Help me understand 19-nore, progesterone, prolactin, and dopamine

**GSXRvi6** · 04-07-2015, 05:02 PM

Ok so I've taken some 19-nor's and I've had 0 issues, I'm looking to up my dosages in the future so I want to make sure I understand the science behind it just in case I run into problems.

Any time I touch a 19-nor I run caber, .25mg 2x per week, I've never had any issues with gyno, libido problems, ED issues etc - ever - even when my estrogen was through the roof due to a bad AI.

Fact check me here:
The following are progestins:
NPP/Deca
Progesterone
Tren

- Progesterone is not prolactin, prolactin is NOT a progestin
- Dopamine reduces the production of prolactin (hence the use of Caber and Prami to deal with Prolactin as they are dopamine agonists)
- Estrogen increases the production of prolactin
- Estrogen suppression alone will not necessarily stop the increase of prolactin
- Progesterone (and 19-nor testosterone ) will actually antagonize estrogen receptors
- 19-nor has very low aromatization rate
- Progestins have a very powerful effect on LH levels (very suppressive) which in turn, will also lower DHT's (which is also an estrogen receptor antagonist)
- Prolactin is what causes a limp willy, loss of libido, lactation
- the use of DA's are common with 19-nor to combat prolactin type gyno (or what people call gyno) like Caber/Prami

If all of this is correct, why do people tend to develop puffy/lactating nipples using 19-nor's, what is the connection between 19-nor and increased prolactin that I am missing.

Also, I always run my test higher than any other compound - I need/want my body to convert the shit to DHT's and for my test to do it's job so I don't subscribe to the "run your test lower than X or half or double" method.

Everywhere I read, everything says "progestins increase prolactin levels" well technically so can testosterone through aromitization, what I have yet to be able to find is "how" do progestins increase prolactin - something doesn't smell right.

**GSXRvi6** · 04-10-2015, 08:53 AM

No one?

**NACH3** · 04-10-2015, 09:16 AM

Yes you've done your reading... Tren /& Nandrolone (decanate ester - long, NPP same compound different ester attached - short)

They are progestins and with any elevated E2 your prolac will rise as well!!! Causing libido issues, if bad lactation, gyno, etc... But prolactin has an array of functions in the brain as well...

Progestins increase prolactin b/c of your D receptors(Prami has a very profound affect on the D3 receptor site allowing for prolac to lower etc and helps w/libido as well unlike caber...

If you keep your E2 in check Its much safer to say that prolactin wouldnt be much of an issue... This of course depends on dise and duration as well!

I don't understand what you mean by this doesn't smell right... It's fact! Progestins will cause prolac to rise... Technically yes in regards to prolactin being able to rise w/test but that's only if your E2 is way high causing a bunch of different problems in your body...

**tectime** · 04-10-2015, 09:31 AM

Very good Nach ! 19 nors aren't all that tricky to deal with, like you said Science it's all about the chemical reactions and what you do in response to them and help keep them under control. Even double 19 nors are doable and very successful stacks if you understand the bioscience behind them.by the way Nach how was your npp run?

**GSXRvi6** · 04-10-2015, 09:33 AM

I guess I'm looking for a more direct mechanism on how it causes it to rise. The studies I have found show no direct relation between progesterone and prolactin increase in rats. Estrogen showed a direct impact on the increase in prolactin but it was not super significant.

I have found studies that show dopamine does reduce the production of prolactin and we see it in ourselves but the missing link I'm failing to find is how does 19-nor compounds directly or indirectly increase prolactin - I can't find a link anywhere other than what gets reported on forums. Comparing a compound like NPP to progesterone is also not an accurate assumption since to my knowledge we do not know the binding affinity of NPP to progesterone receptors (or at least I haven't been able to find it).

Based on "evidence" from users, there does appear to be a strong link between 19-nor's and prolactin, kind of hard to deny that. I haven't been able to find any studies that explain the mechanism of how it does it, everything I've read is saying we shouldn't be seeing what we are seeing.

This leaves me guessing - could it be a combination, for example is NPP a dirty ligand that decreases domapmine, combine that with a rise in estrogen and you get an increase in prolactin?

I don't mean to be nip picky I just want to understand, most of the chemistry we mess with is very clearly understood, for example, we know the direct mechanism in which increasing testosterone will increase estrogen etc, the data is everywhere. Finding the mechanism between 19-nor's and prolactin appears to be a mystery

**GSXRvi6** · 04-10-2015, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by tectime

Very good Nach ! 19 nors aren't all that tricky to deal with, like you said Science it's all about the chemical reactions and what you do in response to them and help keep them under control. Even double 19 nors are doable and very successful stacks if you understand the bioscience behind them.by the way Nach how was your npp run?

Part of my deep curiosity is I love 19-nor's, so far they are my favorite - by far. I'm 10 weeks into an NPP run @ 350mg/wk, my gains have been slow but very steady and clean, in terms of mood and side effects this has been the smoothest cycle I've ever ran. Normally I get to 10 weeks and my body just wants to stop, I feel an urge to stop pinning but with NPP it's like, lets keep this train moving.

In the future I would like to add more, possibly up to 600mg/wk at some point but I want to understand better before I do. Just because things are great at 350/wk doesn't mean they will be at even 500/wk.

**NACH3** · 04-10-2015, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by tectime

Very good Nach ! 19 nors aren't all that tricky to deal with, like you said Science it's all about the chemical reactions and what you do in response to them and help keep them under control. Even double 19 nors are doable and very successful stacks if you understand the bioscience behind them.by the way Nach how was your npp run?

Thx Tec! For the kind words up top... It's definitely doable! One just has to know how to keep there E2 in check(sweetspot - and I know you have some damn good Estro control)!!!!

It's going great Tec... I'm at wk 8 going on 9... Went from 175(primed) to 192.6 this am! I just uploaded pics in my attachments if you wanted to check em out... That Goes for anyone as they're open to the everyone!

Thx for asking brother!!!

**NACH3** · 04-10-2015, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by GSXRvi6

Part of my deep curiosity is I love 19-nor's, so far they are my favorite - by far. I'm 10 weeks into an NPP run @ 350mg/wk, my gains have been slow but very steady and clean, in terms of mood and side effects this has been the smoothest cycle I've ever ran. Normally I get to 10 weeks and my body just wants to stop, I feel an urge to stop pinning but with NPP it's like, lets keep this train moving.

In the future I would like to add more, possibly up to 600mg/wk at some point but I want to understand better before I do. Just because things are great at 350/wk doesn't mean they will be at even 500/wk.

Very true... This was my first run w/a 19nor and I'll always include one in my stack from now on!!

I tried Tren but it was a blend(prop/ace/mast) could not titrate my doses at all so dropped after 4 wks...

NPP is the shit!

**tectime** · 04-10-2015, 10:19 AM

Other then tes, deca is by far my fav! For me also it's smooth, great visual gains, a lot of swell and for me I don't have issues with water retention or prolactin increase ( not any more after years of bloods more often than needed you get a great inside to what works for you haha). Tren too great stuff! I like it as a finisher. Gets you all grainy hard veins popping aaaaaaah just thinking about it! But it's another monster for sure. You really can't control the tren beast I don't think, you only can control how long you let the monster out to play !

**tectime** · 04-10-2015, 10:31 AM

It's going great Tec... I'm at wk 8 going on 9... Went from 175(primed) to 192.6 this am! I just uploaded pics in my attachments if you wanted to check em out... That Goes for anyone as they're open to the everyone! Thx for asking brother!!![/QUOTE]

Sweet! On the gains! I can never get those things to open to see any pics. That back shot in avi is about a month after a 16 wk deca blast for me. Gains about 9 lbs 11% on bf (calipers)at start 11% 16 wks later. Love that deca done right ! Been another month since so just started my next ride ! Upping the deca 33% Tes the same as always. Probly finish this one with a little train time. Depends on what I think when the time comes. Oops op didn't mean to veer off! You know how it is when you get talkin about this stuff

**NACH3** · 04-10-2015, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by tectime

It's going great Tec... I'm at wk 8 going on 9... Went from 175(primed) to 192.6 this am! I just uploaded pics in my attachments if you wanted to check em out... That Goes for anyone as they're open to the everyone! Thx for asking brother!!!

Sweet! On the gains! I can never get those things to open to see any pics. That back shot in avi is about a month after a 16 wk deca blast for me. Gains about 9 lbs 11% on bf (calipers)at start 11% 16 wks later. Love that deca done right ! Been another month since so just started my next ride ! Upping the deca 33% Tes the same as always. Probly finish this one with a little train time. Depends on what I think when the time comes. Oops op didn't mean to veer off! You know how it is when you get talkin about this stuff[/QUOTE]

Nice brother... I love test and nandrolone myself now

I just saw how big the damn pics are... I'm at about 10% ATM but will be gettin bod pod done after... The winny is just melting bf

.

GL w/your next blast my freind! Lemme know how it goes for sure!!!

Again sorry OP... I think the question was answered but feel free to ask anything you want... What we are talking about is pretty much on topic... As we're discussing 19nors and prolactin

**jimmyinkedup** · 04-10-2015, 12:09 PM

The binding affinity of these compounds to the progesterone receptor can be found. I am going of of memory but if i recall nandrolone is something like 35% that of actual progesterone and trenbolone 50-60% of that of actual progesterone. At any rate It was posted years ago by Nandi. The main thing to keep in mind is regardless your first priority and the most prudent course is always to manage e2 as in the absence of elevated e2 is is very difficult for many of these sides to manifest themselves. Also there is even speculation that the lactation side effect may be caused by oxytocin and not necessarily prolactin. This is somewhat supported by the fact that aas users often experience it when their blood work does not show elevated levels of prolactin. Interesting topic.

**NACH3** · 04-10-2015, 12:26 PM

Is the elevated Oxytocin due to the supra physiological doses and the increase in libido?? I know oxytocin is a hormone found in both males/& females... Abd it's affect/or release In both cases of extreme hightented arousal and climax(with that said I didn't think one has to climax for oxytocin to be released but it is released moreso at climax correct?.. Very interesting.... But am I on the right path or way off?