The old Tren/Test Debate. Advice needed

[Heatonx13]

Hey guys,

I've spent hours reading through forums and this is the first time I've actually registered for one. Looking forward to being active on here with several of you. So my question/dilemma is the ever going debate between high/low test and high/low tren. I've read through many threads and I see several that say to take the test lower then the tren and many others that say take the test higher. So here's a little about me and the cycle I started last week.

I'm 32, 5'10", 205lbs, body fat %..........I want to say about 18 to 19% but don't make fun if I got this wrong; I added a picture below so be nice. I started my first cycle back when I was 24 and this would be my fifth cycle throughout the years. I'm in the gym five days a week now and just started a good diet.

My cycle and gear on hand:

Week 1-12 Test E 250 @ 250mg (125 x2 week)
Week 1-10 Tren E 200 @ 450mg (225 x2 week)
Week 8-12 Mast 200 @ 300mg (150 x2 week)

I have Aromasin on stand-by for gyno

PCT
I have HCG, Clomid, and Nolvadex on hand

So there you have it. I've put this together based off of information I've read in many forums but please give me your best advice. Do you think it's better to go with a higher test or lower test when taking tren? I have plenty of HCG(25,000 IU) so should I add that into the cycle? While these questions have been asked many times throughout the years I just want to throw it out there once again. If I missed anything please ask and I will answer.

[Dj Screw]

Don't keep Aromasin "on stand by for gyno" it needs to be run throughout the cycle to prevent gyno and other more important high e2 sides, if you try and treat it with aromasin after you already have gyno then it is too late. gyno isnt the only high e2 symptom either....run armosin throughout cycle. You are also almost for sure going to run into high e2 side effects with your high body fat...to be blunt it is very stupid trying to cycle at a high body fat % especially without an AI

HCG shouldn't be used for PCT, and should be used durring cycle to keep your testicles somewhat functioning so they do not completely shut down. Do not use it in PCT because it will actually suppress your testicluar function which is obviously the opposite of what you are trying to do durring PCT.

You already started your cycle a week ago and you are looking for advice to change doses already? Sounds like you were not ready for this cycle, especially with the "aromasin on stand by" and HCG durring PCT. Your body fat is wayy to high to be running a cycle, you will run into problems/side effects. You should stop cycling and get your body fat to 15% then try to cycle after that.

To answer your question it is completely opinionated on what to run higher or lower, everyone is different. The smart way (in my opinion) is to run Test at a TRT dose 150-250mg per week and run Tren at a max of 400mg pw, if you need more Tren than that then there is something wrong with your training or diet. Running it this way will make sure Tren is the dominant androgen in your body and you should also experience less sides with lower test. Tren is 5x more anabolic than testosterone so there is no need to run high doses of both in my opinion but I am sure some people will disagree.

Good luck

[Bio-Active]

What is your cycle experience? Hcg should be run during your cycle and discontinued 3 days prior to starting pct. Your ai should be run during the cycle right up yo pct as well

[Heatonx13]

The HCG is used before the PCT during the two week gap after the last injection to get the boys to drop; discontinuing it three days before starting clomid/nolva. I've read that this a very good method when taking tren. I consider this apart of the PCT process but I should have clearified. I don't think my body fat % is too high to cycle. With tren and proper dieting I'll drop fast just in time to have the masteron be effective. While I've heard of the 15% Golden Rule, I believe it's BS. I might take this seriously if I was above 20%, but I believe that this cycle would work great and be very effective. Great advice with the aromasin. I should have enough to cycle throughout the cycle. Deciding to increase or decrease dosage is common so I don't understand why this would be an issue, but it seems from what you stated that I'm technically already doing the cycle right since I'm doing the exact dosage you mentioned.......so I believe I'm ready for this cycle.

Bio my first cycle was Sustanon alone. The second was deca/test which gave me great gains. After that I've mostly stuck with test E 250 and I added masteron into my last cycle late 2015.

[Dj Screw]

The HCG is used before the PCT during the two week gap after the last injection to get the boys to drop; discontinuing it three days before starting clomid/nolva. I've read that this a very good method when taking tren. I consider this apart of the PCT process but I should have clearified. I don't think my body fat % is too high to cycle. With tren and proper dieting I'll drop fast just in time to have the masteron be effective. Great advice with the aromasin. Deciding to increase or decrease dosage is common so I don't understand why this would be an issue, but it seems from what you stated that I'm technically already doing the cycle right since I'm doing the exact dosage you mentioned.......so I believe I'm ready for this cycle.

Bio my first cycle was Sustanon alone. The second was deca/test which gave me great gains. After that I've mostly stuck with test E 250 and I added masteron into my last cycle late 2015.

You can use HCG whenever you want before,after, durring, or in another lifetime but the smartest way to go about it is to use it durring cycle from the start so your testicles never completely shut down. That is the best method whether you are using tren/test/dbol/deca whatever...at the end of the day being shut down is being shut down, I would prefer to have my testicles functioning the whole time rather than letting them die and hopefully come back to full strength when I randomly use HCG before PCT.

Your body fat % is for sure too high to cycle in my opinion some might disagree, and it's 100% without a doubt too high if you aren't going to use an AI throughout the entire cycle. Higher bodyfat% = more aromatization and that means more estrogen and that means more side effects and gyno. It's tuff to manage e2 even with an AI when you are overweight.

Deciding to increase or decrease the dose is very common.... but not after you have started the cycle. You want to avoid hormone flucuations and get to steady levels as fast as possible. Switching things up causes problems. Your dose of tren is wayy to high, especially since it is your first time using it...you don't need that much unless you are a professional bodybuilder or male model making money off of your body, which i doubt you are

I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to point you in the right direction

Good luck

[Bio-Active]

The HCG is used before the PCT during the two week gap after the last injection to get the boys to drop; discontinuing it three days before starting clomid/nolva. I've read that this a very good method when taking tren. I consider this apart of the PCT process but I should have clearified. I don't think my body fat % is too high to cycle. With tren and proper dieting I'll drop fast just in time to have the masteron be effective. While I've heard of the 15% Golden Rule, I believe it's BS. I might take this seriously if I was above 20%, but I believe that this cycle would work great and be very effective. Great advice with the aromasin. I should have enough to cycle throughout the cycle. Deciding to increase or decrease dosage is common so I don't understand why this would be an issue, but it seems from what you stated that I'm technically already doing the cycle right since I'm doing the exact dosage you mentioned.......so I believe I'm ready for this cycle.

Bio my first cycle was Sustanon alone. The second was deca/test which gave me great gains. After that I've mostly stuck with test E 250 and I added masteron into my last cycle late 2015.

Pick a dose and go with it that way if sides come up it is easier to manage. I know some people that like that method of blasting hcg for those 2 weeks before starting pct. I just like a lower dose through the cycle to keep the testies functioning the whole time rather then waking them back up

[MMA_Influenced]

You dont need arimidex so much for the gyno with a 19nor cycle (although i always think you should have it on hand) what you really need is some caber. Look it up

[Dj Screw]

You dont need arimidex so much for the gyno with a 19nor cycle (although i always think you should have it on hand) what you really need is some caber. Look it up

More like the exact opposite of what you said. LOL

You should always have a dopamine agonist on hand when running tren/deca but if you use an AI to keep your e2 in check then you won't have prolactin issues.
"Look it up"

[Heatonx13]

You can use HCG whenever you want before,after, durring, or in another lifetime but the smartest way to go about it is to use it durring cycle from the start so your testicles never completely shut down. That is the best method whether you are using tren/test/dbol/deca whatever...at the end of the day being shut down is being shut down, I would prefer to have my testicles functioning the whole time rather than letting them die and hopefully come back to full strength when I randomly use HCG before PCT.

Your body fat % is for sure too high to cycle in my opinion some might disagree, and it's 100% without a doubt too high if you aren't going to use an AI throughout the entire cycle. Higher bodyfat% = more aromatization and that means more estrogen and that means more side effects and gyno. It's tuff to manage e2 even with an AI when you are overweight.

Deciding to increase or decrease the dose is very common.... but not after you have started the cycle. You want to avoid hormone flucuations and get to steady levels as fast as possible. Switching things up causes problems. Your dose of tren is wayy to high, especially since it is your first time using it...you don't need that much unless you are a professional bodybuilder or male model making money off of your body, which i doubt you are

I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to point you in the right direction

Good luck

I know you meant well with your post. I've read through the body fat % and while 15% is golden it's really about your goals. I'm not trying to compete in a show, I'm trying to use the tren to cut the fat while eating clean and adding more cardio into the exercise. Now I know that if I'm not down to 10%-12% BF then I'd be wasting the masteron. I was thinking about throwing in a three week Clen right before that and see if I can get down faster. I will def look at the AI for higher BF% as you recommended if my chances for sides are increased. I've heard of people increasing their intake during a cycle so that's why I didn't see a problem adjusting my dosage if needed, but from your post it sounds like I'm taking the right amount.

I've got more then enough HCG to run through the entire cycle so I will start on Monday. I've used it right before the PCT and it's worked wonders, but never during cycle.

Thanks for all the advice. My biggest concern was the dosage argument that seems to be split on forums, but the other advice was great. I'm feeling really confident in this cycle and looking forward to seeing the results soon.

[MMA_Influenced]

More like the exact opposite of what you said. LOL

You should always have a dopamine agonist on hand when running tren/deca but if you use an AI to keep your e2 in check then you won't have prolactin issues.
"Look it up"

Geez looks like i got some bad info then. I havent used tren but have it on hand and bought some caber and was told that if you start to feel gyno with tren that you need caber not arimidex.

I read of people using AIs but still getting gyno because of the prolactin and not having caber on hand and going through hell thinking he had fake arimidex and ending up with gyno until he got some caber (I guess this is why you said always have it on hand)

Either way you clearly should have both

[Dj Screw]

Geez looks like i got some bad info then. I havent used tren but have it on hand and bought some caber and was told that if you start to feel gyno with tren that you need caber not arimidex.

I read of people using AIs but still getting gyno because of the prolactin and not having caber on hand and going through hell thinking he had fake arimidex and ending up with gyno until he got some caber (I guess this is why you said always have it on hand)

Either way you clearly should have both

You keep caber on hand mainly for libido/ed issues. If you keep your E2 in check then you will not get gyno. Don't listen to whoever told you this stuff.

Sure, people get gyno using AI's all the time....that's because their E2 is still high and they didn't get blood work done durring cycle to adjust the dose of their AI to prevent gyno and other high e2 sides. These people who don't get blood work wait until they actually get gyno THEN they up their AI dose which isn't going to do anything to stop the gyno that is already there and then they start thinking their AI is bunk. To be blunt these people are idiots and deserve it. If you can't afford or can't get blood work done you really shouldn't even be cycling...if you do then you are just asking for trouble

He ended up with gyno until he got Caber? Caber may help hold off gyno a little IF you have elevated E2...but it sure as hell isn't going to cure existing gyno like you are saying. You use ralox/nolva to hopefully cure existing gyno if you are lucky and that's it....or get surgery.

Where are you getting this info from man?

[FONZY007]

You keep caber on hand mainly for libido/ed issues. If you keep your E2 in check then you will not get gyno. Don't listen to whoever told you this stuff.

Sure, people get gyno using AI's all the time....that's because their E2 is still high and they didn't get blood work done durring cycle to adjust the dose of their AI to prevent gyno and other high e2 sides. These people who don't get blood work wait until they actually get gyno THEN they up their AI dose which isn't going to do anything to stop the gyno that is already there and then they start thinking their AI is bunk. To be blunt these people are idiots and deserve it. If you can't afford or can't get blood work done you really shouldn't even be cycling...if you do then you are just asking for trouble

He ended up with gyno until he got Caber? Caber may help hold off gyno a little IF you have elevated E2...but it sure as hell isn't going to cure existing gyno like you are saying. You use ralox/nolva to hopefully cure existing gyno if you are lucky and that's it....or get surgery.

Where are you getting this info from man?

I've always used high tren low test. Never had any issues always use arimidex. Have prami on hand but never had to use. Been lucky I guess, I just get freaking acne lol

[NACH3]

I always go higher test to tren/Deca/NPP/anything... It's always served me very well, usually in 2:1 ratio or close to it... But to each their own, whatever works best for YOU!

Always control your E2(and that means with an AI) from start to finish and in theory your prolactin 'should not' follow(unless it was elevated prior to cycle the I'd find the root cause of that first) - always have a DA(dopamine agonist) on hand until your mid cycle BW either caber(2x .25mgs wkly especially if trying with your AI) or prami(take at bed, may cause nausea, start at .125mgs for 3-4days then rite ate up to .25mgs until desired level is reached)

Run your AI from start of cycle then drop it prior to pct - run HCG throughout cycle at low dose(250iu 2x wkly - e3.5d) and run it up to 3 days prior to PCT...

[ILMDiver]

I have done 4 cycles with Test/Tren. Here is some advice that I have learned from my cycles and my friends.

- First, keeping your E2 in check will help keep prolactin from getting out of control. However, your AI dose is relative to the Testosterone you are taking because Tren does not really aromatize. I am taking 12.5mg of Aromasin daily. I am taking 300 Tren / 550 Test. I do recommend you get bloodworm for E2. My best friend and I are the same age and basic stats and he needs half the dose of Aromasin that I need.

- As far as high Test or Higher Tren, it should be whatever works and feels best for you. I have done both ways and an even mix 300/300 a week. I find I feel better with higher test, but my friend prefers an even mix.

- For help with prolactin, Dostinex should always be on hand, but 600mg of B6 daily will probably be all you need if you are on a moderate dose of Tren. There is an article from the NIH detailing the effective lowering of prolactin with B6. It works, but be safe and have the destined if needed.

Finally, if you are not familiar with Tren, I would not start with 450 a week of Tren E. If you have bad sides, it will take a long time to get over it. I would start with 200 a week Tren and do a cut. Also you could run the Masteron longer at a lower does and it makes the Tren and Test more effective. Without bloodworm, this is about all I can think of.

[Heatonx13]

I'm going to say that I'm loving my results 4 weeks into this cycle. Thank you so much for the advice

Beginning .... Week 4

[bobbypump]

looking good man