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  1. #1
    new guy is offline New Member
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    sust 250 question

    i ve been reading these forums for about 3 weeks now na di have learned a great deal, but i have a few simple newbie questions to ask. i was thinking about takins sust 250, because that was what i thought was the best all around thing to start with. but from reading these forums im not to sure. in want to get the greatest results i can achieve, but most of the forums say you should at least take sust 500 to see good result. this will be my first cycle and i just want to do it right the first time. i have also heard that the load process of cycling is a waste is this true? if someone could help me out it would be grealty appreciated.

  2. #2
    sweet's Avatar
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    I would consider using test ethanate or cyprionate instead of sustanon . You can atain more stable blood concentrations with single esters.

  3. #3
    Endurance is offline Associate Member
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    Loading is completely optional.....maybe try some d-bol instead the first couple of weeks. And what you will find on this Q is that some people hate multi esters and some wouldn't think of not using sus in their cycle......so its just personnal preference

  4. #4
    inertia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweet
    I would consider using test ethanate or cyprionate instead of sustanon. You can atain more stable blood concentrations with single esters.
    I think thats debateable,the active testosterone release times are almost identical in sust and enan.IMO either or would yeild you almost the same results.The question is getting the better price per brand and using the most reliable source-so you dont get scammed.I personally agree with the frontload process.Just My 2cc's

    nersh
    Last edited by inertia; 07-01-2003 at 09:13 AM.

  5. #5
    sweet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inertia
    I think thats debateable,the active testosterone release times are almost identical in sust and enan
    How do you find this? The prop ester will only hold the release of the test for a few days, as well as the phenelprop ester as compaired to the isocaproate and decanoate at a few weeks. It seem it would be much simpler to use one ester with a frontload to atain somewhat stable levels compaired to trying to balance 4 different esters. There is also the issue of wasting the 30mg of prop, I think it is safe to say that to be effective prop should be injected at least EOD. Lets face it 30mg of prop x2/week will do nothing for you. Test E or cyp tends to be cheaper as well, less complication, cheaper and more bang for your buck. Seems like a good deal to me.
    Last edited by sweet; 07-01-2003 at 10:33 AM.

  6. #6
    inertia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweet
    How do you find this? The prop ester will only hold the release of the test for a few days, as well as the phenelprop ester as compaired to the isocaproate and decanoate at a few weeks. It seem it would be much simpler to use one ester with a frontload to atain somewhat stable levels compaired to trying to balance 4 different esters. There is also the issue of wasting the 30mg of prop, I think it is safe to say that to be effective prop should be injected at least EOD. Lets face it 30mg of prop x2/week will do nothing for you. Test E or cyp tends to be cheaper as well, less complication, cheaper and more bang for your buck. Seems like a good deal to me.

    This is about the only rational explanation as to how people are gaining 32 lbs running 500mgs of sust/wk.Heres why,IMO...SG can explain the reasoning better than myself.

    posted by SG @muscletalk

    Guys, I'll only argue this once, since I don't feel like getting in any kind of fight over this. When you analyze the release times of a steroid ester, you find out it isn't an exact science, it is front-loaded and most of the active component, in this case testosterone , is released in the first 24 hours, decreasing after that. Refer to the following graphs. They illustrate ACTIVE milligrams of testosterone, factoring in ~6% waste on 250mg of Sustanon and 250mg of Enanthate shot every three days.

    they are almost identical. If anyone wants to go over the data for these graphs, I'll go into more detail. There's a lot to understand about steroid esters and how they work. You have to understand that just because a steroid has a long-acting ester does NOT mean it does not release anything in the first 24 hours or 48 hours it is in your body.

    You also need to understand that a HALF-LIFE of 1 or 2 days does not mean a DEAD life of 1 or 2 days, it means that you only have HALF left. It also does not mean that if you shoot 100mg of testosterone with a half-life of 2 days that over the course of 48 hours you have a perfectly linear release of testosterone into your bloodstream of 50mg. Depending on the ester used (and to a small degree the individual) you would have approximately 35mg released in the first 24 hours, and about 15mg in the second 24 hours. This might even be a little cautious on the distribution, it could be closer to 40/10.

    If you look at the distribution of esters and their releases over the first 24 hours of administration, sustanon looks something like this for day one:

    Ester Half-life mg Day 1
    Sustanon
    Propionate 2 30 10
    Phenylpropionate3 60 12
    isocaproate 6 60 7
    decanoate 8 100 10

    39

    Compare that to enanthate's first 24 hours of release, which is a single ester, so easier to estimate: 35mg. Day 2 is 29 and 30, sust, enanthate, respectively. When you should again on Day 4 (E3D), you have approximately 59.5mg of active test from sustanon in your system in that next 24 hours and 55mg of active test in your system from enanthate. The graphs speak for themselves.

    If you reference Anabolics 2002, by William Llewellyn, page 159, you'll see that one study showed the release of enanthate to be even more aggressive than my estimates.

    It's actually much simpler to treat them both as having an approximate 5-day half-life. The esters, when totalled in mg active in your blood, are nearly identical after the first week.
    Last edited by inertia; 07-01-2003 at 10:56 AM.

  7. #7
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    Whats your age?

    If your 23 and up, shoot it 250mg E3D. If your younger than that, rethink your cycle

  8. #8
    sweet's Avatar
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    Interesting, I have never seen those graphs before. This is what I was basing my argument on

    Originally posted by Cycleon

    One of the most misunderstood ideals when it comes to Sustanon is how to properly use it in a cycle. There is no wrong way, but there is a best way to administer proper dosages so you can fully benefit from the esters in Sustanon. Sustanon was developed for the primary reason of hormone replacement, and because of the mix of esters most patients only needed one shot a month to keep their hormone levels balanced. Because of this design, the bodybuilder will not receive proper doseages at once or twice a week injections. Your blood levels will fluctuate up and down continuously, which is not what you want while on a cycle. You want stable levels to give your body the best chance it can have to build plenty of muscle. All test is the same, but only once the ester is removed. People that say test is test are wrong unless you are assuming that the ester has already been removed. I have had plenty of different results from the different tests I have used, as well as I am sure you have too. The secret to making sus work correctly, is timing the esters so the blood levels do not fluctuate.

    I will assume that everyone knows how an ester works and why one is added to the parent testosterone . With sustanon, you have 4 esters: 30mg of prop 60mg of phenylprop 60mg of isocaproate 100mg of deconate Combined to give you 250mg. Now everyone knows for themselves how much test they should take due to previous cycles or no cycles at all. Let's take each ester and see how long they will stay active in the body.
    30mg of prop--Prop needs to be injected at least every other day to get the full benefits of the test. I think every third day is a little too long to wait, although some people may disagree. Now let's say you are doing a prop only cycle and injecting 30mg twice a week. You can see already that is a waste of gear. If you inject 30mg of prop twice a week you are totally wasting your time. You will NOT grow off of this, so you can basically take sus and knock it down to 220mg an amp if you are injecting once or twice a week.

    60 mg of phenylprop--Phenylprop is not that much different than prop. You can get away with injecting the phenylprop ester every third day. Anyone that has taken nandrolone with a phenylprop ester knows that it is shorter acting and must be injected twice a week (for example, *******'s powder). If injected twice a week, then let's even cushion the amount, you will have all 120 mg in one week.

    To recap, so far this is what you get the first week---180 mg of test in your system. If you ask me that was a waste of two amps. That is barely enough to supress the axis, and that is about all you will have happen if you inject 180mg of test per week. Now let's look at the longer acting esters in sus.

    60mg of Isocaproate--Isocaproate will give you a duration of about a week before it is let go. This is not bad, but at 60 mg you are still not getting enough test to make it worth the time.
    100mg of Deconate--Here is the daddy of the four esters. This is the same ester that is used in Deca -Durabolin . The deconate ester should really average out at 2 weeks, but has been said to last up to 3. This ester was added at a 100mg dose to balance out the quicker acting esters used in sustanon.

    If we review one more time, we can see roughly how much test we will have in our body per week when we use sus, and hopefully you can see it is very low. You can pretty much take out the prop and phenylprop until about week 3 or 4, because once the other esters release the test and it gets time to build up in the system, the prop and phenylprop is useless. Not until around week six are you going to get your test levels high enough to do any good, and if you are on a 10 week cycle and start tapering week 8, then your test have been only relatively high for about 2-3 weeks. Call me crazy, but that is not at all what I want in a cycle. Every test cycle should be started high to hit those receptors hard, and I don't even taper at the end (but that is a different story).

    The numbers that BIGDAWG and I worked on basically show that your test levels will never at one time be stable for more that a couple of weeks. Why do you think that people say they have less bloat on sus and less sides. There is so little of the short acting test in your system at one time that it is impossible to get any bloat or side effects at all. So you ask, well what is the best way to take sus then? First, I would answer don't buy it. If you really want to use a 4 blend test then buy some of the old omna (not the new ones), they have more shorter acting tests in them and the blood levels will stay more equal. If you don't believe me, ask anyone that has used the old omna and they will tell you they got quite a bit of bloat from it. Reason being is the shorter acting esters in the omna build up your blood levels quicker, hence you have the bloat factor. If someone doesn't like my first answer, then I will give them a second, "inject the sus everyday or at the least every other day." I usually get the "wholly @#%$, that's crazy!!!" answer. I usually tell them back, no it's not crazy, it's science. The actual science of sus combined with a bodybuilder's needs equal injecting every day. People seem to forget about the esters and think they are injecting all of 1750mg each week and getting every mg of it. Trust me folks, I am not talking about injecting 7 amps a week for 10 weeks, I am suggesting injecting an amp a day for 3 weeks, and letting the esters do thier work after that. When you crunch the numbers, for the first two weeks you are really only getting the prop, phenylprop, and a little of the isocaproate. Maybe about 700-750 mg for the first two weeks, and for weeks after that when all of the isocaproate and deconate kick in you will stay aroung 600-800mg for weeks following the first couple. You have a perfect taper, if you are into that, and stable test levels. If you go to eod, it will vary a bit, but not enough to really make too much of a difference. Start off the cycle with 5 weeks of dbol while using the sus, and when you are done with the sustanon, then immediately start injecting two anabolics like eq and deca, or deca and primo/winny. This is a cycle that a lot of the pros are using called front end loading with an anabolic taper. I guinea pigged this idea when BIGDAWG and I were discussing it many months back, and damn it was a really good cycle. Not as good as 1000mg of aratest a week, but still a pretty good cycle. I have cycled sus/omna both ways, and trained relatively the same with the same kind of diet. The difference in the two cycles were like night and day, about a 15-17 pound difference, and two amps of omna a week was my first cycle too. You know, the one you are supposed to grow the most off of because of the virgin receptors. So test may be test, but you will not get the same results from every ester out there if you dont know how to time them. If you are thinking of a sus/omna cycle, give this a try. I promise you will not be disappointed, and you just may thank me and DAWG later......peace

    I think it is safe to say, there are arguments to both sides of the issue. I think this argument has been going on for years. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

  9. #9
    inertia's Avatar
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    No sweat sweet,ive read this before.Next time you hear of someone gaining 30lbs running 500mgs sust,just consider this a reference.It is not my place but research and then research again.

    I used to think the same thing until i met some scientists on the boards that opened my mind.Just something to consider bro I dont want to get into any kind of debate,PEACE.

    nersh
    Last edited by inertia; 07-01-2003 at 11:13 AM.

  10. #10
    sweet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inertia
    Next time you hear of someone gaining 30lbs running 500mgs sust,just consider this a reference.It is not my place but research and then research again.
    Don't insinuate that I don't do my reaserch bro, there are 2 sides with valid point on this issue.There is nothing wrong with stating "this is what I think" I do have a problem with saying " I am right and you are wrong".

    sweet

  11. #11
    BigLarry is offline Associate Member
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    I would personally run enathate or cyp. or prop. I have done sust. before and it really wasent that great. I did the organon. I saw much better results running enathate 500 mgs. a week rather than 500mg. of sust.

  12. #12
    inertia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweet
    Don't insinuate that I don't do my reaserch bro, there are 2 sides with valid point on this issue.There is nothing wrong with stating "this is what I think" I do have a problem with saying " I am right and you are wrong".

    sweet
    You are very right there are two sides,and im not insinuating that you dont do your research,i dont even know you.It was intended to be a general statement and not targeting anyone.

    Going back and re-reading it i can understand your defensiveness(I apologise for the misunderstanding)it was meant for others reading this post and not just you.

    Here are two valid points on this subject for members think about,thats all......peace !i!i!

    peace
    nersh

  13. #13
    sweet's Avatar
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    No hard feelings here bro.

  14. #14
    inertia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweet
    No hard feelings here bro.
    And no disrespect

  15. #15
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    Billy_Bathgate is offline AR Vet / Retired
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    Actually, those graphs are wrong anyways. First off, the y-axis. To be a useful graph, what we are concerned about is plasma concentrations. What is mg supposed to be, how on earth was that measured? I understand how you could jsut take half lifes of the drugs and plot something out real quick, but we want to see the blood levels, as thats whats the real issue. It should have something measured in say ug/dl or such.

    Having said that, Sust and Enanthates are actually pretty close to the same anyways....and they should be, as the actual mg/testosterone is nearly identical Keep in mind, the highest rate of release from the depot is the second it is created. I know some (not implying anyone inparticular here) think that it instead starts very very slow and then rapidly releases which is wrong.

  16. #16
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    All that doctor stuff hurts. People gain good muscle off of Sust??? If so good. Cause that is what I have been using. Next cycle I will try single est and see the difference.

  17. #17
    inertia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate
    Actually, those graphs are wrong anyways. First off, the y-axis. To be a useful graph, what we are concerned about is plasma concentrations. What is mg supposed to be, how on earth was that measured? I understand how you could jsut take half lifes of the drugs and plot something out real quick, but we want to see the blood levels, as thats whats the real issue. It should have something measured in say ug/dl or such.

    Having said that, Sust and Enanthates are actually pretty close to the same anyways....and they should be, as the actual mg/testosterone is nearly identical Keep in mind, the highest rate of release from the depot is the second it is created. I know some (not implying anyone inparticular here) think that it instead starts very very slow and then rapidly releases which is wrong.
    I agree on the crayola graph but id like to see a true blood concentration graph done on sust and enan,which I have not.Even if it were an accurate graph using units ug/dl they would be very similar,IMO.This graph is not an explanation on half lives and you dont measure blood contrencation levels by mg,to vague and maybe exaggerated or overly simplified.

    The point being people seem to believe that you cant run sust effectively under 1g/wk which is another misunderstanding.You CAN get your gains similar to enan @ 500mgs of sust/wk and the two are more closely related than people perceive.Point being!

    I always wondered why people gained 32 lbs off 500mgs omna and this is the most fitting explanation for me other than diet.

    Thx for chiming in BB.

    nersh

  18. #18
    lew
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    So sust should be run minimal E3D, if i wanted to run less test then 500mg so 350-400mg i should use a single est, enth, cyp??

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