Strange cycle for strange circumstances

[DocToxin8]

This is pretty much how I look now:


GOAL;
To gain strength and mass and keep body fat at current level,
AND not have ANY suppressive AAS in my system at the end of week 8;
When I draw blood in week 9 my pituitary must at least release some LH&FSH, and total T must be low.
Also need to have SHBG level within normal range, last bloodwork it was way too low.

Comment:
I'm totally brainfreezed right now and also limited by fear of accumulation of AAS in fatty tissue,
so this cycle setup is far from ideal, but I have to start it soon/now.
NOTE/DISCLAIMER: ANYONE THINKING OF GOING AHEAD WITH A CYCLE WITH SO POOR PLANNING,
AND EVEN LACK OF ALL COMPOUNDS,
SHOULD KNOW THAT THE ONLY REASON I CAN DO THIS IS BECAUSE I'M A GEAR ADDICT WHO'VE ALLREADY FUCKED UP MY HPTA PERMANENTLY!
TO BE CLEAR: THIS IS STUPID!

This cycle sucks IMO, but i can't think,
so i'll post it to help the thought process.


Testosterone :
Week 1-5: test prop 100mg EOD=350mg pr week
Week 6: 50mg test prop monday & wednesday.
Week 7: Testogel 50mg x2/ED
Week 8: Testogel 50mg x2/ED
Week 9: blood drawn wednesday

HCG : 500u/x3/week 1-9

AI: since i need higher SHBG im not going to use an AI,
or perhaps a little for the first 3 weeks.

AAS:
Stanozolol oral: 30mg/ED week 1-4
Drostanolone prop. : 100mg/E3D week 5-7
Anadrol : 50mg on workout days, week 1-3
Trenbolone enanthate : 400mg week 1

Insulin :
Long acting insulin: start@12u and increase up to max 20u by feel
Dosed 4x/week in the morning, Week 1-3

Short acting insulin: After workouts,
Week 1-4 (if on same day as long acting then start@5u, otherwise 10u)


Support meds/supps:

Arginine 5-7g morning and before bed to reduce BP through upping substrate for NOS.

carnitine 500mg x 2

Ramipril 10mg/ED: To reduce angiotensin 2, (which is upregulated by AAS) and lower BP,
as well as hinder pathologic changes to the heart.
Acetylsalicylic acid: 75-100mg ED
Methylphenidate: on hand, perhaps for use during insulin dosing.
other supps include glutamine, BCAA, taurine, etc.



I've never done a proper insulin cycle,
but experimented with it enough to know well how my body reacts to short acting insulin.
I've tried long acting for a week, without any consideration of fat in the diet, and there was some fat gain.

I'm not a big guy IMO and the reason why I want to add insulin,
is that I don't think I'm able to grow much more on AAS alone,
(or I would if upping to gram dosages, but that's not an option now)
so insulin seems like the logical choice.

If I find a good source I'll add hGH/somatropin,
using it along with the insulin, or perhaps the entire cycle.

I still find this cycle lacking.
And I will drop the long acting insulin if I gain more fat than I have now.

I'll look for short acting trenbolone (acetate) for use up to week 5.



PROBLEMS:
I don't have all the compounds yet, needing more test prop, more masteron if I wanna increase the dose to 3-400mg weekly.
READ DISCLAIMER!
And trenbolone acetate if I wanna include that.

It's a problem cause I need to start this cycle soon, this week preferably.
(However, I don't think it will be that hard to find it)

I'm almost crying when I look at my trenbolone enanthate vials that I can't use due to the long ester,
as well as other enanthate esterified roids.

Please come with suggestions and slaughter this cycle,
if i have to defend it, it will make me think and perfect it.

[Obs]

Good job doc. I know nothing of slin. You look like a machine though. Give it hell.

[ScotchGuard02]

Some gear sorta shuts you down and others shuts you down cold. Tren /Test will shut you down hard. I don't see any PCT and without a strong PCT, I don't think "When I draw blood in week 9 my pituitary must at least release some LH&FSH, and total T must be low." is going to happen. You're going to get gains but I don't think you're going to recover in time. My .02

[Lunk1]

What was the point of including tren E for 1 week?

[DocToxin8]

What was the point of including tren E for 1 week?

Simply to have some Tren in my system for that has at least some activity for the first 2 weeks, when running long acting insulin .
Need a powerful androgen to prevent fat gain.
But I'm somewhat afraid it will linger in my system for too long,
but 400mg should clear the system totally in 8 weeks.
(My experience with enanthate esters is that it accumulates to such a degree it can take 2months before its cleared the system.
That is with very long use though. But I'm trying to stay on the safe side here)

[DocToxin8]

Some gear sorta shuts you down and others shuts you down cold. Tren /Test will shut you down hard. I don't see any PCT and without a strong PCT, I don't think "When I draw blood in week 9 my pituitary must at least release some LH&FSH, and total T must be low." is going to happen. You're going to get gains but I don't think you're going to recover in time. My .02

Yeah, that's why I'm doubting to include Tren at all, and that running Tren ace as I want for week 1-5 (or 4) might not be such a good idea.

I have clomid and nolva, but I'm afraid of using it before the bloodwork,
as I need low LH&FSH values, but higher than nothing.
With SERMs I'm afraid of getting "normal" LH & FSH values,
or even high (though I doubt my pituitary is able to release high amounts even then), I want the LH&FSH values that my pituitary secretes when there's low levels of sex hormones in my system, not artificially raised by a SERM.

I said there were strange circumstances.

[DocToxin8]

To break things down a little;
This is really a 4-5 week cycle,
with the last 3 weeks just trying to maintain an anabolic state.
That's why I was thinking masteron in such a low dose at the end,
(Since it's not very supressive, and have a short duration of action)
and I am contemplating the use of masteron along with the long acting insulin as well, as I want really heavy hitting androgens to prevent fat gain.

However, the winstrol and anadrol should help as well,
but I really would like a heavy hitting androgen like Tren .
Mast is also very androgenic , but nowhere near the anabolic potential of Tren.

[Mr.BB]

The cycle is incomplete, you forgot dbol and nandrolone .

[hammerheart]

Methylphenidate? With tren your going to need a DA and I won't mix the two.

Have you ever tried it before?

[numbere]

My honest opinion is that it seems like a forced/rushed cycle.

If you want normal bw at week 9 then why not just use slin.

You can substitute t3 for tren and not run a any other anabolics.

[Vash the Stampede]

Convoluted, confusing, illogical, over complicated...

Just some of the words that come to mind when reading over your proposed cycle. Head back to the drawing board, and keep it simple.

[DocToxin8]

Nandrolone is supressive and not easily available as prop.
NPP is a possibility, and it would definitely help,
I'll look into it.
DBOL , I could have used it instead of anadrol ,
or combined it with drol, but it aromatize to methyl estradiol where anadrol doesn't aromatize.

Running insulin alone? Why would I want to do that?
(Yes it's not an AAS, and tuning it with a TRT dose of test would be safer as to not fuck up the blood test. But it's not something I would do unless I had to pass doping tests that could come with short warning)

As to methylphenidate I do know the compound, and t3 is unnecessary.
I have (very) high levels of thyroid hormones naturally,
(By naturally I mean on AAS)
if I were to use t3 or t4 it would be part of a cut.

Confused, oh yes it is.

The "simple" core here would be:
Test prop EOD to week 5.
Test prop low dose week 6
Testogel til week 8

Winny: 30mg/ED til week 4

Insulin protocol


With this setup it's open for debate what other orals (if any) to use,
and to include masteron , trenbolone and nandrolone.

[Cuz]

Why do you want insulin man?

[kelkel]

Convoluted, confusing, illogical, over complicated...

Seriously, why bother running anything. Just wait until after your BW is done.

[DocToxin8]

Seriously, why bother running anything. Just wait until after your BW is done.

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind.

I could just use test.prop@100mg/week til week 5, then do testogel til week 8.

Oh, and if that wasn't clear, going without any AAS for 8 weeks is my idea of hell on earth. I could do 4weeks without max, (4 weeks from last dose of prop, having no long esters in my system), at least with some testogel along the hCG .

It's not that I think it's impossible for me to go 8 weeks clean,
it's just that it's something I need to be really really prepared and willing to do.

[DocToxin8]

Why do you want insulin man?

For its anabolic potential obviously.
And my hope was that I could do a 5 week cycle (or blast),
or 4 week really with insulin , with enough gear on the side for it to be "effective".

I have had some months now with low doses, injuries, and lack of motivation, and feel almost ashamed when looking into the mirror.
I had hoped to gain some mass now, try to keep it during the "clean" time,
and come back and do a proper blast when I don't have to mind esters and use enanthate , which is my favorite.

[kelkel]

Yeah, that thought has crossed my mind.

I could just use test.prop@100mg/week til week 5, then do testogel til week 8.

Oh, and if that wasn't clear, going without any AAS for 8 weeks is my idea of hell on earth. I could do 4weeks without max, (4 weeks from last dose of prop, having no long esters in my system), at least with some testogel along the hCG .

It's not that I think it's impossible for me to go 8 weeks clean,
it's just that it's something I need to be really really prepared and willing to do.

So why not skip the cycle, run a normal pct and see where you land?

[Mr.BB]

Nandrolone is supressive and not easily available as prop.
NPP is a possibility, and it would definitely help,
I'll look into it.
DBOL , I could have used it instead of anadrol ,
or combined it with drol, but it aromatize to methyl estradiol where anadrol doesn't aromatize.

Sowwy, I was kinda being sarcastic as those are almost the only compounds left.

Well, if this kind of cycle works for you great. Personally, dont see any logic to it.

You probably need TRT although you are still a bit on the young side for it, most of the ppl who start doing tren and/or nandrolone end up in TRT.

About the cycle I would keep it a lot simpler and longer, although some here favour short cycles, personally don't see how lean muscle and be built in 2-3 weeks and be consolidated. If at least it was 4-5 weeks on, 4 weeks off and repeat, I can see some logic to it, but 1 week of tren?? whats that for??

Furthermore its your first time with insulin , so with a new compound you want something stable that you know how you react too, not the rollercoaster you presented.

Just do 8 weeks of tren ace, if you handle tren well.

One thing I think is really wrong its to do 2 orals at same time, your liver transaminases will be elevated after 1 week.

[DocToxin8]

So why not skip the cycle, run a normal pct and see where you land?

Im not mentally prepared for a proper PCT.
and I'm afraid that if I do only TRT dosages the next couple of weeks,
I won't be prepared for what can be as long as 6-8 weeks on only hCG and a tiny amount test gel, depending on the results of the blood work.

But if I did 4 weeks on enough to really gain, then I'd survive losing some mass afterwards, as I'd also lose body fat and water, (and look much prettier by normal standards), so that ill concentrate on (new) pussy instead.
(Not necessarily pounding that pussy though, but have it lined up for later... ehhh, maybe just a one nighter, but it's fun to keep 'em waiting also)
Haha, I'm just showing of!
I'm still a virgin and would never have sex before I've been married for 5 years.

[DocToxin8]

Sowwy, I was kinda being sarcastic as those are almost the only compounds left.

Well, if this kind of cycle works for you great. Personally, dont see any logic to it.

You probably need TRT although you are still a bit on the young side for it, most of the ppl who start doing tren and/or nandrolone end up in TRT.

About the cycle I would keep it a lot simpler and longer, although some here favour short cycles, personally don't see how lean muscle and be built in 2-3 weeks and be consolidated. If at least it was 4-5 weeks on, 4 weeks off and repeat, I can see some logic to it, but 1 week of tren?? whats that for??

Furthermore its your first time with insulin , so with a new compound you want something stable that you know how you react too, not the rollercoaster you presented.

Just do 8 weeks of tren ace, if you handle tren well.

One thing I think is really wrong its to do 2 orals at same time, your liver transaminases will be elevated after 1 week.

Hehe, I kinda guessed it, but hey, why not?

2 orals at the same time works well for me,
actually there's some logic to it as well.
Say you run 100mg anadrol /ED, you'll (I) feel better when doing 50mg DBOL and 50mg Drol.

TRT? im well past that point!

[DocToxin8]

Also, I'm not new to insulin , I've used it to recover faster before, but I've not run it for any length of time.

1 week of Tren enanthate is for keeping some Tren in my system the first 2 weeks, to help stay anabolic and high androgen activation for at least some of the time with the insulin.
(The orals or some added mast will also help with this)

I agree that 4 weeks I short, I'll gain, but it will be difficult to keep it (solidifying it), but I will at least have normal test levels with the testogel and hCG the last 4 weeks. So hopefully I'll keep most of it.
But it's not optimal, got damn no, no it's not.

[Mr.BB]

Tren E will not kick until 4-5 weeks.

[DocToxin8]

Tren E will not kick until 4-5 weeks.

Really? Hmmm, not even if you've used some Tren e the weeks before?

And what do you mean by kick in?
(I probably know what you mean, but just to be a dick about it)
Are you saying that if I inject 400mg on day 1, I won't have any Tren e in my system (active Tren in my blood) by day 3?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...531493/related

"....the TE injection caused highly supra physiologic levels from day 1 to day 5..."

[Mr.BB]

Really? Hmmm, not even if you've used some Tren e the weeks before?

And what do you mean by kick in?
(I probably know what you mean, but just to be a dick about it)
Are you saying that if I inject 400mg on day 1, I won't have any Tren e in my system (active Tren in my blood) by day 3?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubme...531493/related

"....the TE injection caused highly supra physiologic levels from day 1 to day 5..."

No, of course you will have the injected compound from the 1st minute, it will start releasing slowly from the ester. Im on TRT, but back when I was cycling and PCTing I would feel the presence of test E from the 1st day. But kick in is different from felling the presence.

Although there's no scientific explanation (that I know of) for the kick in expression it is pretty clear the strength increase and overall lean mass gains that arrive at "kick in" time.

[kelkel]

I won't be prepared for what can be as long as 6-8 weeks on only hCG and a tiny amount test gel, depending on the results of the blood work.

So what exactly is the point of the BW in this circumstance?

[DocToxin8]

No, of course you will have the injected compound from the 1st minute, it will start releasing slowly from the ester. Im on TRT, but back when I was cycling and PCTing I would feel the presence of test E from the 1st day. But kick in is different from felling the presence.

Although there's no scientific explanation (that I know of) for the kick in expression it is pretty clear the strength increase and overall lean mass gains that arrive at "kick in" time.

Yes ofcourse BB, but let me ask you this;
Have your experience of when a compound "kicks in" changed after you started TRT? (Especially if you're on a high TRT dose)

For a normal "cycler" who's actually clean/natural when he injects f.ex test e on day 1, to the time he feels the pump, is usually around 2 weeks in my experience. (One could speculate a lot of reasons why; the EPO effect, changes in nitrogen balance, etc..)
But for a cruiser, who's already got quite a high test level, the increase in serum T when blasting feels pumped up in a much shorter time.
Strength is usually up within days, not because of any gain in muscle but the neurological effect of androgens.
How long does it take for actual muscle growth to occur?
Harder to say.

When a muscle is trained (and this effect is amplified by AAS)
it responds by recruiting satellite cells to fuse with the muscle fiber, and donate it's cell nucleus. The muscle fiber will first increase its number of nuclei.
Then, with the addition of more nuclei the muscle fiber is able to produce protein at a faster rate, since it's the nucleus that's sends messenger RNA/mRNA to the ribosomes, and the muscle fiber increase in size.
Interestingly, when one stops training and the muscle mass is lost, the nuclei in the fibers still seem to be there, at least for a long time. And when one starts to train again, the muscle grows back to its previous size much faster.
(Muscle memory)

Can you recruit more satellite cells in 4 weeks, does it depend on how big you are, will the fiber grow in size as well?
Yes, probably, maybe.

But we're not only looking at the kick in time for Tren e, since I wanted it as a heavy androgen along with the insulin .
Will it be there, in circulation, along with the insulin for 2 weeks, providing anabolic synergy and hindering fat gain?

[Mr.BB]

Well, I'm on nebido, so I believe that's not high TRT dosage.

Just finishing tren e blast and kicked in more or less at the same time, there's not really a set in stone timetable (or my records lack a bit lol), but there was definitely a change in the weight I could use at 4-5 weeks in, and its a cut so my carbs are a bit low from my usual.

[Couchlock]

Methylphenidate? With tren your going to need a DA and I won't mix the two.

Have you ever tried it before?

Ritalin?

[tarmyg]

Did I miss the reason for why you need to do this ridiculous cycle?

[Strongblood]

DocToxin, it's always good to shoot for good values in bw. And if you're trying to accomplish that in 9 weeks. I can understand that! You could do a good blast of Test ace for about 5 weeks along with the slin. I think you will be in good shape for your bw after 9 weeks with that cycle. Good luck bro!

[DocToxin8]

Ritalin?

Yeah. It's light on the cardiovascular system, reduces prolactin by inhibiting the dopamine transporter/DAT (released DA isn't removed from the synaptic cleft by reuptake), increased lipolysis/fat loss, boost mood and stabilize/calms you down, but can still increase energy.
It's also very synergistic with caffeine, but that increase side effects like sweating, jitteryness, etc.
It's non addictive (for most people).
And finally it has a short duration of action.

[DocToxin8]

Anyone interested in a cycle log on this?
Think I'll call it "Forrest Gumps demented cycle" or something.

I'll probably continue to tweak it, that's how planned/stupid it is.
Started yesterday:
(But remember I Allready have AAS in my system,
Ex. Day-4: 200mg Tren e, 100mg masteron
Day-3: 20mg oral winstrol
Day-2: 20mg oral winstrol
Day-1: 100mg test.prop, 20mg o. Winstrol)

Cycle:
Day 1: insulatard@12u, 30mg winstrol
Day 2: 100mg test.prop, 30mg winstrol, hCG @500u, 300mg Tren e. AND....
I'm still on day 2.

Stupid is as stupid does.

I can ofcourse abort at any time and rather just use hCG with some testogel.

[Couchlock]

Yeah. It's light on the cardiovascular system, reduces prolactin by inhibiting the dopamine transporter/DAT (released DA isn't removed from the synaptic cleft by reuptake), increased lipolysis/fat loss, boost mood and stabilize/calms you down, but can still increase energy.
It's also very synergistic with caffeine, but that increase side effects like sweating, jitteryness, etc.
It's non addictive (for most people).
And finally it has a short duration of action.

Yes I'm no stranger to pharmaceuticals

It prefer adderal

Pure amphetamine mixed salts
No hub bub weird sounding names there

Call me a purist, lol.....

[boisebeast]

I'm also interested to hear why you have to do bloodwork

[4linked]

I'm also interested to hear why you have to do bloodwork

Me also

[DocToxin8]

DocToxin, it's always good to shoot for good values in bw. And if you're trying to accomplish that in 9 weeks. I can understand that! You could do a good blast of Test ace for about 5 weeks along with the slin. I think you will be in good shape for your bw after 9 weeks with that cycle. Good luck bro!

Actually a very good suggestion,
though my access to test ace is a bit limited.
Also, I prefer to run only Pharma grade test,
and I don't think test ace can be found Pharma grade.
But mostly it has to do with availability,
and the fact that it's such an "unusual" ester to use with testosterone over here, that I wouldn't have the freedom to get it from a trusted source.

Test base is more easily available (though also considered quite a "specialist" compound. It's ofcourse also always UGL though, and I only have a 10ml experience with it. Based on that I wouldn't run it for 6-7 weeks.

Ideally I should run prop then ace or base at the very end I think.
But were ace available from a trusted source id go with that (the entire cycle), very good suggestion Strongblood.

[DocToxin8]

I'm also interested to hear why you have to do bloodwork

Oh, simply to show the wife that I've quit AAS use.
(If it were only her I'd just falsify a blood test though)
That I understand that it's society that should dictate what I put in my body,
and have proof for other parties also.

I'm not really trying to fool anyone,
however i don't want to conform either.

[DocToxin8]

I'm still just going with the test.prop, winstrol and support meds like hCG , etc.
oh, and I'd continue long acting insulin today.
Perhaps adding 25mg anadrol .

Beginning to think I'll use just enough AAS to work well with the insulin.
(Drol with winny ain't ideal though, but it's a compound that I react very well to now)

What's quite strange is that I've allready lost some body fat,
(I did have quite a high amount though, for me anyways)
I really noticed that after the first day of long acting insulin.
(I did however follow a strict diet, by which I mean low fat, the whole day.
Next day I didn't use slin and I upped fat again,
And today I'm going low fat and using slin again.)

It's obviously very possible to burn fat while on insulin,
which is my experience with rapid slin as well.

[RamboQuarterSegment]

DocToxin8...... Anabolic steroids typically don't kill a person. I mean if you really overdo it, for example a cycle like:

1.5g / wk Testosterone , 1.2g / wk Trenbolone , 100mg Dianabol ED

then you might end up in hospital with a severe kidney or liver injury.... you'll lose your gains and your life will be turned upside down.... and you might end up in a mental hospital........ but people don't typically die from that though.

Are you aware though of what happens when Insulin goes wrong?

[RamboQuarterSegment]

I want the LH&FSH values that my pituitary secretes when there's low levels of sex hormones in my system

Which sex hormones?