New Member
I read something about Clomid and Estrogen, i know that many people use Estrogen after their cycles to recover Testosterone.
I want to know if somedody here have used estrogen after the cycle and if you did examinations of testosterone level???
So, i want to know if Estrogen can really do this job.
references:
http://www.geekbabe.com/janarene/transs.html
Last edited by Glauber-(BRAZIL); 07-07-2003 at 05:32 PM.
AR Vet / Retired
Yes it can, Ive done it. IT took alot longer though...believe IIRC it was about 6wks worth compared to 3 of clomid.
Associate Member
BB, did you use hCG or did you just run nolva alone? Also, how would you compare the 2 from a personal standpoint, ie. were gains better kept, emotional sides etc.? Do you feel nolva superior to clomid as post cycle reocvery agent? Reason being is that (and I am sure you have read them), but there are a few studies I have read stating clomid increases SHBG, while nolva does the opposite. Did you notice anything to this effect? It does seem that nolva is more potent than clomid on a mg per mg basis, and if nolva does infact decrease SHBG to any significant degree, it would seem to be superior in this regard. But the fact remains that the only anecdotal evidence seems to be from personal experiences. Since we know we have very little endogenous test after cycle, by using something that decreases the primary protein (SHBG) that binds test and prevents it from binding the AR, nolva would seem to be a promising agent. The conflict between the two drugs seems to remain, but it would be interesting to get a majority of peoples responses to this. Clomid has traditionally been viewed as the better of the two, but I don't know if this is just because people have never ran nolva as post cycle recovery agent, or if clomid truly is superior? There is no doubt that both agents work in the hypo/pituitary to help restore LH and subsequently endogenous test production, but to which is superior seems to be debated.
Personally, I have not tried nolva alone as a post cycle agent, so I can't comment from a personal point. Thx for the input, and anyone else with personal experience is welcome to reply as well.
Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate
New Member
Nobody here have used nolvadex?
Anabolic Member
Huh
Associate Member
There was a great debate on the bodybuilding.com forums about this. Basically use both. Some prefer to substitute the nolva for arimidex.
RB
New Member
If your cycle is heavy enough, I would use Nolva and Proviron together, that does a great job for the anti e's and recovery.
Associate Member
Proviron shuts you down...
AR Vet / Retired
Ive done it about every way there is.
Nolva
Clomid
Arimidex
HCG
and any combo you can think of with the above.
I always use HCG 500ius for 20 days followed my Clomid. I always run nolva the entire cycle and post cycle so its in there too.
On a comparison basis alone, I find Clomid much superior than Nolva. I find Clomid along much superior than Nolva+HCG as well.
Senior Member
I got this from Hammer Head... a while back. I didn't have time to find his post but saved this in word... For a long time I couldn't get clomid and only nolvadex... Then the dollars where higher and then some people bad reaction... ok anyway this is long but an awesome read... Thank Hammer for posting it though...
Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
Here's a good read on Nolvadex and why I prefer Nolvadex to Clomid for post-cycle HPTA recovery.
Basically Clomid is to Nolvadex as codeine is to morphine. They are structurally alike - they both do the same damn thing - but Nolvadex is alot more powreful and in many ways more effective. It is our perception of these 2 compounds that needs adjustment.
This article is posted on
Mind and Muscle online magazine Enjoy!
Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
By William Llewellyn
Editors Note: I am extremely pleased to have Bill Llewellyn contributing an article for us this week. For those who are unaware, he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition, one of the most innovative companies in this business. Along with Avant Labs and ErgoPharm, Molecular Nutrition is one of the few companies dedicated to putting forth only those products backed by legitimate research, rather than excessive hype and other such B.S. Two products, in particular, that deserve to be more well-known are Viritase, a potent anti-estrogen, and Boldione, a boldenone precursor. To find out more about these, and the rest of their products, I reccomend that you head over to their website -- but only after you have finsished reading big Mf'r and spent all of your money on our products, of course
Now, on to the article:
Introduction
I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
Conclusion
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.
References:
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7
2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
Junior Member
anyone knows where to get the above papers. tried google but usually require subcriptions ($$$) and i don't feel particularly rich.
cheers.
dipsy.
AR-Hall of Famer
Clomid is better in my opinion. We used nolva before clomid was around and like billy said it takes longer. Both is ideal but if you have to choose one then take clomid.
Junior Member
I started post cycle with clomid but the sides forced me to switch to nolva on day 13. Ran nolva for an extended time and besides from a total lack of motivation recovery went just fine.
New Member
What do you mean??? I have used Proviron for 10 days and my Testosterone level continued the same. Proviron don't inhibit Test. natural production.
New Member
oh man... are you stupid? just use clomid! why complicate it?
Maybe you can try bananas jungle boy...
Retired Moderator
What's better to run with the clomid...N-dex or A-dex?
AR Vet / Retired
It will inhibit actually, just like var and primo also will
AR Vet / Retired
Id go with Nolva...its cheaper and you dont need something as strong as Ari really. Ive used Aromasin before with it and didnt tell a difference from Nolva.
Retired Moderator
At what dosage? 10mg ED N-dex or say .25mg ED A-dex.
A-dex is cheaper for me if only using a quater of the pill.
AR Vet / Retired
Ive always used 20mg ED. .5mg ED should be fine.
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