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I am looking for information onAAS stacking and how the fight for the receptors affects the qty of AAS.
For example, if you are stacking test and decca, how does the fight for the receptors work. Should you lower the test to allow more decca to attach to the receptors?
I have not been able to find much information and I know that there are some very knowledgeable people on this forum that caneither provide information or direct me to studies.
Later today I'm gonna look up the molecular mass of Testosterone, Nandrolone, Testosterone Enanthate, and Nandrolone Decanoate.Quote:
Originally Posted by charger69
Then I'll calculate how many molecules of Testosterone and Nandrolone you shall have in your blood from a regular dosing schedule of 400mg E3D for each chemical.
Then I'll try to calculate the amount of androgen receptors in muscles, I think I might be able to approximate this by calculating the surface-area of the cross-section of the muscle (e.g. biscep) and treating it as a cylinder.
Not sure if I'll have much success but it might give an idea of whether you can fill all your receptors before you die of liver failure.
Interested as well. I believe in the one third test to twothirds 19 nor idea. 150 mg test 450 deca or tren.Quote:
Originally Posted by charger69
Currently 150 test 700 npp per week.
You do that and hurry up with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Lover
I'll use Phil Heath. His arms are 23" in diameter and about a foot long. That's a cylinder of muscle of about 505 cubic inches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obspowerstroke
I'll calculate this 2 or 3 different ways (e.g. using blood concentration in ng/dl) to see if it's in any way accurate.
I am all about using the less androgenic compound at lower doses. Example of this is to run test at a trt dose(100-150mgs) and run the deca at say 500mgs weekly. I used to run it equal, but I got much better results with a lot less sides, especially with tren. Often times when I use tren, I'll run my test even lower. There is certainly some competition for the receptors, and compounds such as tren will win out over test every time at equal doses. I've ran test and tren at say 500mgs each, or 500mgs test/250mgs tren a week and had God awful sides. Then I've ran say 800mgs of tren with 150mgs of test and the sides were minimal to non existent.
If I use deca on blast, I like 600mgs and 150mgs of test. That's my favorite way to do it. Let the more powerful compound be the workhorse of the cycle.
Hey PT, glad to see your back!
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Molar mass of Testosterone = 288.42 g/mol
Molar mass of Nandrolone = 274.40 g/mol
Molar mass of Testosterone Enanthate = 400.603 g/mol
Molar mass of Nandrolone Decanoate = 428.657 g/mol
I calculate that Testosterone Enanthate is 72% Testosterone (by mass).
I calculate that Nandrolone Decanoate is 64% Nandrolone (by mass).
So if you take 400mg Test E with 400mg DecaDurabolin, you've got 288mg of Testosterone with 256mg of Nandrolone.
If I convert from miligrams to moles for each chemical, then:
288mg of Testosterone = 1 moles of Testosterone
256mg of Nandrolone = 0.93 moles of Nandrolone
So when you inject yourself with 400mg Test E and 400mg DecaDurabolin, you're getting 1 mole of Testosterone and 0.93 moles of Nandrolone.
To find out how many molecules this is, we multiple by Avogadro's Constant which is 6.022 x 10^23.
So 1 mole of Testosterone = 6.022 x 10^23 molecules of Testosterone.
And 0.93 moles of Nandrolone = 5.601 x 10^23 molecules of Nandrolone.
Add these two huge numbers together to get the total amount of molecules of AAS you're injecting yourself with:
6.022 x 10^23 + 5.601 x 10^23 = 11.623 x 10^23
That number is 1,163,200,000,000,000,000,000,000
which in English is something like One septilion one hundred sixty-three sextillion two hundred quintillion
So next I have to figure out how many androgen receptors there are in Phil Heath's body.
I decided to take his left bicep & tricep first. His upper arm is 23" thick and about a foot long. If I treat that as a cylinder then it's about 505 cubic inches of muscle. The density of human muscle is about 1.06 kg/litre, so Phil Heath's left bicep weighs about 8.75kg.
That's all I've got so far. I've been searching the web trying to find the density of androgen receptors in skeletal muscle but haven't found anything yet.
Holy shit.... avogradro's constant. That takes me back about 35 years.
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I've been doing a little researching and it seems that doctors and scientist reckon that there's about 30 trillion cells in total in the human body. Red blood cells account for 86% of them, leaving only 4.2 trillion other kinds of cell.
If there's a total of 4.2 trillion other kinds of cell, then maybe only about 10% of them are androgen receptors. So that's about 400 million androgen receptors in total.
It looks like you can easily clog all those receptors with a single injection of 400mg Test E and 400mg DecaDurabolin.
...but if it's that easy to clog all your receptors then that doesn't explain why taking 750mg of Testosterone per week is more effective for building muscle than taking 200mg per week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Lover
Your thought experiment on amount of androgen receptors aside,
you've totally forgot one important thing.
Even if the amount of androgen receptors in the human body was,
say, 10 receptors total. (And remember that in reality one muscle cell or hair cell in the skin will have multiple androgen receptors)
But let's go with just 10 total, OK?
Then you need to know the affinity the ligand has for its receptor,
let's say that's 10000 for test. Meaning; you need 10000 molecules of test for 1 T molecule to attach to 1 AR.
Then you could try to say that you'll need 10000x10 test molecules to bind the ARs in the body. But wait, for how long thos this bonding happen?
And then something strange happens;
The body start producing more ARs in response to the bonding of T to ARs in high amounts, thus meaning you know got 20...
Ok, I'll stop there, but in just beginning to scratch the surface of why you can't explain the amount of molecules of T you need to bind to the ARs, even if you knew the amount of ARs you got, something that varies between tissues and would just be an approximation at best, especially since that number can change.
Then you got the last point;
What does the androgen receptor do?
Being that T actually interacts with "androgen response elements" inside the nuclei of cells, acting to promote translation (protein synthesis),
the role of the AR in itself isn't the whole picture.
The AR is not a membrane receptor like the Alpha1-adrenergic receptors (bound by f.ex adrenaline), which then activate second messenger systems;
Instead it's actually more of a carrier protein to send messages to androgen response elements within the cell nucleus/to the DNA.
(This increasing mRNA synthesis)
And a lot of other factors also come in.
Nice little thought experiment, sorry to burst it and say it's even at a simplified level much more complex.
Can I ask how much caber you typically need on that dose of deca? Intrigued by the lower test, higher 19 nor. I had a similar experience with test/npp where I didn't feel the bang for the buck was at all what I would expect.Quote:
Originally Posted by PT1982
It's good to be back!Quote:
Originally Posted by charger69
To be totally honest, none. I've had bloodwork many many times while running deca or tren at that dose along side my trt and have never had anything to show I've needed caber or prami. I think that because the test dose is so low that my e2 is well balanced and that helps keep my prolactin in check. That's just my speculation on it anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrailRunAZ
Now I will say this..... it doesn't keep me from taking prami. Lol. I love the stuff. I use it for the sexual side effects only, and prami is WAY better in that regard than caber is (for me). I love prami! Haha.
I prefer to use test low in all of my blasts in order to keep from using ancillaries. I want to use the least amount of substances as possible, and when I keep the test on the low side, everything just falls in place. I do like my e2 to run a little high because I am a better person when it is. When my e2 is low, I can be emotionless and cold sometimes. Dont misunderstand me as saying that having high e2 is good, or that I want it high. It's not "high" in the sense that we usually would consider needing to use an AI. It's just a touch over the high range. Having high e2 is very dangerous and unhealthy (you know this trailrun. I'm adding this in for newbies) and should be monitored and kept under control. I've been on trt for so long that I have learned to manipulate, to a degree, my estrogen levels.
If youre contemplating running a higher 19nor with lower test and haven't tried it yet, I would highly recommend you to try it that way. With nandrolones I don't see much in terms of sides, regardless of how much or each compound I run. But with tren, it's night and day! A huge difference in side effects.
Hey Doc, where can I find more information on this? Great read... Even I understood!
What is your TRT dosage when cruising? How long is your blast?Quote:
Originally Posted by PT1982
150mgs weekly and I stay at that dose year round. Every once in a while I'll run it high, but only by itself. Anytime I run test high its test only, nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by charger69
As for blast durations, anywhere from 4 weeks to 8 weeks.
[QUOTE=PT1982;7317975]If I use deca on blast, I like 600mgs and 150mgs of test. That's my favorite way to do it. Let the more powerful compound be the workhorse of the cycle.[/QUOTE
You stated that you blast 4-8 weeks, how long do you blast deca for?
[QUOTE=charger69;7318194]I use NPP. I should have stated that. I don't know why nandrolone deconate became known as deca because it's not the ester we are after lol. Npp and deca are the same hormone, which I know you know, but I use the term interchangeably a lot of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by PT1982
I do occasionally use deca in low doses of around 100mgs a week while cruising. But if I we're to cycle deca, I would go 16 to 20 weeks. That's why I prefer short esters. Same results in half the time.
I just used general info from cell biology about receptor affinity and then some more info about the AR in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by charger69
(The Cell, 5th edition) + (Human Physiology, Silverthon, 6th edition)
I'm not sure if it's gonna be an easy read, but if you Google the androgen receptor you should find some links to protein databases (might be a bit heavy), or (haven't checked, but might be accurate) just use Wikipedia.
So when it comes to dose and stacking of compounds there's really nothing besides anecdotal experience from users to go on.
I don't even think there's any medical studies on this.
But keeping test low when using other compounds changes things dramatically in my experience, not only with 19nors.
F.ex. Anadrol is almost not the same drug when test is low, same with DBOL.
And like PT explained about tren, I think it's because of estrogen.
AIs seem to give much of the same effects,
but for some reason it doesn't work the same way altogether, not in me at least.
I've found that AAS that can have a lot of sides usually have a lot less sides with less test than with high.
The exception would be were these sides seem to be caused by some inherent toxicity of the compound;
Like halotestin has less sides (back ache, psychic, worn out) when used in lower doses with high test than higher doses, same with Winstrol tabs (back ache),
again I'm using myself as an example, I know some don't get this reaction from winny tabs. But if I go over 20mg Winstrol tabs a day I eventually feel bad within 7-10 days. And while I probably can tolerate 50mg winny per day better with low test than high test, it's not a big difference, so that just mean I tolerate 50mg per day better if the total AAS intake is lower, which would be obvious.
Tren is much milder with low test, for me, I don't know why, but as PT said, I expect it's because of estrogen.
It might also be that T has some effects on its own;
Mineralcorticoid effect (water retention), and other,
that influence this. But I think a lot can be explained by aromatization.
I love the way nobody noticed that I confused milligrams with grams (i.e. I said 400mg Test E was one mole of Test, when really it was one thousanth of a mole). The numbers were so big though that it didn't make a difference.
All this receptor talk is really making me wanna do a cycle of Dbol(4weeks),Test(12weeks),Deca(8weeks),Tren(8week s),Winnie(4weeks),Clen(4weeks).
Now all I need is a fulltime job and money. And a blender. Boom.
You guys have all provided excellent information. I am getting ready for my next cycle and low test it will be.
This information adds a new dimension to all of this. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? LOL
Do you also use deca instead of NPP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Lover
Tried an EC stack instead of clen. You will never go back to clen if you do.
PT and Doc are both right on it.
When you take into account the competive nature of these compounds both with the androgen receptor and SHBG you can see why something like Tren which can bind to the AR about 10,000x stronger than Test can. Test will never knock Tren out of its binding spot. So running high dosages of Test with a Tren or Deca is basically a waste of Test after anything higher than TRT dosage let's say.
So if we ran 500mg of Test and 500mg if Deca or 400 of Tren. The Deca or Tren is where you are making your gains, and the higher T is what's giving you your sides. As it's just floating in the blood stream doing fuck all, just waiting to be converted to estrogen or making zits.
Great information. The bottom line for me is, what compounds/dosage works best in MY body. I've tried a lot of cycles that worked well for other but, for whatever reason, didn't workout well for me. However, what I learned was that using someone else's cycle/result as the baseline, I can fine tune the cycle to meet my body's need. Number are awesome, I work with lots and lots of numbers everyday, but experience is best. My .02
Its not that we didn't notice, we just didn't read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Lover