Low free Testosterone after PCT

[hammerheart]

I tested it about last 2 weeks before the end of cycle, when i was under Tren ( 100mg EOD ). It was on 7,2 ( 3 - 17 ng/mL ). After i got PCT and finished it. Now it's passed about 4 months.

It could happen for prolactin to highen during PCT or even later but you had quite contained levels to start with.

BTW tren alone can be the reason of pct failure here I guess we all know that.

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[Slacker78]

Actually, the pituitary responded to negative feedback sent when i used HCG .... my tests responded to HCG well.... i wonder why it does not respond to positive feedback, as something inhibits LH output, which it could be higher ( i think ) given the testosterone low value and the related low E2.

[Slacker78]

It could happen for prolactin to highen during PCT or even later but you had quite contained levels to start with.

BTW tren alone can be the reason of pct failure here I guess we all know that.

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Yes, Tren is often at the center of the issue. But the matter would related as a testicular issue ( primary ) or pituitary ( secondary ) ? What are the area where Tren affects more ?

[kelkel]

Still should check it again to rule this out like Biz said.. Hate to say it but you can't rule this out, you could be fighting a losing battle here. It may simply be andropause or ASIH.

[Slacker78]

Still should check it again to rule this out like Biz said.. Hate to say it but you can't rule this out, you could be fighting a losing battle here. It may simply be andropause or ASIH.

ASIH stay for ? anabolic steroid associated hypogonadism, isn't ?

[kelkel]

Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism

[Slacker78]

Today i have a strong libido and erection. This is a good sign of test production, cause it was very strong. Clomid is doing its job i think. But it could be meaningful if i was any drug off. I'm on 40's and i was thinking to go in TRT; now or after, the age is ideal and it will be happen in time, being i want keep a good physique profile. So, i'm thinking if it's the case to choice it right now, or wait for a few years still ( assuming my test level will rise up after Clomid therapy ).

[kelkel]

See how your endogenous T does after clomid then decide. That way if you go into TRT you do so with a clear conscience.

[Slacker78]

See how your endogenous T does after clomid then decide. That way if you go into TRT you do so with a clear conscience.

Yes Kel. I will check PRL this week and all the rest. I will update you asap.

[kelkel]

With your age, lifestyle and goals you will enjoy the benefits of TRT Slacker. But like I said, entering into it with a clear conscience is important imho.

[Slacker78]

Even if my theory is that hypotalamus estrogens receptors are up-regulated ( maybe due to low E2 level i kept during my last cycle ), and so when they detect a minimum of estrogens level, they modulate the signal to pituitary, keeping LH in a mid-range value. I reflect on this, because - even thought it wasn't an ultra-sensitive E2 test - my E2 was very very low ( 1.9 pg/ml ) and this should lead to a strong positive feedback to hypotalamus estrogens receptors, raising up LH to higher value; while LH was always ~4.4 even though a very low E2.

I don't know if this could be a pure speculation, but it's an hypothesis.

[Slacker78]

Update.

I did BW to measure my test level, after 1 month of Clomid 50mg/ED. I stopped Clomid about 1 week ago before BW.

Here are the result:

Prolactin: 3,5
Total Testosterone : 638 ng/dl
LH: ( coming soon, they hadn't the reagent ready yet )
E2: 1,25 pg/ml <----- very low

My total test seems to be good, but i don't understand why E2 is so low still. I remember when i did 2 weeks of HCG before starting Clomid, my Total Testosterone was 872 ng/dl and E2 ~30 pg/ml.

Maybe my body is calibrated to raise E2 at good level when Testosterone is at about that threshold.

For what i know, E2 should follow Test level.

If total test is 638, and i have stopped Clomid ( Clomid has a brief half-life ) a week ago, this is a sign that my Leydig cells are responding to endogenous LH stimulus. However, the amount of testosterone produced seems not to be enough to raise E2 level by aromatase present in the body as well as that one is present in Leydig cells.

My guess: to have a good E2 level, from my body ( considering variables as SHBG, albumin and aromatase enzyme ), my test level has to be higher of 638 ng/dl.

So, either LH output is still too low to provide an enough stimulus, or Leydig cells are not able still to product enough testosterone even though on that LH ( good/normal ) output.

Any thoughts ?

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Update.

I did BW to measure my test level, after 1 month of Clomid 50mg/ED. I stopped Clomid about 1 week ago before BW.

( Clomid has a brief half-life )

Any thoughts ?

Wrong.
Clomid has a half-life of 5-7 days...
How Long Does Clomid Stay In Your System?

You need to do bloodwork 6-8 weeks after stopping.

[Slacker78]

Wrong.
Clomid has a half-life of 5-7 days...
How Long Does Clomid Stay In Your System?

You need to do bloodwork 6-8 weeks after stopping.

Yes, i will do it again sure after that period. This means that even though under Clomid 50mg/ED, my total Test level raised yes, but not enough to raise E2 too during this month. When i did HCG as i told, everything raised up well ( test and E2 ), so my testicles respond still. I think the problem lies in hypothalamus estrogens receptors, which adjust to an high sensitivity, so when they detected even low estrogens level, they stopped to secrete GnRH. That low estrogens level i have, should give a strong signal to Hypothalamus to secrete GnRH to stimulate pituitary to release LH, but this does not happen as LH is pretty normal and Test is sometimes lower and sometimes higher, but always in the range.

[kelkel]

DD is correct on the half life question. It's why we don't recomment BW post cycle for about 6-8 weeks. You have to allow for the hyperstimulation to cease and for your body to find homeostasis.

Your test elevated on HCG as it bypasses the hypothalamus/pituitary and signals the testies directly. When it comes to your estrogen do you recall how your E2 was in the past? Normal levels or has it been on the low side?

[Slacker78]

DD is correct on the half life question. It's why we don't recomment BW post cycle for about 6-8 weeks. You have to allow for the hyperstimulation to cease and for your body to find homeostasis.

Your test elevated on HCG as it bypasses the hypothalamus/pituitary and signals the testies directly. When it comes to your estrogen do you recall how your E2 was in the past? Normal levels or has it been on the low side?

Yes, my normal E2 spot in past is around 20-27 pg/ml. Every time i did BW and found E2 so low ( under 10 pg/ml ), i always felt like a crap. And actually i feel a shit right now, a bit lethargic.

Weeks ago, when i was on HCG , my E2 was on 30 pg/ml and actually i felt very well as i wrote...

[Slacker78]

I'm tired to feel in this way; in gym the weights are always the same, without any gain... i wonder where i should have to act, either primary hypogonadism or secondary aspect.

[Slacker78]

With this so low E2 level, i would expect an higher LH output being the estrogens receptors in hypothalamus are those one which have the most control on its feedback...

[kelkel]

I understand how you feel all to well Slacker. Re your low E2 = higher LH output, that would be the obvious thought. But it's really an oversimplification of how it all works in the hypothalamus. It's not that unusual for one to be underperforming endogenously yet still be responsivive to stimuli (clomid) and the like. There are multiple neuro and cellular pathways for estrogen in the hypothalamus and maybe signalling is somehow off, or maybe we're over-thinking it.

[hammerheart]

What are SHBG and free T?

The clomid will also raise the former.

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[Slacker78]

What are SHBG and free T?

The clomid will also raise the former.

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I didn't check this time. However, weeks ago i tested SHBG and Albumin, while E2 was low too as now; SHBG was at ~42 and albumin ~4.0. The total test was < 400 ng/dl and the free test was low too. E2 that time, was 1.9 pg/ml and LH 4,4 ( 1.1 - 7.0 range ).

E2 raised up just when i used HCG for 2 weeks before starting Clomid; i had total test to 870 ng/dl and E2 at 30 pg/ml. And that is my ideal level i suppose, because i felt very good.

Removing HCG, while on Clomid 50mg/ED, i did 2 BW during this phase; only this time, after almost 1 month of Clomid administration, i found total test at 638 ng/dl but E2 is still low. Testicles responded to endogenous LH, stimulated by Clomid ( i passed from < 400 to > 600 as total Test ). The total test value seems to be good, prolactin is low-good.... only E2 seems to be hard to raise... and i think that free test availability is not enough to get a good free Test-E2 conversion.

[Slacker78]

I understand how you feel all to well Slacker. Re your low E2 = higher LH output, that would be the obvious thought. But it's really an oversimplification of how it all works in the hypothalamus. It's not that unusual for one to be underperforming endogenously yet still be responsivive to stimuli (clomid) and the like. There are multiple neuro and cellular pathways for estrogen in the hypothalamus and maybe signalling is somehow off, or maybe we're over-thinking it.

Yes, that's true. What should i do now ? I think to wait and do a BW after 4 weeks and in the meanwhile, do not take nothing ?

[kelkel]

You have to wait if you want accurate endogenous levels.

[Slacker78]

You have to wait if you want accurate endogenous levels.

Ok. I will let the system to recovery to itself. If after 4-6 weeks i won't see good results in BW, i think i will think to TRT.