes have caber/or Prami as a DA...(ar-r has Liq. Prami, but no caber - caber isn't stable in liq. Form like Prami is)... If you get Prami then titrate dose, taken ed...(.125,.25,.375,.5 etc .5-.75mgs will be tops)... Take right b4 bed time as it can make some a lil nauseous, but subsides very quickly(in most, if you don't even feel it - I didnt)... But just giving a heads up... If you can get caber(.25mgs 2x wkly), most prefer it, but Prami has a profound affect on D3 receptor)...

    Once your BW is taken you will know what needs to be done...

    Awesome to see your getting the BW done!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    Hey Duo... If your gonna be running a 19nor(such as Tren or nandrolone ) then yes have caber/or Prami as a DA...(ar-r has Liq. Prami, but no caber - caber isn't stable in liq. Form like Prami is)... If you get Prami then titrate dose, taken ed...(.125,.25,.375,.5 etc .5-.75mgs will be tops)... Take right b4 bed time as it can make some a lil nauseous, but subsides very quickly(in most, if you don't even feel it - I didnt)... But just giving a heads up... If you can get caber(.25mgs 2x wkly), most prefer it, but Prami has a profound affect on D3 receptor)...

    Once your BW is taken you will know what needs to be done...

    Awesome to see your getting the BW done!!!
    Hi Nach3

    Yes I can get hold of Caber but man it costs the earth... It is 8 tablets and they are 0.5mg so if I do need after bw I just split it right? What is the typical time to run Caber given it is a strong med?

    Thanks for your knowledge, I am learning all the time and def feel more confident running cycles in the future and what to do and look out for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    Hi Nach3

    Yes I can get hold of Caber but man it costs the earth... It is 8 tablets and they are 0.5mg so if I do need after bw I just split it right? What is the typical time to run Caber given it is a strong med?

    Thanks for your knowledge, I am learning all the time and def feel more confident running cycles in the future and what to do and look out for.
    Hey brother... Glad to hear your feeling more confident(this really is a great forum)!!! With your BW it gets even better and more safe also(& a more successful cycle)!

    Yes you would split them into .25mgs yes... And take it e3d(2x wkly)and take at bed time also...
    Last edited by NACH3; 03-24-2015 at 05:38 AM.
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    Duo here is some information for you on DA this is copied from jimmy's thread just get your blood work done first then see were you are ppl are getting there knickers
    In a twist about prolactin.

    Dopamine Agonists:

    Dopamine Agonists are used on cycle to decrease Prolactin. 19 Nor Steroids such as Deca or Tren are reported to increase Prolactin levels. Proactin is a hormone that plays a key role in sexual function as well as the induction of lactation from the breast. If Prolactin becomes elevated Undesirable sexual side effects can occur and in more extreme cases even lactation from the breast (yes in males). So how does a Dopamine Agonist decrease Prolactin? Well it so happens that Dopamine has an inverse relationship with Prolactin, meaning the higher our Dopamine levels, the lower our Prolactin levels. Dopamine agonists have become a very practical way to lower elevated Prolactin. There are many Dopamine Agonists but below I will discuss the 2 most popular and effective.

    Cabergoline (Dostinex,Cabeser,Caber) is a long active life Dopamine Agonist. It comes dosed in tabs at .5mg and is not stable in liquid so it should not be used in that form. It has a very long active life and can effectively be taken at a dosage of .5mg 1-2x/week. It acts primarily on the D2 receptor providing a substantial increase in dopamine thus effectively lowering prolactin. Side effects are common with Dopamine Agonists and common side effects in over 50% of Cabergoline Users are GI disturbances including nausea and vomiting and also neurological disturbances such as depression and vertigo. In over 30% of users cardiovascular sides were noted such as hypertension, edema, arrhythmias and palpitations. Dopamine Agonists are not to be taken lightly in the side effect department.

    Pramipexole (Mirapex,Mirapexin,Prami) is a shorter active life Dopamine Agonist. It comes dosed from .125mg to 1.5mg tabs. Most common are 1mg tabs which are scored to be split 4 ways. It also comes in 1mg liquid form. Due to its active life Pramipexole should be dosed daily. Daily dosage is from .5-1mg/day for our purposes. Anyone taking Pramipexole, even if they are prescribed it, starts off at a very low dose, usually .25 mg/day for one week. Then they bump it up to .5mg. It acts both on the D2 and D3 receptors substantially increasing dopamine and thus lowering Prolactin. Particularly of interest for our purposes are it’s effect on the D3 receptor as well. Since most of the sides we will experience from elevated prolactin are sexual in nature. The D3 receptor plays a key role in male sexual function as well as desire. The fact that Praamipexole agonizes this receptor is an added benefit of Pramipexole that Cabergoline does not have. Also of interest Pramipexole has quite the reputation for side however upon researching when it is taken properly and the dosage started low and ramped up sides are significantly less than those associated with Cabergoline. The % of GI sides is lower, there are no reported sides of depression and no reports of any cardiovascular sides. Now this is not to say Pramipexole is side free, it is not. It would just appear when taken properly the sides are less and the effects, particularly the sexual effects, are more desirable in our circumstances.
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    Clarky,

    I obviously agree w/you in the event that if someone can control they're E2 then a DA wouldn't be necessary(if BW shows that)... But don't you agree that if E2 isn't in ones sweetspot(or is not in good standing) then w/all 19nors it should be used? Correct? If it's not needed then yes do not take one if prolac is fine.... Just curious...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    Hi Nach3

    Yes I can get hold of Caber but man it costs the earth... It is 8 tablets and they are 0.5mg so if I do need after bw I just split it right? What is the typical time to run Caber given it is a strong med?

    Thanks for your knowledge, I am learning all the time and def feel more confident running cycles in the future and what to do and look out for.
    8 tablets of 0,5mg... thats Dostinex, I use that myself on cycle at 0,25 every 3.5 days.

    Yes it is expensive even in pharmacy

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    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    Clarky,

    I obviously agree w/you in the event that if someone can control they're E2 then a DA wouldn't be necessary(if BW shows that)... But don't you agree that if E2 isn't in ones sweetspot(or is not in good standing) then w/all 19nors it should be used? Correct? If it's not needed then yes do not take one if prolac is fine.... Just curious...
    I agree with some nach but even if e2 is a bit iffy or taking time to get in range i would not just jump on a DA because i was using a 19nor no chance these drugs a very strong nach i would keep at getting e2 sorted while getting regular blood work and keep a eye on everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarky. View Post
    I agree with some nach but even if e2 is a bit iffy or taking time to get in range i would not just jump on a DA because i was using a 19nor no chance these drugs a very strong nach i would keep at getting e2 sorted while getting regular blood work and keep a eye on everything.
    Gotcha clarky!

    I totally agree 100%... These(DAs) are serious and can have some serious sides! I'm running a 19nor atm and am about to get my mids done and doing just that! Have it on hand just in case!

    Just wanted the newer members to understand the importance if BW shows elevated prolac!

    Cheers clarky
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  33. #33
    Duo
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    Hi Guys,

    Results are back, is it best to post in this thread or start a new one up to get some feedback/advice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Results are back, is it best to post in this thread or start a new one up to get some feedback/advice?
    It's your post so it's best to do it here so it's not open ended. What did you find out?

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    Duo
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    Im f***ed mate lol..

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    Duo
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    Tried several ways to upload the information but wont do it so doing it the old fashion way..

    RESULT REF RANGE

    Sodium 141 (133 - 146)
    Potassium 4.5 (3.5 - 5.5)
    Urea 6.7 (3.5 - 7.4)
    Creatinine *134 (59 - 104)
    Estimated GFR 53
    Alaline Transaminase *61 (5 - 40)
    Alkaline Phosphatase 49 (30 - 130)
    Total Protein 77 (60 - 80)
    Albumin 43 (34 - 48)
    Bilirubin 5 (0 - 22)
    Cholesterol *5.9 (0.0 - 4.0)
    High Density Cholesterol 0.58 (a)
    Triglyceride *2.4 (0.0 - 1.7)
    LDL Cholesterol *4.22 (0.0 - 2.0)
    Total Cholesterol/HDL Ratio 10.17 (b)

    Lab Comments

    (a) Target values for HDL >1.2 females and >1.0 males
    (b) High Cardiovascular risk

    Follicle Stimulating Hormone *<1.0 (1.5 - 12.4)
    Luteinising Hormone *<0.5 (1.7 - 8.6)
    Oestradiol *799 (0- 156)
    Sex Hormone Binding Globulin 34 (15 - 47
    Prolactin 152 (86 - 324)

    Although I know very little about what these mean, I can clearly see where things are not as they shoud. Any advice on how to tackle this would be greatfully received.

    One last thing the guy who did the test and then called me to discuss said that he doesn't feel that the Oestradiol result is correct as he thinks for some reason Tren messes with the reading and always shows as high even when it isn't, opinions on this please.

  37. #37
    Duo
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    Guys,

    I would really appreciate some feedback on my results above please..

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    Well we can rule out crashing your estrogen since your Oestradiol/Estrogen is *799 (0- 156)

    I'm confused though why the range stats at zero. No chance you should have zero. What lab did you run? Who did the test?

    pmol/L

    • 50-200 males
    • 70-510 females: early fol. phase (day 5)
    • 390-1480 females: preovulatory peak
    • 70-600 females: luteal phase
    • < 130 post-menopausal



    Where did you get your AI? Sounds like it is not working for you. Also since you are using tren you may need prami
    Last edited by lovbyts; 04-08-2015 at 02:39 AM.
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    Well... Your Estro is def elevated(even though it's oestrogen & not E2 sensitive) but it at least gives you an idea of your Estro being too elevated!

    Is your AI working? Compare it to your pre cycle BW and see(if you don't have that then I would bump your AI up... Or it may be bunk?! Though it's not E2 sensitive it def tells you of raised Estro! What kind of AI are you taking?

    I would also start NAC at 600mgs to bring down your ALT(this could be simply raised from working out) many members actually experience this due to working out hard(I was a tad worried when mine came back slightly elevated but not much - I'm taking 12-1600mgs ed(but also started an oral so I needed to bump it)...

    What's your hemoglobin/hematocrit levels? If they are elevated donate blood asapm(& you can do this regardless -it should make you feel better regardless) and if you have your hemoglobin X it by 3 to give your crit levels(anything 48> give blood imo... You'll feel more energized...

    EDIT: LB Sbd I were writing at same time....
    Last edited by NACH3; 04-08-2015 at 02:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NACH3 View Post
    Well... Your Estro is def elevated(even though it's oestrogen & not E2 sensitive) but it at least gives you an idea of your Estro being too elevated!

    Is your AI working? Compare it to your pre cycle BW and see(if you don't have that then I would bump your AI up... Or it may be bunk?! Though it's not E2 sensitive it def tells you of raised Estro! What kind of AI are you taking?

    I would also start NAC at 600mgs to bring down your ALT(this could be simply raised from working out) many members actually experience this due to working out hard(I was a tad worried when mine came back slightly elevated but not much - I'm taking 12-1600mgs ed(but also started an oral so I needed to bump it)...

    What's your hemoglobin/hematocrit levels? If they are elevated donate blood asapm(& you can do this regardless -it should make you feel better regardless) and if you have your hemoglobin X it by 3 to give your crit levels(anything 48> give blood imo... You'll feel more energized...

    EDIT: LB Sbd I were writing at same time....
    Go back to bed.... lol

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