Strange cycle for strange circumstances

[DocToxin8]

This is pretty much how I look now:


GOAL;
To gain strength and mass and keep body fat at current level,
AND not have ANY suppressive AAS in my system at the end of week 8;
When I draw blood in week 9 my pituitary must at least release some LH&FSH, and total T must be low.
Also need to have SHBG level within normal range, last bloodwork it was way too low.

Comment:
I'm totally brainfreezed right now and also limited by fear of accumulation of AAS in fatty tissue,
so this cycle setup is far from ideal, but I have to start it soon/now.
NOTE/DISCLAIMER: ANYONE THINKING OF GOING AHEAD WITH A CYCLE WITH SO POOR PLANNING,
AND EVEN LACK OF ALL COMPOUNDS,
SHOULD KNOW THAT THE ONLY REASON I CAN DO THIS IS BECAUSE I'M A GEAR ADDICT WHO'VE ALLREADY FUCKED UP MY HPTA PERMANENTLY!
TO BE CLEAR: THIS IS STUPID!

This cycle sucks IMO, but i can't think,
so i'll post it to help the thought process.


Testosterone:
Week 1-5: test prop 100mg EOD=350mg pr week
Week 6: 50mg test prop monday & wednesday.
Week 7: Testogel 50mg x2/ED
Week 8: Testogel 50mg x2/ED
Week 9: blood drawn wednesday

HCG: 500u/x3/week 1-9

AI: since i need higher SHBG im not going to use an AI,
or perhaps a little for the first 3 weeks.

AAS:
Stanozolol oral: 30mg/ED week 1-4
Drostanolone prop. : 100mg/E3D week 5-7
Anadrol: 50mg on workout days, week 1-3
Trenbolone enanthate: 400mg week 1

Insulin:
Long acting insulin: start@12u and increase up to max 20u by feel
Dosed 4x/week in the morning, Week 1-3

Short acting insulin: After workouts,
Week 1-4 (if on same day as long acting then start@5u, otherwise 10u)


Support meds/supps:

Arginine 5-7g morning and before bed to reduce BP through upping substrate for NOS.

carnitine 500mg x 2

Ramipril 10mg/ED: To reduce angiotensin 2, (which is upregulated by AAS) and lower BP,
as well as hinder pathologic changes to the heart.
Acetylsalicylic acid: 75-100mg ED
Methylphenidate: on hand, perhaps for use during insulin dosing.
other supps include glutamine, BCAA, taurine, etc.



I've never done a proper insulin cycle,
but experimented with it enough to know well how my body reacts to short acting insulin.
I've tried long acting for a week, without any consideration of fat in the diet, and there was some fat gain.

I'm not a big guy IMO and the reason why I want to add insulin,
is that I don't think I'm able to grow much more on AAS alone,
(or I would if upping to gram dosages, but that's not an option now)
so insulin seems like the logical choice.

If I find a good source I'll add hGH/somatropin,
using it along with the insulin, or perhaps the entire cycle.

I still find this cycle lacking.
And I will drop the long acting insulin if I gain more fat than I have now.

I'll look for short acting trenbolone (acetate) for use up to week 5.



PROBLEMS:
I don't have all the compounds yet, needing more test prop, more masteron if I wanna increase the dose to 3-400mg weekly.
READ DISCLAIMER!
And trenbolone acetate if I wanna include that.

It's a problem cause I need to start this cycle soon, this week preferably.
(However, I don't think it will be that hard to find it)

I'm almost crying when I look at my trenbolone enanthate vials that I can't use due to the long ester,
as well as other enanthate esterified roids.

Please come with suggestions and slaughter this cycle,
if i have to defend it, it will make me think and perfect it.

[Obs]

Good job doc. I know nothing of slin. You look like a machine though. Give it hell.

[ScotchGuard02]

Some gear sorta shuts you down and others shuts you down cold. Tren/Test will shut you down hard. I don't see any PCT and without a strong PCT, I don't think "When I draw blood in week 9 my pituitary must at least release some LH&FSH, and total T must be low." is going to happen. You're going to get gains but I don't think you're going to recover in time. My .02

[DocToxin8]

Some gear sorta shuts you down and others shuts you down cold. Tren/Test will shut you down hard. I don't see any PCT and without a strong PCT, I don't think "When I draw blood in week 9 my pituitary must at least release some LH&FSH, and total T must be low." is going to happen. You're going to get gains but I don't think you're going to recover in time. My .02

Yeah, that's why I'm doubting to include Tren at all, and that running Tren ace as I want for week 1-5 (or 4) might not be such a good idea.

I have clomid and nolva, but I'm afraid of using it before the bloodwork,
as I need low LH&FSH values, but higher than nothing.
With SERMs I'm afraid of getting "normal" LH & FSH values,
or even high (though I doubt my pituitary is able to release high amounts even then), I want the LH&FSH values that my pituitary secretes when there's low levels of sex hormones in my system, not artificially raised by a SERM.

I said there were strange circumstances.

[RamboQuarterSegment]

I want the LH&FSH values that my pituitary secretes when there's low levels of sex hormones in my system

Which sex hormones?

[DocToxin8]

Which sex hormones?

Low androgens, normal or high E2, but not supraphysiologically high,
normal progesterone.

[RamboQuarterSegment]

Low androgens, normal or high E2, but not supraphysiologically high,
normal progesterone.

It's arguable that the only sex hormone in males is testosterone, as it could be argued that the estrogens and progesterone serve no reproductive purpose.

[RamboQuarterSegment]

Overall I like your cycle, but if I were going for an extreme cycle to beef up as much as possible as quickly as possible, then I'd keep it simple. Best gains I ever got were from:

Testosterone(combined esters) 1.5g / wk, Trenbolone Enanthate 1.2g / wk, Metandienone 100mg ED

Looking back on it, I should have used milk thistle.... maybe I would have kept my gains.

[Lunk1]

What was the point of including tren E for 1 week?

[DocToxin8]

What was the point of including tren E for 1 week?

Simply to have some Tren in my system for that has at least some activity for the first 2 weeks, when running long acting insulin.
Need a powerful androgen to prevent fat gain.
But I'm somewhat afraid it will linger in my system for too long,
but 400mg should clear the system totally in 8 weeks.
(My experience with enanthate esters is that it accumulates to such a degree it can take 2months before its cleared the system.
That is with very long use though. But I'm trying to stay on the safe side here)

[RamboQuarterSegment]

(My experience with enanthate esters is that it accumulates to such a degree it can take 2months before its cleared the system.
That is with very long use though. But I'm trying to stay on the safe side here)

Do you mean the anabolic molecule, or do you mean the ester that's cleaved from the original combined molecule?

[DocToxin8]

Do you mean the anabolic molecule, or do you mean the ester that's cleaved from the original combined molecule?

I mean accumulation of the steroid with the ester still on it in fatty tissues.
(I think so, or just the steroid, the ester in itself is most welcome to stay,
however I don't think it can, esterases being quite abundant in human tissue)

[RamboQuarterSegment]

I mean accumulation of the steroid with the ester still on it in fatty tissues.
(I think so, or just the steroid, the ester in itself is most welcome to stay,
however I don't think it can, esterases being quite abundant in human tissue)

While the de-cleaving of esterified molecules takes place at a higher rate in blood than in fatty tissues, the rate of transfer of the esterified molecule to a fat desposit, then back to blood, then back to fat deposit, then back to blood, is quite regular.

[DocToxin8]

To break things down a little;
This is really a 4-5 week cycle,
with the last 3 weeks just trying to maintain an anabolic state.
That's why I was thinking masteron in such a low dose at the end,
(Since it's not very supressive, and have a short duration of action)
and I am contemplating the use of masteron along with the long acting insulin as well, as I want really heavy hitting androgens to prevent fat gain.

However, the winstrol and anadrol should help as well,
but I really would like a heavy hitting androgen like Tren.
Mast is also very androgenic, but nowhere near the anabolic potential of Tren.

[RamboQuarterSegment]

as I want really heavy hitting androgens to prevent fat gain.

I've heard that school of thought but I'm not with it. One of my favourite compounds to run when I'm afraid of PCT is Oxandrolone because of it's low androgenicity. There's a lot to be said for high androgenicity (e.g. running Tren at 1.2g / wk), but there's a lot to be said for low androgenicity too (e.g. Test 150mg / wk with Oxandrolone 70mg ED).

[Mr.BB]

The cycle is incomplete, you forgot dbol and nandrolone.

[hammerheart]

Methylphenidate? With tren your going to need a DA and I won't mix the two.

Have you ever tried it before?

[numbere]

My honest opinion is that it seems like a forced/rushed cycle.

If you want normal bw at week 9 then why not just use slin.

You can substitute t3 for tren and not run a any other anabolics.

[Vash the Stampede]

Convoluted, confusing, illogical, over complicated...

Just some of the words that come to mind when reading over your proposed cycle. Head back to the drawing board, and keep it simple.

[kelkel]

Convoluted, confusing, illogical, over complicated...

Seriously, why bother running anything. Just wait until after your BW is done.

[DocToxin8]

Seriously, why bother running anything. Just wait until after your BW is done.

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind.

I could just use test.prop@100mg/week til week 5, then do testogel til week 8.

Oh, and if that wasn't clear, going without any AAS for 8 weeks is my idea of hell on earth. I could do 4weeks without max, (4 weeks from last dose of prop, having no long esters in my system), at least with some testogel along the hCG.

It's not that I think it's impossible for me to go 8 weeks clean,
it's just that it's something I need to be really really prepared and willing to do.

[kelkel]

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind.

I could just use test.prop@100mg/week til week 5, then do testogel til week 8.

Oh, and if that wasn't clear, going without any AAS for 8 weeks is my idea of hell on earth. I could do 4weeks without max, (4 weeks from last dose of prop, having no long esters in my system), at least with some testogel along the hCG.

It's not that I think it's impossible for me to go 8 weeks clean,
it's just that it's something I need to be really really prepared and willing to do.

So why not skip the cycle, run a normal pct and see where you land?

[DocToxin8]

So why not skip the cycle, run a normal pct and see where you land?

Im not mentally prepared for a proper PCT.
and I'm afraid that if I do only TRT dosages the next couple of weeks,
I won't be prepared for what can be as long as 6-8 weeks on only hCG and a tiny amount test gel, depending on the results of the blood work.

But if I did 4 weeks on enough to really gain, then I'd survive losing some mass afterwards, as I'd also lose body fat and water, (and look much prettier by normal standards), so that ill concentrate on (new) pussy instead.
(Not necessarily pounding that pussy though, but have it lined up for later... ehhh, maybe just a one nighter, but it's fun to keep 'em waiting also)
Haha, I'm just showing of!
I'm still a virgin and would never have sex before I've been married for 5 years.

[RamboQuarterSegment]

It's not that I think it's impossible for me to go 8 weeks clean,
it's just that it's something I need to be really really prepared and willing to do.

At least you're realisitic.

[DocToxin8]

Nandrolone is supressive and not easily available as prop.
NPP is a possibility, and it would definitely help,
I'll look into it.
DBOL, I could have used it instead of anadrol,
or combined it with drol, but it aromatize to methyl estradiol where anadrol doesn't aromatize.

Running insulin alone? Why would I want to do that?
(Yes it's not an AAS, and tuning it with a TRT dose of test would be safer as to not fuck up the blood test. But it's not something I would do unless I had to pass doping tests that could come with short warning)

As to methylphenidate I do know the compound, and t3 is unnecessary.
I have (very) high levels of thyroid hormones naturally,
(By naturally I mean on AAS)
if I were to use t3 or t4 it would be part of a cut.

Confused, oh yes it is.

The "simple" core here would be:
Test prop EOD to week 5.
Test prop low dose week 6
Testogel til week 8

Winny: 30mg/ED til week 4

Insulin protocol


With this setup it's open for debate what other orals (if any) to use,
and to include masteron, trenbolone and nandrolone.

[Mr.BB]

Nandrolone is supressive and not easily available as prop.
NPP is a possibility, and it would definitely help,
I'll look into it.
DBOL, I could have used it instead of anadrol,
or combined it with drol, but it aromatize to methyl estradiol where anadrol doesn't aromatize.

Sowwy, I was kinda being sarcastic as those are almost the only compounds left.

Well, if this kind of cycle works for you great. Personally, dont see any logic to it.

You probably need TRT although you are still a bit on the young side for it, most of the ppl who start doing tren and/or nandrolone end up in TRT.

About the cycle I would keep it a lot simpler and longer, although some here favour short cycles, personally don't see how lean muscle and be built in 2-3 weeks and be consolidated. If at least it was 4-5 weeks on, 4 weeks off and repeat, I can see some logic to it, but 1 week of tren?? whats that for??

Furthermore its your first time with insulin, so with a new compound you want something stable that you know how you react too, not the rollercoaster you presented.

Just do 8 weeks of tren ace, if you handle tren well.

One thing I think is really wrong its to do 2 orals at same time, your liver transaminases will be elevated after 1 week.

[DocToxin8]

Sowwy, I was kinda being sarcastic as those are almost the only compounds left.

Well, if this kind of cycle works for you great. Personally, dont see any logic to it.

You probably need TRT although you are still a bit on the young side for it, most of the ppl who start doing tren and/or nandrolone end up in TRT.

About the cycle I would keep it a lot simpler and longer, although some here favour short cycles, personally don't see how lean muscle and be built in 2-3 weeks and be consolidated. If at least it was 4-5 weeks on, 4 weeks off and repeat, I can see some logic to it, but 1 week of tren?? whats that for??

Furthermore its your first time with insulin, so with a new compound you want something stable that you know how you react too, not the rollercoaster you presented.

Just do 8 weeks of tren ace, if you handle tren well.

One thing I think is really wrong its to do 2 orals at same time, your liver transaminases will be elevated after 1 week.

Hehe, I kinda guessed it, but hey, why not?

2 orals at the same time works well for me,
actually there's some logic to it as well.
Say you run 100mg anadrol/ED, you'll (I) feel better when doing 50mg DBOL and 50mg Drol.

TRT? im well past that point!

[RamboQuarterSegment]

Say you run 100mg anadrol/ED, you'll (I) feel better when doing 50mg DBOL and 50mg Drol.

Here's a thought experiment...

Let's say your liver can take 100mg of COMPOUND A per week.

Let's say your liver can take 100mg of COMPOUND B per week.

Does that mean that your liver can take 50mg of COMPOUND A concurrently with 50mg of COMPOUND B per week?

[DocToxin8]

Here's a thought experiment...

Let's say your liver can take 100mg of COMPOUND A per week.

Let's say your liver can take 100mg of COMPOUND B per week.

Does that mean that your liver can take 50mg of COMPOUND A concurrently with 50mg of COMPOUND B per week?

Hehe, that's impossible to predict.
But would it take 50mg dbol and 50mg drol as well as 100mg drol?
Well drol could be less liver toxic than dbol with its very low AR affinity.
DBOL might be less liver toxic due to being able to aromatize. (At a low degree though)

Aromatization and AR affinity affects liver toxicity in C17 methylated compounds I believe.

[RamboQuarterSegment]

Nandrolone is supressive and not easily available as prop.
NPP is a possibility, and it would definitely help

Shouldn't be an issue if you've already blasted your HPTA.

DBOL, I could have used it instead of anadrol,
or combined it with drol, but it aromatize to methyl estradiol where anadrol doesn't aromatize.

Dianabol is on my ban list... you may aswell just inject your muscles with bacteriostatic water. Anadrol though is good if you're going for a high-androgenicity cycle. I'm going for low androgenicity nowadays though.

[DocToxin8]

Shouldn't be an issue if you've already blasted your HPTA.

Dianabol is on my ban list... you may aswell just inject your muscles with bacteriostatic water. Anadrol though is good if you're going for a high-androgenicity cycle. I'm going for low androgenicity nowadays though.

As long as LH&FSH isn't reduced to zero at the end I agree about NPP.

I find DBOL to work very well, and make me feel very well.
Drol however, I used to not be able to tolerate more than 25mg/day with it, and even then feel like shit, but now my body reacts differently to it,
fills me out, doesn't feel like shit (unless used for months),
gives strength and mass and little water. (Water depends greatly on diet and amount of test/E2 along with the drol though)

[Cuz]

Why do you want insulin man?

[DocToxin8]

Why do you want insulin man?

For its anabolic potential obviously.
And my hope was that I could do a 5 week cycle (or blast),
or 4 week really with insulin, with enough gear on the side for it to be "effective".

I have had some months now with low doses, injuries, and lack of motivation, and feel almost ashamed when looking into the mirror.
I had hoped to gain some mass now, try to keep it during the "clean" time,
and come back and do a proper blast when I don't have to mind esters and use enanthate, which is my favorite.

[DocToxin8]

Also, I'm not new to insulin, I've used it to recover faster before, but I've not run it for any length of time.

1 week of Tren enanthate is for keeping some Tren in my system the first 2 weeks, to help stay anabolic and high androgen activation for at least some of the time with the insulin.
(The orals or some added mast will also help with this)

I agree that 4 weeks I short, I'll gain, but it will be difficult to keep it (solidifying it), but I will at least have normal test levels with the testogel and hCG the last 4 weeks. So hopefully I'll keep most of it.
But it's not optimal, got damn no, no it's not.

[RamboQuarterSegment]

1 week of Tren enanthate is for keeping some Tren in my system the first 2 weeks, to help stay anabolic and high androgen activation for at least some of the time with the insulin.

I used testosterone suspension for this purpose. Or the next best thing testosterone propionate. Trenbolone enanthate is an awful choice for this.

[Mr.BB]

Tren E will not kick until 4-5 weeks.

[DocToxin8]

Tren E will not kick until 4-5 weeks.

Really? Hmmm, not even if you've used some Tren e the weeks before?

And what do you mean by kick in?
(I probably know what you mean, but just to be a dick about it)
Are you saying that if I inject 400mg on day 1, I won't have any Tren e in my system (active Tren in my blood) by day 3?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...531493/related

"....the TE injection caused highly supra physiologic levels from day 1 to day 5..."

[Mr.BB]

Really? Hmmm, not even if you've used some Tren e the weeks before?

And what do you mean by kick in?
(I probably know what you mean, but just to be a dick about it)
Are you saying that if I inject 400mg on day 1, I won't have any Tren e in my system (active Tren in my blood) by day 3?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...531493/related

"....the TE injection caused highly supra physiologic levels from day 1 to day 5..."

No, of course you will have the injected compound from the 1st minute, it will start releasing slowly from the ester. Im on TRT, but back when I was cycling and PCTing I would feel the presence of test E from the 1st day. But kick in is different from felling the presence.

Although there's no scientific explanation (that I know of) for the kick in expression it is pretty clear the strength increase and overall lean mass gains that arrive at "kick in" time.

[DocToxin8]

No, of course you will have the injected compound from the 1st minute, it will start releasing slowly from the ester. Im on TRT, but back when I was cycling and PCTing I would feel the presence of test E from the 1st day. But kick in is different from felling the presence.

Although there's no scientific explanation (that I know of) for the kick in expression it is pretty clear the strength increase and overall lean mass gains that arrive at "kick in" time.

Yes ofcourse BB, but let me ask you this;
Have your experience of when a compound "kicks in" changed after you started TRT? (Especially if you're on a high TRT dose)

For a normal "cycler" who's actually clean/natural when he injects f.ex test e on day 1, to the time he feels the pump, is usually around 2 weeks in my experience. (One could speculate a lot of reasons why; the EPO effect, changes in nitrogen balance, etc..)
But for a cruiser, who's already got quite a high test level, the increase in serum T when blasting feels pumped up in a much shorter time.
Strength is usually up within days, not because of any gain in muscle but the neurological effect of androgens.
How long does it take for actual muscle growth to occur?
Harder to say.

When a muscle is trained (and this effect is amplified by AAS)
it responds by recruiting satellite cells to fuse with the muscle fiber, and donate it's cell nucleus. The muscle fiber will first increase its number of nuclei.
Then, with the addition of more nuclei the muscle fiber is able to produce protein at a faster rate, since it's the nucleus that's sends messenger RNA/mRNA to the ribosomes, and the muscle fiber increase in size.
Interestingly, when one stops training and the muscle mass is lost, the nuclei in the fibers still seem to be there, at least for a long time. And when one starts to train again, the muscle grows back to its previous size much faster.
(Muscle memory)

Can you recruit more satellite cells in 4 weeks, does it depend on how big you are, will the fiber grow in size as well?
Yes, probably, maybe.

But we're not only looking at the kick in time for Tren e, since I wanted it as a heavy androgen along with the insulin.
Will it be there, in circulation, along with the insulin for 2 weeks, providing anabolic synergy and hindering fat gain?

[RamboQuarterSegment]

Strength is usually up within days, not because of any gain in muscle but the neurological effect of androgens.

There's a far more effective way of achieving this psychosomatic effect than relying on the psychotropic effect of a drug. A far more effective way.