Test and Maintainace Calories?

[Mr. Small]

Just wondering what would happen if you only consume maintainance calories while on a cycle of test. Would there be any gains or a waste of a cycle?

[InternalFire]

wsup fellow of the same island,

probably you would do more of a cut on bodyfat and gain just minimal if any muscle doing so... so in a sense a waste of time, since you can cut without test and without any issues test will require you to keep an eye on, sterility/purity of the compounds, checking your bloods, acne, and E2 issues, the list may go on...

[Mr. Small]

Yeah, probably a waste, but my body fat went up on 2700 cals or so with 500mg of test for 12 weeks.

[InternalFire]

its called water retention, if 2700kcal were your maintenance range.

what are your stats?
Age
weight
height
bodyfat %

and lay out your full cycle in detail what have you used and how have you dosed etc

also share us your pct protocol

[Mr. Small]

its called water retention, if 2700kcal were your maintenance range.

what are your stats?
Age
weight
height
bodyfat %

and lay out your full cycle in detail what have you used and how have you dosed etc

also share us your pct protocol

41
160 lbs
5'7
Bf 17% ish

500mg test e for 12 weeks
500 iu hcg
Pct nolvadex 40\20\20\20 and clomid 75\50\50\50

[InternalFire]

did you run any AI during your cycle?

Besides 2700kcal if they were well sorted meaning adequate amount of proteins and then the rest, are well beyond your maintenance kcal intake.
It may have been your diet that did you wrong, overload in carbs and you get that, or lack of AI

[Mr. Small]

I ran arimidex @ .25mg every other day

I reckon my maintaince calories are around 2300-400. I took 2800 at least because some gym pal advised me to

[InternalFire]

how was your diet like? can you try break it down to macros?

[clarky.]

This is just a silly Q, what do think would happen ?. It does not matter how much of a compond you use or compounds. If you do not eat to a plus of your TDEE you will not grow.

Yes if you eat your maintainance and cycle it would be a waste, and you would have shut down your natural test for nothing.

Have a read in the nutrition section.

[Proximal]

Clarky (and all others) please forgive me, this is NOT meant to be argumentative in ANY way. Thank you Mr. Small, because I am just finishing up a cycle and am curious about this very thing. Already planning for #2.

As soon as I started TRT (150 mg./wk), I did not deliberately bump up my calories in any way. In 7 months I gained 12 pounds of muscle and lost 5 pounds of fat. I did not significantly change my training, nor did I add cardio. How does that fit in with your statement?

Let's say a person runs a 500 mg. of test only per week cycle. How much excess fat MUST be gained in order to gain muscle? I now am fully understanding of the water gain, but why fat?

Thank you, very sorry if this is too basic. Again, not trying to be antagonistic or deliberately sounding like a dumb-ass in any way.

[clarky.]

Clarky (and all others) please forgive me, this is NOT meant to be argumentative in ANY way. Thank you Mr. Small, because I am just finishing up a cycle and am curious about this very thing. Already planning for #2.

As soon as I started TRT (150 mg./wk), I did not deliberately bump up my calories in any way. In 7 months I gained 12 pounds of muscle and lost 5 pounds of fat. I did not significantly change my training, nor did I add cardio. How does that fit in with your statement?

Let's say a person runs a 500 mg. of test only per week cycle. How much excess fat MUST be gained in order to gain muscle? I now am fully understanding of the water gain, but why fat?

Thank you, very sorry if this is too basic. Again, not trying to be antagonistic or deliberately sounding like a dumb-ass in any way.

Great Q prox, well for starters you were and are on TRT so that does make a big difference.

Your test level will be stable throughout this whole time making this a lot easier well a say that, i mean a better aid for you. Remember we a all different prox what works for you will/could not work for me.

The op could have very low T and does not know it, and you compare yourself to it. You can not do this full stop. Evey single person has to work out there TDEE and either add to it for size, eat there TDEE to maintain, or less to cut, simple as that.
This goes for on cycle or not.

[Proximal]

Yeah, probably a waste, but my body fat went up on 2700 cals or so with 500mg of test for 12 weeks.

How far along are you post cycle? Have you made any adjustments to your diet yet to try to cut some of your fat?

You and I are in the exact same position, glad you asked this question.

[NACH3]

Yeah, probably a waste, but my body fat went up on 2700 cals or so with 500mg of test for 12 weeks.

I'd say look at your nutrition and training for that matter - at maintenence after cycle you may need to throw in some cardio if trying to stay leaner(your metabolism isn't working as fast or burning its fuel ad fast off cycle - hence the cardio(if your bulking than bulk if cutting cut... Or recomp but you have to be dialed in for that - my diets never changes - just the amount of food I will consume as I'm always bulking atm lol

[ghettoboyd]

I would say from personal experience that he would at least experience a sort of recomp so If that where the goal to begin with then it would not be a waste really imho...some muscle will be gained and some fat will be lost just not anything amazing...

[Mr. Small]

How far along are you post cycle? Have you made any adjustments to your diet yet to try to cut some of your fat?

You and I are in the exact same position, glad you asked this question.

Finished PCT and am dieting down to get my BF to at least 15% which is required for the next cycle. I am almost there atm.

I don't want to have to diet after a cycle to prepare for the next cycle. Obviously my cals were to high, so how does 300 cal above maintainance sound?

[Mr. Small]

how was your diet like? can you try break it down to macros?

200g protein, 70g fat and the rest in carbs

Meal 1: 4 eggs

Meal 2: 100g rice and chicken fillet

PWO: 40g protein whey

Meal 3: 75g oats, chicken and broccoli

Meal 4: 75g oats and 20g cashew nuts

Meal 5: 200g cottage cheese

Meal 6: 50g rice and 180g lean mince beef

[NACH3]

I'd say more Veggies ... And fruits?! Greens will help dry you out and cut some complex carbs and load up on fibrous greens(asparagus, broccoli, dense and green) fruits(plus the combo will help your HDL) in the am to break your fast in the am as it's the longest we go without foods and natural sugars are great for breaking a highly fast(mixed fruit melon cantaloupe watermelon etc)

You can add the veggies to any meals on top of carbs but try and cut back the complex carbs a little and use greens to fill up you'll lean out and try to get them in 2-3 x day imo

[Proximal]

Finished PCT and am dieting down to get my BF to at least 15% which is required for the next cycle. I am almost there atm.

I don't want to have to diet after a cycle to prepare for the next cycle. Obviously my cals were to high, so how does 300 cal above maintainance sound?

So how much actual weight did you lose during PCT? There is water involved, I thought that this was supposed to drop naturally. Then assumably the rest is muscle and fat. The mirror should then determine approximately how much of that is fat. Are we on the same page with our understanding of this?

[Proximal]

I'd say look at your nutrition and training for that matter - at maintenence after cycle you may need to throw in some cardio if trying to stay leaner(your metabolism isn't working as fast or burning its fuel ad fast off cycle - hence the cardio(if your bulking than bulk if cutting cut... Or recomp but you have to be dialed in for that - my diets never changes - just the amount of food I will consume as I'm always bulking atm lol

But Nach, I am trying to understand this and forgive me if I am suffering from being an idiot LOL. I thought the point is, is that you HAVE to put on fat in order to gain muscle. When you read Austenite's thread on the first cycle, the weight comes from fat, water & muscle and that is with I believe 400 - 600 calories over maintenance.

Here's my main question, how much fat do you have to put on? Is there a way of being more efficient? With the original cycle, can't fat gain be limited by diet to the point where muscle gain is not effected in any way?

[Proximal]

Great Q prox, well for starters you were and are on TRT so that does make a big difference.

Your test level will be stable throughout this whole time making this a lot easier well a say that, i mean a better aid for you. Remember we a all different prox what works for you will/could not work for me.

The op could have very low T and does not know it, and you compare yourself to it. You can not do this full stop. Evey single person has to work out there TDEE and either add to it for size, eat there TDEE to maintain, or less to cut, simple as that.
This goes for on cycle or not.

Thanks for responding Clarky.

1. How/why are cycle gains different for those already on TRT and those purely doing cycle & PCT?

2. I just thought as Austenite's first cycle seems to be the go-to/gold-standard beginner's cycle & there might be less guess work in results, but I fully appreciate/understand variation from person to person.

3. Understand the basics about eating under TDEE to cut & eat more to add size - really do. But, it's this "size" word that has me somewhat confused. I am not a "big" guy - I am tall and lanky. Guys like me, don't do well with any size except muscle. Even 1-2 pounds of fat, looks bad, where on "bigger" guys, it works just fine. I AM GOING TO REPEAT A QUESTION FROM MY LAST POST WITH NACH, SORRY, I UNDERSTAND IT IS A REPEAT. IT SEEMS INEFFICIENT TO PUT ON FAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO, BUT HOW MUCH FAT DO YOU HAVE TO PUT ON TO GAIN MUSCLE - IS THERE AN ANSWER FOR THIS?

TO EVERYONE OUT THERE, I APOLOGIZE FOR SUCH A BASIC AND PERHAPS STUPID QUESTION. I BUST MY ASS WITH MY DIET AND TRAINING AND EXPECT TO BE CYCLING TO PERHAPS MY DYING DAY. THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING. MR. SMALL, HOPEFULLY MY QUESTIONS PARALLEL YOURS SO I HAVE NOT HIJACKED YOUR THREAD.

[numbere]

IT SEEMS INEFFICIENT TO PUT ON FAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO, BUT HOW MUCH FAT DO YOU HAVE TO PUT ON TO GAIN MUSCLE - IS THERE AN ANSWER FOR This?

Barring genetics, after the initial muscle saturation with water (glycogen and nitrogen), you can expect for every pound you gain that one third will be water one third will be fat and one third will me muscle tissue.

[Proximal]

Barring genetics, after the initial muscle saturation with water (glycogen and nitrogen), you can expect for every pound you gain that one third will be water one third will be fat and one third will me muscle tissue.

Numbere, thank you again - I know this is what you replied to me before. Perhaps there's a disconnect in my mind somewhere and I am interpreting this incorrectly, or I am asking incorrectly, which ever.

So just by the nature of increased dosages of test, you MUST put fat on? This question is in a different context to what I was asking on another thread. Let me try this a different way and yes barring genetics.

500 mg. of test - "bulk" cycle

Goal: 5 pounds of muscle. Therefore must end cycle with approximately 15 pounds of extra weight, expect to lose 5 pounds of water, must then cut 5 pounds of fat by diet & training.

Goal: 10 pounds of muscle. Therefore must end cycle with approximately 30 pounds of extra weight, expect to lose 10 pounds of water, must then cut 10 pounds of fat by diet & training.

*Understand that there is a limit to muscle gain based upon the amount of AAS taken.

Essentially, one MUST gain fat to gain any muscle due to the nature of the higher levels of testosterone . However, with TRT, no fat gained, in fact fat is lost, with lower levels of testosterone .

[Mr. Small]

How do we lean bulk?