First cycle and I'm feeling drained and just wore out.

**Preston10** · 05-05-2016, 09:09 AM

So this is my first cycle. I'm 4 weeks into it. I'm taking TEST C 250 every 3 days and started winny ED last week. All this week I've just felt wore out and hardly want to do anything unless I'm in the gym. I'm not sure if I'm over doing it in the gym or its the gear.
I go to the gym 5 days a week. I've been eating pretty clean. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I'm 23
5'9
195 lbs
About 17% bf

**numbere** · 05-05-2016, 09:17 AM

You are too young to be experimenting with AAS.

You're probably going to screw yourself up for the rest of your life.

Even if you were old enough your body fat is too high to cycle.

High bf makes controlling e2 difficult.

It doesn't seem like your taking an AI.

I bet your e2 is through the roof.

Stop now and you probably don't need PCT, continue with this cycle and you face a strong possibility of being on trt for 50 years.

**AR's King Silabolin** · 05-05-2016, 09:24 AM

17% is maybe too high so most likely its your estrogen causing your troubles.
But futher investigation lies on your AI. Do you use one and at what dosages?

BTW, you should drop the winny rigth away. Since it is your first, you have to dial in the testo before you go to next level.

BTW, numbere is a little harsh these days. Think he has sleeping problemes. But who hasnt...anyway, you are not too young. Youngish but 23 is ok. But at the very lowest side. Lifetime destruction is most likely not going to happen running moderate test wrong and you already have entered the forum and want to learn. 50 years on trt from this one..come on man.

**numbere** · 05-05-2016, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Silabolin

17% is maybe too high so most likely its your estrogen causing your troubles.
But futher investigation lies on your AI. Do you use one and at what dosages?

BTW, you should drop the winny rigth away. Since it is your first, you have to dial in the testo before you go to next level.

BTW, numbere is a little harsh these days. Think he has sleeping problemes. But who hasnt...anyway, you are not too young. Youngish but 23 is ok. But at the very lowest side. Lifetime destruction is most likely not going to happen running moderate test wrong and you already have entered the forum and want to learn. 50 years on trt from this one..come on man.

"1/2 Like"

I have a difficult time sleeping when worrying about all these young adults using AAS too soon and running sub par cycles.

**Preston10** · 05-05-2016, 09:51 AM

I'm currently not taking any AI but was thinking about getting adex. Do you think that would help with this?
And I'll drop the winny.

**Preston10** · 05-05-2016, 09:54 AM

Yeah I get where numbere is coming from though. I should have waited and done a little more research first but hey you live and learn. I'll probably finish this cycle and do a he'll of a lot more research before I even think about doing another.

**AR's King Silabolin** · 05-05-2016, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by numbere

"1/2 Like"

I have a difficult time sleeping when worrying about all these young adults using AAS too soon and running sub par cycles.

lol..

Preston, yeah, you should def add dex or sin and dial in correct dosage. Im 95% sure thats why you feel bad. Drop the winny and finish up if you notice improvement from the ai. And start a hell of a pct research and do that shit rigth. Something to start with; Clomid 100 50 50 50, Nolva 40 20 20 20, mk677 20 20 20 20 20 20. The mk677 is an exellent cortisol inheriter and i had my best recovery ever when i implemented mk in my last pct. Didnt even use nolva.

**Preston10** · 05-05-2016, 11:10 AM

How much dex do you think? .25 EOD?

**Back In Black** · 05-05-2016, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Preston10

How much dex do you think? .25 EOD?

Yes,thats a good start.

No mention of HCG either, can you get some?

And read this

My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

**Metalject** · 05-05-2016, 03:54 PM

Don't listen to these idiots saying 17% is too high. That's not fat and they're just regurgitating a meaningless number they've heard spouted, that's it. If anyone can prove with data that 17% BF is going to cause problem with gear use, actual data, not theory based on what bigsam48XL said on some other board, I'd love to read it.

Issues:
1. Your estrogen may be too high, possible.
2. You said you're eating really clean. are you eating too little?
3. Could be going through a phase, we all go through them. Just a natural part of life.

Personally, I hate HCG on cycle, cannot stand it. I understand the reasoning for it and why many choose to use it but I will never touch it again. It makes things much more difficult to balance for me and I feel much better without it.

**InternalFire** · 05-05-2016, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Metalject

Personally, I hate HCG on cycle, cannot stand it. I understand the reasoning for it and why many choose to use it but I will never touch it again. It makes things much more difficult to balance for me and I feel much better without it.

My apologies for cutting in here with nothing constructive to say to the OP, but could you elaborate more on why exactly do you avoid HCG , if want go more in detail please PM me, Im interested to know, very much.

**Metalject** · 05-05-2016, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by InsaneMuscle

My apologies for cutting in here with nothing constructive to say to the OP, but could you elaborate more on why exactly do you avoid HCG, if want go more in detail please PM me, Im interested to know, very much.

I can't control my estrogen with it. No matter how much AI I take my estradiol skyrockets. It doesn't matter the combo of HCG dose and AI dose or type of AI. And any AI I use is prescription, not underground.

**numbere** · 05-05-2016, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Metalject

Don't listen to these idiots saying 17% is too high. That's not fat and they're just regurgitating a meaningless number they've heard spouted, that's it. If anyone can prove with data that 17% BF is going to cause problem with gear use, actual data, not theory based on what bigsam48XL said on some other board, I'd love to read it.

...

Disagreeing with me is fine, but I resent being called an idiot.

The less fat you have the less likely you are to develop side effects from cycling.

Androgen Receptor Gene CAG Repeat Length and Body Mass Index Modulate the Safety of Long-Term Intramuscular Testosterone Undecanoate Therapy in Hypogonadal Men

The lower your bf the more effective exogenous test becomes.

Body Fat Content and Testosterone Pharmacokinetics Determine
Gonadotropin Suppression After Intramuscular Injections of Testosterone Preparations in Normal Men

Higher bf increases the rate at which DHT is deactivated in the body.

Androgen inactivation and steroid-converting enzyme expression in abdominal adipose tissue in men

**ocman** · 05-05-2016, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Preston10

All this week I've just felt wore out and hardly want to do anything unless I'm in the gym. I'm not sure if I'm over doing it in the gym or its the gear.

Sounds like your estradiol is high, you need to get a blood test, the sensitive assay for E2.

************* is where I go.

**Metalject** · 05-05-2016, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by numbere

Disagreeing with me is fine, but I resent being called an idiot.

The less fat you have the less likely you are to develop side effects from cycling.

Androgen Receptor Gene CAG Repeat Length and Body Mass Index Modulate the Safety of Long-Term Intramuscular Testosterone Undecanoate Therapy in Hypogonadal Men

The lower your bf the more effective exogenous test becomes.

Body Fat Content and Testosterone Pharmacokinetics Determine
Gonadotropin Suppression After Intramuscular Injections of Testosterone Preparations in Normal Men

Higher bf increases the rate at which DHT is deactivated in the body.

Androgen inactivation and steroid-converting enzyme expression in abdominal adipose tissue in men

The 15% number that's often thrown around, is to me, very arbitrary. It's a number that's floated around the net for years but there's nothing to back it up. Why not 17%, why not 16.5%, why not 18.8%, why not 14%? Further, and there's no way to prove this in back and forth messaging, but I believe most have no idea what other's body fat is much less their own. People will often post pics of ab shots but that's only a small fraction of the equation. Everyone carries fat in different areas. Myself, I carry almost no fat in my legs, even if seriously overweight my legs are still veiny and if I posted a pic of just my legs no one would say I'm over 15% despite in my current state definitely being over that.

As for using gear itself, one thing that's always been confusing to me is how the rules and facts of a steroid change in people's mind if we're talking about medical or recreational use. Sure, doses and things change but the way a particular steroid functions does not. No TRT doctor would deny a low testosterone patient TRT because he's overweight. In fact, he'd prescribe it with one of the benefits being helping the individual get his weight under control, which is one of the primary selling points of TRT, one of many.

Equally important, while a TRT patient may experience higher levels of aromatase activity if overweight, this can be controlled through AI's. Why is it any different for the recreational user? It's not. Now if we're talking about a morbidly obese individual, sure, my opinion would be altered, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about a normal individual with a normal body fat percentage.

Regardless of body fat, morbidly obese excluded, if a man controls the following there is no reason for him to have issues:

*E2
*Blood thickness
*Prostate
*Cardiovascular health

The link provided about DHT, looks like it's talking about naturally occurring DHT in the body and did not account for supplementation, which would change everything.

As for the idiot remark, nothing personal and nothing more than a little tongue and cheek to make a point. If you were offended, it wasn't intended.

**numbere** · 05-06-2016, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Metalject

The 15% number that's often thrown around, is to me, very arbitrary. It's a number that's floated around the net for years but there's nothing to back it up. Why not 17%, why not 16.5%, why not 18.8%, why not 14%? Further, and there's no way to prove this in back and forth messaging, but I believe most have no idea what other's body fat is much less their own. People will often post pics of ab shots but that's only a small fraction of the equation. Everyone carries fat in different areas. Myself, I carry almost no fat in my legs, even if seriously overweight my legs are still veiny and if I posted a pic of just my legs no one would say I'm over 15% despite in my current state definitely being over that.

As for using gear itself, one thing that's always been confusing to me is how the rules and facts of a steroid change in people's mind if we're talking about medical or recreational use. Sure, doses and things change but the way a particular steroid functions does not. No TRT doctor would deny a low testosterone patient TRT because he's overweight. In fact, he'd prescribe it with one of the benefits being helping the individual get his weight under control, which is one of the primary selling points of TRT, one of many.

Equally important, while a TRT patient may experience higher levels of aromatase activity if overweight, this can be controlled through AI's. Why is it any different for the recreational user? It's not. Now if we're talking about a morbidly obese individual, sure, my opinion would be altered, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about a normal individual with a normal body fat percentage.

Regardless of body fat, morbidly obese excluded, if a man controls the following there is no reason for him to have issues:

*E2
*Blood thickness
*Prostate
*Cardiovascular health

The link provided about DHT, looks like it's talking about naturally occurring DHT in the body and did not account for supplementation, which would change everything.

As for the idiot remark, nothing personal and nothing more than a little tongue and cheek to make a point. If you were offended, it wasn't intended.

I understand your point about 15% bf being an arbitrary number and that different genetics/nationalities hold excess bf in different locations. However, when giving advice over the internet, with no human to human contact, we need to start somewhere. We use lots numbers in this lifestyle that can be considered arbitrary.

Almost all the advice threads are situational, each is unique. Had you made this argument in a thread where OP was 40 years old, had previously cycled, biked to work every morning, and worked out a few time per week then it would be silly to tell him not to cycle at 17% bf.

However, we’re talking about a 23 year old young adult who didn’t even do enough research to know how important it is to take an AI. How many more red flags need to be raised before you see that he has no business using AAS?

There’s a large difference between an overweight man going on TRT and an overweight man doing a cycle. E2, along with other side effects, would be easier to control with a TRT dose and under a doctor’s care. This is regurgitating the main point of my last post.

When you call someone an idiot in a public form, unless you denote it as a joke or you’re friends, then it’s an insult.