Using short and long esters to maximize gains during a cycle

[cousinmuscles]

Hello everyone,

I got disappointed this cycle because I spent 6 weeks feeling the same and not getting strength gains - seems I am a slow metabolizer. I am using cypionate and I am getting the kind of results I want now though. I am just pondering about using different esters for future cycles. My future plan is to start and end with propionate to make use of all weeks of the cycle. Though I don't really know what is going INSIDE my body despite not feeling being "on" those first weeks. Specifically I don't know if the cypionate stacked with propionate is the same thing as double the dose OR if the cypionate really is so slow that, in effect, stacking both will not translate to double the weekly dosage. Here is what I have thought as a solution for my next cycle, next year (yeah I know, I just want to figure things out):

Week 1-2, 75mg propionate ED, 250mg cypionate E3D (250iu HCG E3D henceforth, 12.5mg aromasin ED)
Week 3-4, 50mg propionate ED, 250mg cypionate E3D
Week 5-6, 25mg propionate ED, 250mg cypionate E3D
Week 7-onward, 250mg cypionate E3D
2 weeks before cycle end, 75mg propionate ED

3 days after last prop shot PCT START:
Week 1 Clomid 50mg, nolva 40mg
Week 2 Clomid 25mg, nolva 20mg
Week 3-4, Clomid 25mg, nolva 10mg

My question is, should I taper the dose of the cypionate slowly up to 250mg? Or should I not taper anything and keep propionate at the same until week 6 as with cypionate? I know the effects are slow but I don't know if my body translates this as 1g per week despite that anyway.

To my knowledge propionates half life is 0.8 days while cypionate 5 days, I got this from steroidcalc . com/ about.html which references to Behre HM, Nieschlag E. 1998 Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters.

Thanks in advance!

[Mr.BB]

You need to start cypionate at same time of propionate, but 6 weeks is too long time. Just give it a boost with 1 vial of prop for 2-3 weeks.

It is something I usually do.

[cousinmuscles]

I only picked 6 weeks because cypionate took 6 weeks to kick in during my first cycle (doing it now).

Did you stack or subtract the prop dosage from the cypionate?

[numbere]

That will work but it might be easier to begin the cycle with test c and an oral then finish with prop.

You can pin prop as often as you want but 150mg/EOD will give you the same affect at 75mg/ED but with have the pins.

[cousinmuscles]

That will work but it might be easier to begin the cycle with test c and an oral then finish with prop.

You can pin prop as often as you want but 150mg/EOD will give you the same affect at 75mg/ED but with have the pins.

I like simplicity and I like keeping side effects to a minimum, thats why I did test only. So far though I am happy with how it works and I am getting the strength gains I want (joints won't suffer too much). I have heard often that the strength gains from dbol diminish after its use so it does not interest me much.

[cousinmuscles]

Or, if not dbol, what would be an alternative? Anavar seems like it wont give much side effects though availability and cost is an issue for my part.

[numbere]

I like simplicity and I like keeping side effects to a minimum, thats why I did test only. So far though I am happy with how it works and I am getting the strength gains I want (joints won't suffer too much). I have heard often that the strength gains from dbol diminish after its use so it does not interest me much.

No offense but imo the cycle you outlined above is anything but simple.

There are more, and arguably better, orals than dbol.

[cousinmuscles]

No offense but imo the cycle you outlined above is anything but simple.

There are more, and arguably better, orals than dbol.

No offense taken. It is not simple at all actually, I am trying to put in practice what research has no definite answers on. Though what I meant with simplicity is that I use testosterone as the only compound and I can narrow down any issues that might arise from it. Also I plan on using test at the same dose until I no longer get any gains from it.

Which orals then?

[numbere]

Which orals then?

You really can't go wrong with a test only cycle for any goal.

I got the impression form your OP that you want fast(er) strength gains, and that is where oral anabolics excel.

Assuming that you'll be bulking then adrol, dbol, var and sdrol are all good options.

[cousinmuscles]

You really can't go wrong with a test only cycle for any goal.

I got the impression form your OP that you want fast(er) strength gains, and that is where oral anabolics excel.

Assuming that you'll be bulking then adrol, dbol, var and sdrol are all good options.

I just want to do something about the first 6 weeks. If the long ester takes 6 weeks to kick in, my cycle is cut short by 6 weeks. If I plan to do as much time on as time off then this delayed start is cutting off precious time. All those orals you mentioned interest me though I'd rather exhaust the gains from test first... Then wouldn't it be better if they worked in synergy with test? Like a 1+1=3 type synergy.

[numbere]

... All those orals you mentioned interest me though I'd rather exhaust the gains from test first... Then wouldn't it be better if they worked in synergy with test? Like a 1+1=3 type synergy.

Not necessarily, there's more than one way to plan a cycle for maximum benefit.

Prop is great, it's my favorite version of test and I've used it every other day for some time.

It begins working quickly but strength gains from prop generally take longer than orals.

[cousinmuscles]

Thank you for the prompt replies to both of you, I appreciate it.

Honestly for me gains are measured in strength. I train to beat the book and focus a lot on deadlifts, squats, presses et.c. Cypionate definitely took time until I noticed changes, though when it did, it is amazing. I am jumping up 2-4 reps at the same weight or +2.5-5kg on presses/+5-10kg on deads with the same reps. I rotate exercises and do the same once every 3 weeks so if this pace continues the gains will be amazing.

If strength gains from prop take longer then the whole point of kick starting with a short ester is gone. I am suspecting that it takes a lot of time for testosterone to do it's magic (until it is metabolized and all metabolic/nervous system processes are in effect et.c.).

I'll start with 6 weeks of an oral steroid next time then.

By the way, why do you feel prop is your favorite verion? Any other reason than the time it takes to kick in?

[numbere]

If strength gains from prop take longer then the whole point of kick starting with a short ester is gone. I am suspecting that it takes a lot of time for testosterone to do it's magic (until it is metabolized and all metabolic/nervous system processes are in effect et.c.).

I'll start with 6 weeks of an oral steroid next time then.

By the way, why do you feel prop is your favorite verion? Any other reason than the time it takes to kick in?

I don't want you to get the wrong impression of strength gains from prop.

e.g. You may notice a 5-10 pound increase in strength from prop during the first 1-2 weeks when doing DB rows. Taking dbol or adrol could easily give twice the weight increase on DB rows during the same time period.

I only like to run short blasts 4-8 weeks then go back to a TRT dose for 6-8 weeks.

That's why I prefer short esters.

Short esters are also nice if you want to experiment with different ratios. For example you can use NPP or tren with with a TRT dose of prop all the way up to 500mg+/week in the same cycle and see how you best respond.

[Quester]

Why not do all cycles with short esters, PAIN? Aren't they easier on the organs, gone fast would suggest to me that it takes less work to process and breakdown+same effect on testosterone=win win (+slight pain of injections more frequently). If going in: GO ALL IN, Balls deep! Good things come with cost and dealing with pain is easier than other costs (like diet, which requires discipline and unrewarding experiences for the pallet).

[songdog]

I like simplicity and I like keeping side effects to a minimum, thats why I did test only. So far though I am happy with how it works and I am getting the strength gains I want (joints won't suffer too much). I have heard often that the strength gains from dbol diminish after its use so it does not interest me much.

For a guy who likes simplicity you got me puzzled.Just pick a ester long or short and run with it.Dont work up to a dose start and finish with the one you choose.You make things harder than they need to be.Want a kick start try Tbol!

[cousinmuscles]

Why not do all cycles with short esters, PAIN? Aren't they easier on the organs, gone fast would suggest to me that it takes less work to process and breakdown+same effect on testosterone=win win (+slight pain of injections more frequently). If going in: GO ALL IN, Balls deep! Good things come with cost and dealing with pain is easier than other costs (like diet, which requires discipline and unrewarding experiences for the pallet).

Short ester throughout the cycle is something I have considered though sometimes unforeseen things come up and it's nice to have a long ester in your system. IM injections can also cause scar tissue build up. Diet is no pain for me, I eat the same all year round.

[cousinmuscles]

For a guy who likes simplicity you got me puzzled.Just pick a ester long or short and run with it.Dont work up to a dose start and finish with the one you choose.You make things harder than they need to be.Want a kick start try Tbol!

Yeah I figured it gets too difficult to make it happen. I am going to use an oral for the first 6 weeks next time instead and have gains from two different compounds in one cycle.

[songdog]

Yes it is better that way you were over thinking it.