How much volume should training have on cycle?

[TiduZ1492]

I haven't done a cycle yet but my training looks like this:
12 reps per set of maximum weight
chest 11 sets/week
back 11 sets/week
shoulders 10 sets/week
triceps 6 sets/week
biceps 6 sets/week
legs 11 sets/week

Would I want to increase this while on a (first) cycle with test-e?

Obviously pro bodybuilders spend many hours a day in the gym. Does that require something more than "just" steroids?

[PT1982]

You would be surprised at just how long pros spend in the gym. Not as much as you would think by reading magazines and articles. For adding mass, it looks like you are doing more than needed. As with most of my clients (myself included), high intensity low reps are generally well suited for almost all people universally. I always start people slow, but gradually build up intensity to what they are capable of. Mass building programs that you see online and in magazines will usually say 4 sets per exercise with 10-12 reps. This is ok for a recomp or cut, but for mass I find it way too much and it will slow growth. I'll give you an example of say a chest day:

Incline DB press 3 sets, 4-6 reps
Flat bench DB press 3 sets, 4-6 reps
DB flyes 3 sets of 4-6
And I like a burnout set of cable x-overs of a low to moderate weight to stretch out and give an additional pump. Also throwing in a couple sets of dips is always a good idea.
The intensity is the most important aspect. I've seen Marcus touch on this many times. You need to put your mind in a place outside of everything else. And when doing low reps, you should be failing by the 6th rep. You don't want to easily get the 6th when you know you could squeeze out 1 or 2 more reps. This will take a little while to figure out, so use week one to figure your weights. Write everything down! All on all, you should be in and out within 30 minutes (45 max) on chest day. When you leave the gym, you want to have that specific muscle shot. And don't work it daily, a mistake made by many over zealous young guys. Hit chest once, maybe twice if it's lagging.
I used chest as an example. You can mix and match to your desired regime. Just make those muscles hurt and feel it for 2 days after. You'll get there. And as far as a cut/recomp, 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps (failing at that number) is a decent way to achieve goals for that. Hope this helps.

[Marsoc]

I haven't done a cycle yet but my training looks like this:
12 reps per set of maximum weight
chest 11 sets/week
back 11 sets/week
shoulders 10 sets/week
triceps 6 sets/week
biceps 6 sets/week
legs 11 sets/week

Would I want to increase this while on a (first) cycle with test-e?

Obviously pro bodybuilders spend many hours a day in the gym. Does that require something more than "just" steroids?

That's pretty bland and lacks detail. Do you just do one workout?

To save all the typing. Just search my thread called "earth gym" and check for some examples of my workouts on the last 2pages or so. The first few pages was me just working with what little I had. The last page or 2 I'm actualy working out at a gym with a selection of equipment etc. I do heavy weight high volume , high intensity achieved with various methods

[songdog]

Goggle Dorian Yates hit workout!

[PT1982]

Goggle Dorian Yates hit workout!

This is almost exactly how I base my workouts. Dorian has been one of my biggest influences because his routines aren't exclusive to one body type or another. He could do 10 sets and about have to be dragged out of the gym. It seems like it's not a lot of effort on paper. But in real life, it's brutal.

[TiduZ1492]

You would be surprised at just how long pros spend in the gym. Not as much as you would think by reading magazines and articles. For adding mass, it looks like you are doing more than needed. As with most of my clients (myself included), high intensity low reps are generally well suited for almost all people universally. I always start people slow, but gradually build up intensity to what they are capable of. Mass building programs that you see online and in magazines will usually say 4 sets per exercise with 10-12 reps. This is ok for a recomp or cut, but for mass I find it way too much and it will slow growth. I'll give you an example of say a chest day:

Incline DB press 3 sets, 4-6 reps
Flat bench DB press 3 sets, 4-6 reps
DB flyes 3 sets of 4-6
And I like a burnout set of cable x-overs of a low to moderate weight to stretch out and give an additional pump. Also throwing in a couple sets of dips is always a good idea.
The intensity is the most important aspect. I've seen Marcus touch on this many times. You need to put your mind in a place outside of everything else. And when doing low reps, you should be failing by the 6th rep. You don't want to easily get the 6th when you know you could squeeze out 1 or 2 more reps. This will take a little while to figure out, so use week one to figure your weights. Write everything down! All on all, you should be in and out within 30 minutes (45 max) on chest day. When you leave the gym, you want to have that specific muscle shot. And don't work it daily, a mistake made by many over zealous young guys. Hit chest once, maybe twice if it's lagging.
I used chest as an example. You can mix and match to your desired regime. Just make those muscles hurt and feel it for 2 days after. You'll get there. And as far as a cut/recomp, 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps (failing at that number) is a decent way to achieve goals for that. Hope this helps.

So as I switch to bulking I should keep intensity high and reduce reps from 12 to 6 (and rest times around 2 minutes?).

Should there be any change between not using steroids and on? Do they let you do more volume and gain benefit from that? Or are you simply doing higher weights with the extra strength, but doing the same number of sets?

[wellshii]

As a natty,I would vary volume from hihg to low and split it(two chest days,etc)
That has worked for me,and studies have shown it tends to keep the body in an anabolic state.11 sets on one muscle group in one sitting is a waste of time .

[PT1982]

So as I switch to bulking I should keep intensity high and reduce reps from 12 to 6 (and rest times around 2 minutes?).

Should there be any change between not using steroids and on? Do they let you do more volume and gain benefit from that? Or are you simply doing higher weights with the extra strength, but doing the same number of sets?

It's really relative. That was an example of a mass building routine on cycle. Being natty, I would mix it a little. Maybe 2 of the 4 exercises go to 10-12 reps, but 2 I would do low reps. That is for mass. When I'm cruising (not on blast), I keep my workouts pretty close to the same. I'll usually add a 4th exercise and stay at the 4-6 rep range, maybe 6-8 or 10 on one of the exercises.

[Obs]

6-8 rep range 3 sets per excersize 30 seconds rest between sets with 6-7 excersizes per group.

After six weeks you will need to recooperate. On or off cycle it will transform you. Go to absolute failure. The hardest part of this will be getting your head into it well enough to go to true failure every set. After the third exercise you will want to give up but you just push harder till the end.
Try it

[PT1982]

6-8 rep range 3 sets per excersize 30 seconds rest between sets with 6-7 excersizes per group.

After six weeks you will need to recooperate. On or off cycle it will transform you. Go to absolute failure. The hardest part of this will be getting your head into it well enough to go to true failure every set. After the third exercise you will want to give up but you just push harder till the end.
Try it

So true. On paper this sounds simple and would accomplish nothing. When I write up weekly routines for people (mostly teenage to early 20 males), they laugh. But if they do it correctly, they'll dread that last set, lol. Nothing better than spotting a cocky 18 year old and have them shaking and spitting on the 3 or 4th rep of the first set!

[Obs]

So true. On paper this sounds simple and would accomplish nothing. When I write up weekly routines for people (mostly teenage to early 20 males), they laugh. But if they do it correctly, they'll dread that last set, lol. Nothing better than spotting a cocky 18 year old and have them shaking and spitting on the 3 or 4th rep of the first set!

I dug seven foot deep holes with a shovel daily, furious worker, my bicep days still bring me to my knees wanting to puke, I only recently decreased the rest times. When I finish I crawl outside in the cold air and steam rolls off me.

I would love to watch one of the teenagers I worked over try an hit routine. 30 minutes of hellfire is all it takes.

[PT1982]

I dug seven foot deep holes with a shovel daily, furious worker, my bicep days still bring me to my knees wanting to puke, I only recently decreased the rest times. When I finish I crawl outside in the cold air and steam rolls off me.

I would love to watch one of the teenagers I worked over try an hit routine. 30 minutes of hellfire is all it takes.

I love those days though! At my age and health, anytime I workout like that feels like a miracle. It happens much more these days as I try to maintain the years of hard work I've put into building what I want. My Dr's day it's probably not good for me, but what do they know, haha. Heavy weights, low reps, high intensity....I just don't think it can be beat. As good as the results are, I often skip cardio, which could be my demise.

[TiduZ1492]

I recently switched from 4 minutes of rest to 2 and noticed a big increase in difficulty, so I can imagine 30 seconds with 20 sets is gonna be pretty difficult (and I'll have to decrease the weight to an embarrassing amount). I will give it a try.

[Obs]

I recently switched from 4 minutes of rest to 2 and noticed a big increase in difficulty, so I can imagine 30 seconds with 20 sets is gonna be pretty difficult (and I'll have to decrease the weight to an embarrassing amount). I will give it a try.

Do not worry about the weight. Leave your ego at the door is the first thing any HIT program requires. We all look ridiculous trying to curl 25 lbs shaking and spitting and elk bugling, it is part of it. The end result is as good as it gets. Anyone can laugh but if they try it they will be doing the same. The fact that you have tiny amounts of weight at the end means you did it right.

[Marsoc]

As a study suggested. As long as you go to true failure or beyond. I'm talking if you know you can't get the next rep up. Try anyways..of course I'm sure time under pressure matters. So you can challenge your muscle with enough weight and enough volume for each set to give the muscle enough time under pressure. I personaly don't like going over ten reps for one set. I rather go for total volume. So if I'm doing a triple drop set, I'm using weight I can only get up 3 times, then I dropping weight and repeat doing 3 rep max form3'sets until I reach the total number of 10 reps. This way I'm doing heavy weight high reps..but like I said u can be complex as that..i do it cuz I like to. Or you can simply achieve failure through various means of intensity or anyways you want. I feel if you go over 10 reps on one set you might as well be doing aerobics lol

[Marsoc]

6-8 rep range 3 sets per excersize 30 seconds rest between sets with 6-7 excersizes per group.

After six weeks you will need to recooperate. On or off cycle it will transform you. Go to absolute failure. The hardest part of this will be getting your head into it well enough to go to true failure every set. After the third exercise you will want to give up but you just push harder till the end.
Try it

Yessir

[Marsoc]

I recently switched from 4 minutes of rest to 2 and noticed a big increase in difficulty, so I can imagine 30 seconds with 20 sets is gonna be pretty difficult (and I'll have to decrease the weight to an embarrassing amount). I will give it a try.

wow,2-4 minutes rest. Wow. I do 30 seconds. After,a,triple super set or drop set even. It's elevates your hormones more. It's not embarrassing to drop weight. It means you're doing something right and fatiguing your muscles..sometimes I'll drop set all the way down the dumbbell rack until I'm doing side delt raises or tricep press or whatever workout I'm doing with 10 lb weights only getting like 4-5 reps..lol whatever gets the job done to reach your goals

[PT1982]

I recently switched from 4 minutes of rest to 2 and noticed a big increase in difficulty, so I can imagine 30 seconds with 20 sets is gonna be pretty difficult (and I'll have to decrease the weight to an embarrassing amount). I will give it a try.

20 sets at 4 minute breaks? Do you ever leave the gym? Lol. Can you post a sample workout? Do arms since that's always a fun day.

[Marsoc]

Usually one waits 3 minutes between sets if they are doing 1 rep max etc. so they can gain full strength back before going again.

[Obs]

Usually one waits 3 minutes between sets if they are doing 1 rep max etc. so they can gain full strength back before going again.

Yes. Lifting for strength and lifting for mass are entirely different things. If someone wants strength 600@50 has a school of info to learn from. For mass Marcus300 can help a lot.

Marsoc here is what I refer to as a power guy. Speed strength endurance.

[Marsoc]

All about efficiency baby. Best of both worlds

[ScotchGuard02]

I haven't done a cycle yet but my training looks like this:
12 reps per set of maximum weight
chest 11 sets/week
back 11 sets/week
shoulders 10 sets/week
triceps 6 sets/week
biceps 6 sets/week
legs 11 sets/week

Would I want to increase this while on a (first) cycle with test-e?

Obviously pro bodybuilders spend many hours a day in the gym. Does that require something more than "just" steroids?

I've done a lot of reading on this topic over the years. This is what I found works well with me. 1) no more than 12 sets per muscle group, 2) 4 exercises and 3 sets per exercise, 3) 10 reps per sets, 4) "good" failure at rep 9 or 10, 5) between 2 to 3 minutes between sets, 6) 3 to 4 minutes rest with heavy weights. The theory is to maximize muscle utilization and minimize central nervous system stress. There's a lot more but that's the nutshell.

[Mr.BB]

Different cycle objective can have different training approaches, for example if you want to bring muscle details for a show, or size.

If the main objective is just to grow, what works off cycle will work better on cycle. So, no need to change anything, not really. Although many guys do increase volume on cycle, IMO thats not wise if you are looking for size.

Having said that, have to agree that intensity is the most important thing to pursue both on and off cycle.

[kelkel]

To me one of the simplest and best "rules of thumb" when it comes to rest between sets is to start your next set when your heart rate returns to relative normal. Naturally for heavy compound movements this will take a bit longer than isolation exercises. Thing is to focus between sets as well, not to walk around the gym, look at your phone, talk to your buddies, etc. They're the guys that will look the exact same a year from now so fvck them. Don't be them.

Sit down between sets or whatever makes you comfortable, drink some water and get ready for your next set. You'll be surprised how quickly you can be ready, even for heavy compound movements.

There are only two real ways to increase intensity. Increase the weight or shorten the rest periods. Either one done to quickly or extreme will not be of any help to you. My .02

[TiduZ1492]

6-8 rep range 3 sets per excersize 30 seconds rest between sets with 6-7 excersizes per group.

After six weeks you will need to recooperate. On or off cycle it will transform you. Go to absolute failure. The hardest part of this will be getting your head into it well enough to go to true failure every set. After the third exercise you will want to give up but you just push harder till the end.
Try it

I did this yesterday, back/biceps, but with 40 seconds instead of 30 and less exercises but same number of sets. Had to abandon a lot of reps halfway through. Heart rate was high through the last half. More sore than usual 24 hours later. A lot different than what I'm used to and I need to learn more exercises, but I think I like it.

[PT1982]

I did this yesterday, back/biceps, but with 40 seconds instead of 30 and less exercises but same number of sets. Had to abandon a lot of reps halfway through. Heart rate was high through the last half. More sore than usual 24 hours later. A lot different than what I'm used to and I need to learn more exercises, but I think I like it.

Good to hear. Keep it up, and keep us posted.

[Obs]

I did this yesterday, back/biceps, but with 40 seconds instead of 30 and less exercises but same number of sets. Had to abandon a lot of reps halfway through. Heart rate was high through the last half. More sore than usual 24 hours later. A lot different than what I'm used to and I need to learn more exercises, but I think I like it.

Its hard brother. Stick with it, its all about the psyche. Charge in like an angry, horny, bull

[ScotchGuard02]

I haven't done a cycle yet but my training looks like this:
12 reps per set of maximum weight
chest 11 sets/week
back 11 sets/week
shoulders 10 sets/week
triceps 6 sets/week
biceps 6 sets/week
legs 11 sets/week

Would I want to increase this while on a (first) cycle with test-e?

Obviously pro bodybuilders spend many hours a day in the gym. Does that require something more than "just" steroids?

Heavy weights doesn't cause over training, too much time in the gym does. IMO, you need to mix volume training with heavy training. Why? Each uses different energy systems. In volume training you break down muscle tissue but very quickly, in one or two reps. The energy system doesn't use up all the energy provided through eating. You notice how power lifters are built? Volume training uses more energy due to the amount of work done during the workout. High volume training, 20 sets or 30 sets per muscle group, is not necessary. I read that Arnold did 20 sets per muscle group but he's a genetic freak. Based on my experience, 12 sets of 10 reps is the max I can ask of my body. This is assuming that you reach "good fail" by the 10th rep in each set. Heavy lifting is used to bulk but puts a lot of load on the connecting tissues. Higher volume sets with lower weights allows the body to recover from the stresses of heavy lifting. In Ronnie's "Slingshot Training" (see Workout Forum), he advocates 2 weeks of lower intensity workout and 8 weeks of high intensity "blast" phase as the 10 week cycle to incorporate both the heavy and recovery work sessions. For me personally, I need 3 weeks of lower intensity workouts to recover from the 8 weeks of high intensity workout. My joints aren't what they used to be.