Im 19....what should i do?!?

[J*U*icEd]

ive been reading alot of threads saying that being 19 and using AS is not a good idea....well to tell you the truth i started using when i was 17....and im on my 4th cycle already....and now that im realizing that my endogenous test levels are high enough to get the results that i want im thinking of holding off with AS until im in my mid to late 20s....do you think i should stop now and start the clomid in the middle of my cycle now????.....or should i wait til im done with this cycle???....and is it just a couple people or does everybody agree that i am too young to use AS???.....thanks guys....any info on this would be greatly appreciated

[sigrabbit]

I will bump this for the experts, but if you all already midcycle, I would finish it and hit the post cycle therapy hard. A blood test after therapy is probably in order too.

[gundam675]

well brother, finish this cycle and hold off for a year and let ur test return normally, i assume u prolly know how to use hcg ! i would use it to help out a bit in the end ! then u can hit em up again when ur 21 - 22 imho ! up to u !

[BIG TEXAN]

Being 19, stop now, start post cycle therapy and let yourself recover. I congradulate you on wising up to this decision. Everyone that has any knowledge about AS use will tell you, you are too young. NOt just a few people. Waiting until mid to late 20's would be perfect in my opinion. Like I said stop now and start post recovery, jup on some creatine while your at it. I wished more young ones as yourself would wise up and quit using until they're older. You have my respect for making this decision.

[OGPackin]

What week are u into ur cycle?

OG

[ripped4fsu]

What are you cycling and how long have you been on?

glad to hear you are going to wait... you'll thank yourself later!

[sin]

yeah its a good idea to stop and its smart that you realized the error of your ways, but 4 cycles later? my guess is the damage, if there is any, has already been done. i think you may as well finish the cycle your on, do a good post cycle recovery, wait a year or so and have your test levels checked. if there are some fluxes in your endocrine system you can have a doc put you on hcg treatment and monitor you until your levels are normal again, in hopes of minimizing long term problems.

[JohnnyB]

Being 19, stop now, start post cycle therapy and let yourself recover. I congradulate you on wising up to this decision. Everyone that has any knowledge about AS use will tell you, you are too young. NOt just a few people. Waiting until mid to late 20's would be perfect in my opinion. Like I said stop now and start post recovery, jup on some creatine while your at it. I wished more young ones as yourself would wise up and quit using until they're older. You have my respect for making this decision.

I agree

JohnnyB

[WiLLpOwEr]

Honestly though, would someone 19 cause that much harm to his system?

I know what your thinking. Your immediate reaction is "YES!". But let's think about it for a second.

If someone is 19, the chances are that he has reached his peak height. Or, the user may feel that his current height is fine enough for him for the rest of his life, so capping off of the bones is, in my opinion, not a problem for someone who is 19.

Then there is the testosterone shutting down issue. Everyone says "your natural testosterone is high enough already", but people forget that no matter how high your natural testosterone is, steriods make your normal test PALE in comparision. So, again in my opinion, additional testosterone would help to build muscle.

"But this person will have his natural testosterone levels shut down!". Yeah, so what. If someone who is 25 takes steroids and has his testosterone levels shut down, why is it any different from having them shut down 6 years earlier? Is it because it becomes a bigger decline? So what!! Just make the clomid/nolvadex post-cycle recovery time longer!

Then there is the "HPTA history", which basically is the way that the hypothalamus tells the pituatary gland to make LH(lutenizing hormone, it tells the testes to make testosterone), and there is a recent belief(whether true or not), that this HPTA system also looks at the HISTORY of testosterone in the system. But is that a problem? Even if the hypothalamus, after novladex/clomid therapy, decides to produce the testosterone that someone who is 25, is that a big problem? It's not like you can't build muscle like that! I've seen NATURAL WOMEN build tons of muscle, so it's not like you need that super-high natural testosterone all the time anyway.

In truth, the only problem I see to taking steroids at 19 is the cost issue. If anyone has any input to this, which is scientifically substantiated, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Sheek]

This was posted by someone at CJM:

ok, time for a reality check. young people can handle juice way better, and there aint gonna be any measurable difference in this guy if he waits 2 years or not. Now on the other hand we got some 50 y/o here upping his levels on juice, and no one is slamming him? hello pulsating prostate? do any of you even realize how much more damage these chemicals can do on an already deteriorating body?

also, what are the REAL side affects with younger use? hmm maybe stunted growth, and the obvious, that could happen at ANY AGE, is gyno, prolonged alteration of hormone levels etc..

now what are the REAL side effects specific to old people, well heart stress is MORE important, and potentially life threatning, BP levels, cholesterol levels, cancerous environment and the list goes on. These temporary things dont get dealt with as easy in old people, and can have deathly, or long lasting consequences.

[ripped4fsu]

This was posted by someone at CJM:

ok, time for a reality check. young people can handle juice way better, and there aint gonna be any measurable difference in this guy if he waits 2 years or not. Now on the other hand we got some 50 y/o here upping his levels on juice, and no one is slamming him? hello pulsating prostate? do any of you even realize how much more damage these chemicals can do on an already deteriorating body?

also, what are the REAL side affects with younger use? hmm maybe stunted growth, and the obvious, that could happen at ANY AGE, is gyno, prolonged alteration of hormone levels etc..

now what are the REAL side effects specific to old people, well heart stress is MORE important, and potentially life threatning, BP levels, cholesterol levels, cancerous environment and the list goes on. These temporary things dont get dealt with as easy in old people, and can have deathly, or long lasting consequences.

Well damn! ok then, I'LL stop, and YOU keep going!!

seroiusly though, consider this... how many AAS users say.. "I just want to do ONE cycle to get some size and I'll stop!" and then proceed to do 10-15 more "last time" cycles.

Now, if you start this trend at 19 instead of 29, think of the increased risk you are running from prolonged use... just playing devils advocate...

[Sheek]

I did not wirte this post, but it gives some other insite on the 'age' issue. I have never done a cycle, I want to learn as much as possible before I put anything in my body. I belive regarless of age, to start cycling you have to have considerable knowledge in training and diet. Just because one hits 25 doesnt automatically make him a canidate to juice. If he just started training, what makes him better then a 20-22 year old that has been training for 3-5 years and knows what he is doing?

[sin]

there is little scientific research in the area of aas. since they are scheduled and regulated you wont see many researchers trying to get into the field. i know because i have tried. and this is not as simple as you have made it out to be, willpower. there are six major hormones released from the anterior pituitary, all of which feed back on one another, not to mention the posterior pituitary, the hypothalmus and the adrenals. throwing test levels way up causes changes in each of these hormone systems, and since the endocrine system doesnt fully mature until the mid twenties each of these hormones may find new balance points, or they may be unable to acheive balance points. the result may be low test levels that are resistant to treatment, hormonal fluxuations like a woman for the rest of your life, and high bp, among others. it is not simply a matter of the closing of the epiphyseal plates, it is a matter of disturbing all of the hormonal balances in the body. so you may think the cost issue is a big deal, but the bigger deal is how pissed you will be at yourself for being a middle aged pseudohermaphrodite that was too much of a know-it-all kid to learn anything anyone was trying to teach.

[Sheek]

"Now, if you start this trend at 19 instead of 29, think of the increased risk you are running from prolonged use... just playing devils advocate..."

This is also true. Many people do not set long-term goals for them selves. They say one cycle, but do they even know what and where they want to be in physical terms? I recently lost 20 lbs with diet and cardio and I am at 6'1 235 w18% bf (20 years old). I dont want to be bigger then 250 with 8% bf. I have set a resonable goal for myself and it will take a couple of years and cycles, not a life time.

[Sheek]

"and since the endocrine system doesnt fully mature until the mid twenties each of these hormones may find new balance points, or they may be unable to acheive balance points."

This is true, but it all depends mid-20's is the general guidline. It also depends on how fast you mature, I have friends that are 20 and that dont even have faical hair, would i advice him to do a cycle? hell no. But i know it goes beyond faical hair, its your whole system, only a doctor can offically tell you when you have fully matured, but 22-25 is a good guidline.

[Sheek]

"it is a matter of disturbing all of the hormonal balances in the body"

Can this hapen at any age or just when you are 19-23?

[WiLLpOwEr]

since the endocrine system doesnt fully mature until the mid twenties.

Sin I absolute agree with what you said. And I know that it is more complicated then I let on, but it is also that simple.

However, the crux of your argument depends on that statement above. I want to see data to back this up. Mid-Twenties? Well, for one thing, I can guarantee that growth hormone doesn't take that long, because many people stop growing in height at 16-18. So that's one hormone out of the picture.

hormonal changes like a woman

What data is there to back this up? I have never heard about this. And why do you feel that it is so unlikely that the hormones will naturally rebalance? I've known many people who have taken testosterone based steroids in high school who do not have these problems. I respect you sin, so I know that you wouldn't make that up, so I am very curious as to what you are referencing here.

On a personal note, no, I am not advocating that teenagers should do steroids of any kind, I am simply saying that there is no difference(as long as you have reached optimum height) from taking steroids at 18-20 or in the mid-twenties.

[sigrabbit]

Not to sound cocky, but without scientific studies how do you know there is no difference? Don't forget that growth hormone effects more than just bone growth. Essentially, you are saying that you are willing to take on the risks of early aging, ie baldness, hbp, etc as a teenager. Why not wait until your body has matured and reached its genetic potential before trying to cheat yourself?

[WiLLpOwEr]

I am saying there is no difference because there is no reason there would be!

[sigrabbit]

Here's an idea, why don't you find some research to prove your theory? It seems like you have made some bold assertions and you expect everyone else to provide the information that will change your mind. People on this board are giving good advice, but some people are stuck on the idea that they are an exception to any inherent risks in a dangerous activity. Good luck.

[J*U*icEd]

well thanks for all the info guys....but all this talk about my hormone levels not being able to go back to normal permanantly is scaring the shit out of me....i mean i was getting blood work regularly for my accutain perscription and after i was done with my last cycle they told me that my levels had gone back to normal but i don't know if they just went back to normal then and could fluxuate again?!?....and no i have never used HCG....i have actually read that HCG will complicate the raising of endogenous test levels and that it could even take longer to get your test levels back up....i don't know if this is true though....i have only used clomid....and that seems to do the trick....and another thing about the permenant fluxuation of my hormone levels.....i myself am very prone to gyno....so is it safe to say that my hormone levels have gone back to normal once i know my glands are not being affected????.....just so everybody knows i have never used a TEST compound in any of my cycles no matter how weird that sounds....another thing i would really like to know as well is how many cycles all you senior members and older users on this board have done!?.....there really needs to be more scientific data on the long term effects of AS....but thanks alot for all the provided info guys....and any more would be just great

week 1-3 winny 50 ED
week 1-10 EQ 400 mg/week
week 6-12 tren EOD
week 11-14 winny 50 ED
clomid 20 days

[sin]

first, if you think that growth hormones only action is involved in height determination, you are mistaken and you should probably do some more research before you attempt to argue this point. secondly as i pointed out in my previous post there is little primary literature in the area of aas so, in some ways you are right willpower there is no data, only info that has been passed on in random books and people through the years. boards like this exist because there is little research in these areas and this is one of the only ways to get and pass on info of this nature. so the idea that steroids do more long term damage to younger people is one that has been passed on mostly from peoples personal experiences; and the consensus is that there is more possibility of problems in young people.
i have pretty good knowledge of the endocrine system and i know that there is a shift in testosterone from litte after birth, to huge amounts (1000+mg/dl) at puberty, and then a leveling off (400-1000mg/dl)around the mid twenties . this is text book knowledge and if you want proof pick up a good physiology or endocrinology book. i also know that if you down regulate testosterone production many hormones work to balance it out. if your body is unable to produce the right amount of testosterone then these hormones will bounce around continually leading to hormonal fluxuations. i just recently saw a paper on a young steroid user that was resistant to hcg treatment and it took months of daily shots to restore test levels, ill see if i can find the references for you.
so anyway as i have said in previous posts of this type it is better to be safe for a few years, than sorry for many years. a lot of young folks dont want to listen to any of these things, and i probably wouldnt when i was that age either, but i know now that aas are a thinking mans game and if you cant think through what you are doing, you shouldnt be playing.

[testro]

I don't want to be the aim of criticism here, but I am one of those young AS users you are all talking about. I am 20 years old. I am a Biology major/exercise science minor and like to beleive I know more about training and dieting than many people at my age. I starting using when I was 19 and since have done 2 cycles (test enanth. 350mg/week and test prop 300mg/week). I am currently on a cycle right now of test enanth 400mg/week and primobolan 200mg/week. As you can see, my cycles are extremley mild and I always run good post cycle therapy and allow myself ample time off. I also have a doctor who monitors my test levels, bp, cholesterol, and heart on and off cycle. I'd like to say from experience that using gear at ages 19 and 20 did not effet anything a doctor could detect. I am well aware that that does not mean nothing was effected, but I would like to say that if you ARE like me and decide to take AS at such a young age, keep them short, keep them mild, and have blood tests frequently from a doctor you can place trust in.

On a personal note, I respect all of your opinons and am by no means an expert. I just didn't see very much if any insight from any young AS users on this thread and thought I would post my experice in the hopes it would help.

[sharky]

I Really Dont Think You Have Anything To Worry About At This Time Unless You Have Been Doing Very High Levels Of Test Up To This Point. I Would Finish This One And Waita While For The Next One.(21 Yrs Of Age) Get Your Oun Levels Back To Normal And Grow As Much As Possible Till Then On Your Own. Then Hit It Again And Hard. Waiting That Long Will Kinda Trick Your Body Into Thinking It Is All New Again.

[WiLLpOwEr]

Sin, first of all, I want to thank you for taking the time to make an intelligent reply. Many people would have simply given up the arguement, but not you, and I(and many others who seek answers to this controversy) thank you.

First of all, I know that growth hormone is not solely responsible for height. I was simply providing another angle to the agrument that's all. I'm going to try to highlight your points and say what I think about them.

1) Your first point,

mostly from peoples personal experiences

Is, in my opinion, very distorted. People like testro, and many of my friends, have used steroids in the age range of 18-22 and do not suffer from a lack of testosterone or fluctuating levels, or incorrect balance points in their hormone levels. I know this because they have been tested. As for myself, I have used Anavar at 15 years old, and I don't suffer from anything unusual, although I have not been tested. I know that anavar is A LOT different than testosterone, because it does not affect the HPTA, but I'm just citing another example.

2) Ok, thank you for giving a reason for your position on the decline of testosterone production at mid-twenties. I will take your word for it. However, is the sole reason you think that there will be hormone fluctuations and unrecoverable testosterone production the fact that the system is not "mature"? Do you believe that through the years, the body somehow learns the ability to recover and balance back into normal hormone production when additional testosterone is introduced into the system? Why would that be? Or, do you think that the reason there would be fluctuations the fact that there would be a larger drop when the testosterone is introduced? For another growth hormone example, I have heard of children getting growth hormone injections to increase growth, and they are able to recover and continue to grow afterwards. Again, I know that growth hormone is different than testosterone, I am simply citing another example.

3) I absolutely agree with your 3rd point,

aas are a thinking mans game and if you cant think through what you are doing, you shouldnt be playing.

I am not saying that all 18-22 year olds should be taking steroids. Absolutely not, in fact, I think one of the main reasons why I would not recommend them is because of the lack of knowledge. They do not know how to cycle right, or how to introduce clomid/nolvadex post-therapy(or that it even exists!). However, if you are 18-22 years old, understand how steroids work and how to post-cycle, and have the correct cycle dosages, then I see no reason why a not to do a few cycles.

[WiLLpOwEr]

bump for sin

[gundam675]

bump bump !

[sin]

sorry folks ive been out of town for a few days, but ill get back to this thread this evening

[sin]

alright, im gonna change gears on this thread. i want to ask you willpower, why you feel the way you do. is it because you have knowledge that steroids dont, or wont effect young people? you have made some good arguments, but none that are based in scientific reasoning that you expect in reply. my point is that i think you have made a decision, and your not going to change your point of view. you sound like you are intelligent, and have thought through your decision to use aas, but one of the biggest pieces of having educated mind is allowing yourself to consider things you dont want to be correct. im more than happy to continue to argue these points, but i dont think it will change your mind about anything.

[WiLLpOwEr]

OK sin, I'll tell you why I feel that anabolic steriods in the age range of 18-22 have no difference from someone in mid-twenties.

1) From my above points, I can see no reason why they would affect anyone's levels. I also have not heard of anyone who has used them in the aforementioned age range have any problems later in life. Also, it does not make sense to me that the body would somehow learn the ability to deal with excess testosterone and balance itself out once it's own natural testosterone has leveled off in the mid-twenties.

2) sin, this post is not about me. The fact that I did steroids already has absolutely nothing to do with my position on this matter. I am not trying to make myself feel more comfortable(because if I was, would I even be looking at this thread, taking a chance to see a study which would impact me negatively?). I know that the assumption is that I want to do steroids again and I am looking to justify my actions(I am 18 right now), but that is not the case.

3) sin, my whole point for arguing with you was to make you change my mind. I am always looking for the correct truth in life, whether it be knowledge or philosophy(I am an existentialist/athiest/nihilist/idealist, if you know what those are you will know what I mean by my pursuit of truth). Please do not think that I am trying to insult your intelligence. I am simply hoping that someone has an argument to either agree with or disagree with my points. And I would certainly appreciate it if you or someone else qualified in the endocrine field could make comments about my previous post.

[sigrabbit]

I think JohnnyB needs to respond to this post.

[WiLLpOwEr]

bump for sin

[Full Intensity]

Great post guys way to keep shit clean and a big bump for the maturity level of this thread. Sin that was some text book advice you gave, almost reminds me of the books sorry replys TNT use to write

[sin]

allright this is where im gonna start with this. there is little research out there, and i cant get the full text of this, so if you have acess to pubmed etc at school willpower, get the full article. here is the abstract.

Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1982 Mar;11(1):57-87. Related Articles, Links


Pubertal development: normal, precocious and delayed.

Ducharme JR, Collu R.

The present concepts on the neuroendocrine mechanisms which trigger pubertal development and modulate the progression towards sexual maturity have been reviewed. Essentially, puberty is presented as a continuum, the programming of which is initiated prenatally and which ends in adult life when all hormonal secretions become autoregulated. This continuum is dependent on a delicate equilibrium between CNS neurohormones (GnRH), neurotransmitters (biogenic amines), pituitary gonadotrophin (FSH, LH) secretion and the end-organ response (testis or ovary) through the activation of specific membrane receptors. The gonadal sex steroids (T, OE2) will activate specific cytoplasmic and nuclear receptors of target tissues and exert their biological action. Initially, the activity of the HPGA is manifested by nocturnal LH peaks, followed by increased gonadal secretion of T or OE2. Extremely sensitive to negative feedback by circulating androgen and/or oestrogen in prepuberty, an hypothalamic regulatory system called the gonadostat increases its threshold of sensitivity and eventually becomes autoregulated at a higher feedback level. Progressively, the hypothalamus becomes sensitive to positive feedback action of gonadal hormones, this phenomenon being important for the onset of ovulation. It is likely also that adrenal androgens play a permissive and supportive role in the onset and progression of pubertal development. Finally, full maturity is reached, with final adult height through fusion of the epiphysis, and fertility is achieved. The clinical manifestations of each developmental stage of puberty are described and abnormalities of sexual development reviewed. While over 90 per cent of cases of precocious pubertal development are idiopathic in girls, a space-occupying lesion in the hypothalamic-pituitary region is frequent in boys. Dissociated pubertal signs (premature adrenarche, pubarche, thelarche, menarche) are discussed, together with diagnosis and treatment of precocious puberty, whether it is idiopathic or occurring independently of the activation of the HPGA. In addition to delay of puberty on a constitutional basis, or related to chronic endocrine or non-endocrine diseases, the main clinical entities with gonadal insufficiency, primary (hypergonadotrophic) or secondary (hypogonadotrophic), are reviewed in boys and girls and their investigation and treatment discussed.

[WiLLpOwEr]

Unfourtunately sin, two things:

1) The abstract you posted did not tell me much, other than a detailed description of how hormones work, and that maturity is reached once the epiphysis are fused together.

2) I looked at pubmed.com for the full article on this, but I could not find it. Sin, if you can try to explain what you were trying to say is true from this article, I would appreciate an explanation, because I honestly do not see the signifigance of this article.

[Sheek]

Bump

[FKITLETSGO]

I know many of 19 yr old's who are on they're 6th and 7th cycle lol. That doesn't help here b/c we cannot determine the long term affects but I do know this. each and every one of them have been able to level off the gains achieved through AAS and I have one guy rigth now who is a year and half clean who is bigger now than before after a cycle. His harmone sure weren't fkd up.

[WiLLpOwEr]

Does anyone have any additional information/insight/studies on this topic? Please read the entire post before you add something by the way, so that we can be sure you are on the same page.

[J*U*icEd]

well too keep you guys posted on my progress....since i did start this thread....i have stopped the cycle at week 5 and went into post therpy....ive been gettin regular blood work to check on my test levels so i think i did the right thing....i don't plan on doin another cycle for another year or so....but one other question how long does it take for ur endogenous test levels to get back to normal???

--another thing seeing as how i have all this juice lying around....im tryin to plan my next cycle to see what i want to get rid of now.....this is the plan for about a year or year and a half from now.....

1-10 sust 500 mg/week
1-10 EQ 200 mg/week
1-12 tren 75 EOD......

i was thinkin this might be too much all at one time so im tryin to think of whether or not to get rid of the tren or EQ or just do it all....any critism would be greatly appreciated.....and thanks for all the help on this thread guys

[Kayslay]

Bump, this thread is interesting.