Important Info About Restoring T-levels

**Sigmund Froid** · 06-25-2003, 11:33 PM

Here are some useful excerpts I dug up from www.t-mag.com to help a friend. I figured I ought to post it to help others who aren't aware of the possibility of relapse into hypogonadism (low t-levels).

---------------
Recharging the Boys

Q: Should a steroid user "load" Clomid? I've heard mixed opinions. What about other anti-estrogen drugs?

A: It really depends on the situation. If you're experiencing symptoms of gynecomastia and need to achieve a high blood concentration of the drug quickly, then yes, you should use large dosages over a short period of time. If you simply wish to restore yourself to a eugonadal state, I don't think it's as important to "load." However, I'd really like people to use the following protocol based on what little info we have concerning the restoration of the HPTA.

Essentially, you need to use 100 mg/day of clomiphene (50 mg, twice daily) for at least 2 months. This protocol is based on both anecdotal evidence as well as a few case reports.

One recent case report involved the reversal of a hypogonadal state in a man who'd previously used nandrolone decanoate, stanozolol , and methenolone for several months. The man complained of common hypogonadal symptoms (i.e., loss of libido, fatigue, depression, etc.) and upon investigation his total and free Testosterone levels were 71 ng/dl and 29 pg/ml respectively. (The reference ranges were 260-1000 ng/dl and 34-194 pg/ml, by the way.)

He was then given 100 mg of clomiphene for 5 days and reevaluated 2 weeks later. He reported an improvement in mood, energy, and libido and his total Testosterone was 828 ng/dl. However, after a follow up 2 months later, his symptoms had returned and his total Testosterone concentration was 301 ng/dl. In other words, he suffered a relapse.

They then gave the man 100 mg per day for 2 months and then reevaluated his blood work. They found his total Testosterone was 705 ng/dl and no relapse occurred in subsequent blood work. A similar case reported restoration of the HPTA using the same dosage of clomiphene over a 5 month period.

Anecdotally, I receive many letters from people explaining that they were feeling great when using clomiphene the first 2-4 weeks after their cycle, but seemed to suffer dramatic drops in terms of body composition, mood, energy levels, etc, thereafter.

My guess is that we've been underestimating the amount of time it takes to recover, even when using compounds like clomiphene. Granted, this probably can't be applied across the board as we have to take in many individual factors including what particular androgens the person was using, dosages, length of time, etc., but extended use of the drug seems to be the way to go. (1-2)

------------------
Can T levels be restored in former anabolic steroid users?

The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 300—1000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid users often have suppressed levels of both.

The Results: Subject #1 is a 6', 206lb former user of 500—2000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

Subject #2 is a 5'10", 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject's 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of HCG every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of HCG every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.(20)

Comments: The authors of this paper have presented some very interesting data that the medical community needs to learn from. When dealing with former androgen users, there may be better ways to increase Testosterone than the standard patch treatment (which will only prolong the problem of decreased T production.) Hypogonadal former androgen users need a treatment, not a band-aid. If you need to jump start your Testosterone after an androgen cycle, this combination of HCG, Clomid, and Nolvadex may be just what the doctor ordered. Now, trying to get him to order it is another story!

--------------------

Bodybuilders and Breeding

I've got a question which has probably crossed the minds of many guys who've used steroids at one time or another. Will the use of steroids, say, two or three eight-week cycles a year, destroy a man's ability to father children?

Depends on exactly where you're injecting, studboy. Okay, honestly, this is a common question with no really easy answer. The best response that I can give is "yes and no." It would depend on a lot of things, such as how much "drug" you were taking, whether you used Clomid or other anti-aromatics, and how many years you were doing this. In general (and this is very vague), the longer you do this and the bigger the doses you use, the more likely you are to decrease your chance of spawning little tricycle engines.

Additionally, many guys experience "transitional infertility" post-cycle. In other words, it may take 4-16 weeks to become normopotent after a cycle. If you're infertile secondary to AAS use, discuss this with your physician and see if he'll prescribe some Clomid or HCG to increase your sperm count. There's quite a bit of data in peer-reviewed journals to support the use of these drugs in this situation.

**trimunex** · 06-25-2003, 11:36 PM

good read Bro!

9

**the dent depot** · 06-26-2003, 12:11 AM

Thanks for posting!!!!!!

**majorpecs** · 06-26-2003, 06:11 AM

Great post!!

**TheMudMan** · 06-26-2003, 08:35 AM

Is anyone or has anyone tried running clomid @ 50mg 2x a day for 2 months? This is very interesting to me because I will be ending my cycle in a few weeks.

I have a few questions but I don't know if they can be answered.

1. Why split up the doeses of clomid I thouight it had a long half-life?
2. Are there any reasons why not to run clomid this long @ 100mg a day

**big N** · 06-26-2003, 08:37 AM

i come off with hcg the last 2weeks on my cycle the 300 day one and then i iusticwith 100 mged for like 2 months along with 20 -40 mg nolva.works great .

**Farm boy** · 06-26-2003, 09:01 AM

great post, thanks bro!

**ichabodcrane** · 06-26-2003, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by TheMudMan
Is anyone or has anyone tried running clomid @ 50mg 2x a day for 2 months? This is very interesting to me because I will be ending my cycle in a few weeks.

I have a few questions but I don't know if they can be answered.

1. Why split up the doeses of clomid I thouight it had a long half-life?
2. Are there any reasons why not to run clomid this long @ 100mg a day

If you are only running 100mg/d you do not need to split up the dosages because as you said, clomid does have a long half-life. I would only split up the dosages if you were running more than 2 tabs/day. You should have no problems running it for 2 months either, but do take note of any adverse side effects, ie. changes in clotting time manifesting in unusual bruises, leg soreness or aches in calves, dizziness and mental confusion (venous thrombosis), trouble breathing/shortness of breath (pulmonary embolism) and visual disturbances seem to be of concern as well. Nolva has an FDA black box warning stating thrombosis (unusual bleeding/clotting) as a major concern. Since these compounds are closely related it may be of concern. I think that since nolva is usually ran longer in clinical trials vs. clomid, this is where you mainly see these adverse effects manifesting in nolva and not so much in clomid. But the possibility is always there. So just pay attention to your body. Many people have ran clomid on order of months with no problems, and I wouldn't expect any, but just be aware. You may also notice mood changes, skin changes and other mild ADE's but mainly be concerned with the clotting and visual disturbances.

**Mudge** · 06-26-2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by Sigmund Froid
My guess is that we've been underestimating the amount of time it takes to recover, even when using compounds like clomiphene. Granted, this probably can't be applied across the board as we have to take in many individual factors including what particular androgens the person was using, dosages, length of time, etc., but extended use of the drug seems to be the way to go. (1-2)

This part makes total sense to me, because if we were "recouperated" when we were done with clomid therapy,then we'd just right back on cycle wouldn't we.

I am curious though about all this anti-clomid uprising of late that says it does "not work."

**Mudge** · 06-26-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by TheMudMan
1. Why split up the doeses of clomid I thouight it had a long half-life?

5 day half life. Still, taking it split evens things out better, but honestly I dont know why its suggested, and again I wonder about all these anti-clomid articles of late. It seems odd that anything oral can have a 5 day half life (?)

**Money Boss Hustla** · 06-26-2003, 11:44 PM

I read somewhere (and damned if I could find it again) that Clomid was relatively harsh on the liver. If so, taking Clomid for 2 months would be a concern.

**Mudge** · 06-27-2003, 03:10 PM

If it can avoid breakup for 5 days then it must have something to it, which would probably equal harshness.

I did a total of 4 weeks, 2 @ 100mg and 2 @ 50mg. Was it sufficient? I dont know, I'm on another cycle now and so far I would say that my gains are not as good, which leads me to believe I hadn't recouperated fully. Its only been 31 days though so far, so I wont make a final judgement for awhile.

**G Child** · 06-29-2003, 07:02 PM

^
^
^
^

**Gettin'Old** · 06-30-2003, 02:33 PM

Can anyone confirm the clomid is hard on the liver. I was planning on doing it for only 2 weeks but the article has me rethinking that.

**bermich** · 06-30-2003, 09:18 PM

Excellent post on Clomid and post cycle. Exactly what I was looking for and curious about. So many people say the same thing about running clomid and anti es but really no links to studies on individuals with results.
G Child. Do you actually type anything in your posts? I read a few threads and you always have just periods or symbols

You post whore

**WiLLpOwEr** · 07-01-2003, 10:53 AM

I still say running Nolvadex for 8 weeks with 20mg every day is the way to go.

**inertia** · 07-01-2003, 11:02 AM

Heres what our resident HRT-phd SWALE has to say about this article at SBI..

The first report is of great interest. However, the second one is total poppycock. All they really did in that one is destroy Leydig cells, and thus induce primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while trying to treat secondary hypogonadism (which is usually temporary in AAS athletes), by employing toxic amounts of HCG . I prefer guys never use more than 500IU of it per day.

Also, the author notes that a testosterone patch causes suppression, but apparently is oblivious to the fact that HCG does, too. The notion that HCG can "jump-start" the HPTA is now obsolete for this reason. It's value is in restoring the testes to form and function (during the cycle) as doing so shortens the time of recovery.

**inertia** · 07-01-2003, 11:15 AM

LOL@ poppycock,what is that? he must be old

**Rookiejay** · 09-04-2003, 07:15 PM

Great post - bump for more discussion and thoughts about running Clomid for 2 months.......

**G Child** · 09-04-2003, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by bermich

G Child. Do you actually type anything in your posts? I read a few threads and you always have just periods or symbols

You post whore

Silence woman!

Actually I don't like to type "bump"
I use ^ instead, plus some posts I would like added to my subscribed threads...

**G Child** · 09-04-2003, 07:33 PM

^^^^

**ItalianMuscle** · 09-04-2003, 07:35 PM

Great Read Bro !

**Snarf** · 09-04-2003, 10:37 PM

The HCG is actually suppressive to the HPTA but will kick test levels up, so really you would need another follow up at 4 weeks following discontinuation of post-cylce therapy to see if these lab values hold. You might very well see test dump again as the effects of the HCG diminish.

I would think the HCG would be used for the first last 2 weeks of a cycle, plus the first two weeks of post-cycle. Or better yet, use a maintenance dosage during your whole cycle so your testes never atrophy. I use 500IU every week just to keep things working and avoid the high doses that can permenantly burn out the leydig cells.