Tren test cycle lookin good?

[jhalo]

so im about to start a cycle, tren mix (Tren Acetate, Tren Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate and Tren Enanthate) at 50mg EOD so either 150 or 200 a week for 8-9 weeks with Sustanon 300mg a week for 8-9 weeks. Got clomed and tamoxifen for post. Does it look good? Been reading a lot and just seems so many issues with gyno but they others are sayin its fine.

I did a cycle of halo and turanabol with nolva/clomed post like 2 years ago, and then i did anavar and turanabol with nolva/clomed post again ~6 months ago. Got some good results in my opinion, but i want to switch to non oral now (besides the post regimen). Had no issues with gyno or post cycle side effects with either cycle and i know its different mechanisms but I just would like additional info/feedback. Im 25, 190lbs, 5 8, ~18%bf.

So i guess in short, tren 150-200mg/week and test 300mg/week good with nolva/clomed post? Too high, too low, too long, too short, too many toos? Worry about gyno?

[Lordluke]

What about Hcg and and Ai ? Or caber for prolactin?
How about just doing a straight test cycle of 500mg a week and keeping it simple ? Don’t think you need to do tren yet Mate.

[kronik420]

what's your goal? used deca before?

[GearHeaded]

the reason you never had issues with gyno or estrogen on your last cycles is because none of the drugs you took were capable of converting to estrogen. so it wasn't an issue . Testosterone is totally different, it will aromatize up to 20% into estrogen .

if this is your first run with an Injectable AAS cycle then just go with Test only and learn how to monitor and control those sides before you go throwing a whole new can of worms in their with Tren and prolactin on top of estrogen and dht sides.


guarantee you that 500mg of week of only Test for a new user is much more powerful then any past Var or Tbol only oral cycles you ran.

[songdog]

I agree with the above there is no need for you to run tren there is so much for you too gain just running test.

[charger69]

I personally do not recommend cycling above 15% bf. AAS effects cholesteral, blood pressure, and estrogen. High BF increases the effects on these.
Most people usually underestimate their BF also.

[jhalo]

Im trying to cut up rather then increase size, I wanted to do just tren but I read a lot that said it should be with test and thats why im doing it that way. And i totally agree that this is much more powerful than any oral cycle that i ran

[songdog]

You asked a question if it looked good and it was answered bro no it wasn't.You don't need tren at this time to cut test is all you need.Everyone thinks they need the strongest compounds to cut when you don't! LESS IS BETTER FOR YOUR BODY BRO!

[charger69]

You do not even need test if you want to cut. All you need is a diet that is right on and some cardio.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kelkel]

Im trying to cut up rather then increase size

Then do not waste money on a cycle.

[GearHeaded]

You do not even need test if you want to cut. All you need is a diet that is right on and some cardio.

this is exactly why natural bodybuilders look like 140 pound aids patients on stage,, and enhanced bodybuilders are 260 pounds on stage (cutting is the most important time to run gear)

[kelkel]

But he's not competing. As much of a fan of AAS as I am it doesn't need to be in every aspect of this sport or fitness in general. It's become way to much of a crutch for guys today. They can't seem to accomplish anything without it.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

this is exactly why natural bodybuilders look like 140 pound aids patients on stage,, and enhanced bodybuilders are 260 pounds on stage (cutting is the most important time to run gear)

sure... steroids are needed to maintain size while cutting to 5%

but the OP is 25, 190lbs, 5 8, ~18%bf.

using steroids to get leaner is stupid IMHO unless you are competing.

He can get to 12% in 6 weeks naturally.

Why risk damaging your HPTA to do what you can do naturally?

Steroids are for doing what you CAN'T do naturally.

[GearHeaded]

guess my approach is more about how can something be done "Optimally" (not naturally, I have no interest personally in doing things 'naturally' if I can yield better results by doing them optimally).

can I get from 14% bf down to 10% naturally , absolutely , but why would I make things harder on myself and risk loosing hard earned muscle mass along the way, I'd rather 'optomize' things. and if throwing in a little Var and Clen is going to get me there more optimally and at a faster pace, then I'm surely going to go that route.

and wither I compete or not my personal physique goals can be enhanced and optimized with AAS . Not taking advantage of something, when done properly and safely, that can be very beneficial to reach your goals is just plain silly IMO .
Its like putting together a half ass crappy training program just for the sole purpose of making things harder on yourself and not doing things optimal.

[kelkel]

guess my approach is more about how can something be done "Optimally" (not naturally, I have no interest personally in doing things 'naturally' if I can yield better results by doing them optimally).

I totally understand what you're saying but with that sentence though you just described the younger generation who want everything now but don't want to put in the work for it. Lift a few months and run their first cycle. There just doesn't have to be a drug for everything. Whatever happened to hard work, time and discipline? These are the kids who burn out when they're 30 years old.

[GearHeaded]

I totally understand what you're saying but with that sentence though you just described the younger generation who want everything now but don't want to put in the work for it. Lift a few months and run their first cycle. There just doesn't have to be a drug for everything. Whatever happened to hard work, time and discipline? These are the kids who burn out when they're 30 years old.

this is true .
I guess I was more speaking for my 40 year old self then I was suggesting anything to the 25yo OP.

I feel I've paid my dues with decades of experience , and at this stage and older age feel I really need to do everything as optimally for me as I can. newbs and young guys can make plenty of newbie gains with half ass non optimal BS, but I'm on the downhill side of the spectrum and have to optimize as best I can to get even the smallest gains. it would not be optimal what-so-ever for a guy like myself to ever think about cutting without being on a cycle to preserve muscle . a young newb can get by with that , loose muscle and re-gain it fairly easily.

I've put in the hard work , so guess really don't feel ashamed to say I'll rely on drugs plenty now. If a drug is going to optimize the hard work I've put in and am putting in, then I'll take them. If whey Isolate gives me some small fraction of benefit post workout, then I'll take it , if Tren preserves muscle while cutting , hell yeah I'm taking that too (no point in selling my hard work short).

as for the younger generation though, you are right . they need to put in the hours and years of hard workout FIRST, then learn how to optimize that hard work with gear.

[kelkel]

I guess I was more speaking for my 40 year old self

40? You're just hitting puberty! Wait till you're old like my ass!

Glad you're here GH. Great asset to the forum.

[charger69]

guess my approach is more about how can something be done "Optimally" (not naturally, I have no interest personally in doing things 'naturally' if I can yield better results by doing them optimally).

can I get from 14% bf down to 10% naturally , absolutely , but why would I make things harder on myself and risk loosing hard earned muscle mass along the way, I'd rather 'optomize' things. and if throwing in a little Var and Clen is going to get me there more optimally and at a faster pace, then I'm surely going to go that route.

and wither I compete or not my personal physique goals can be enhanced and optimized with AAS . Not taking advantage of something, when done properly and safely, that can be very beneficial to reach your goals is just plain silly IMO .
Its like putting together a half ass crappy training program just for the sole purpose of making things harder on yourself and not doing things optimal.

As mentioned pre iously, he is not competing. I have competed natural and with AAS.
IMHO you cannot take AAS safely. You can lower the risk by following a regimented protocall (AI, HCG, etc). I say this because I used to think the same however my BP went abnormally high and I had to bring that in control. I never had a problem in the past. You need to constantly be monitoring yourself because things can easily get out of control.
I did understand what you were trying to say, but I did not want some of the newbies to think that it was safe and no monitoring is required.
I also do not believe that 5% is a safe level to be at. You are taxing your body and anyone at 10% bf will shine above most people for aesthetics.
Bodybuilders get down into the single digits for the show, but do not maintain this level.
I also would like to state that AAS does not get you cut, this is strictly diet and cardio. Yes, one can argue that some AAS may increase your body temp, but it is so minimal that I disregard their “cutting” effect. They basically maintain the muscle mass during a caloric deficit. Clen is not AAS and does accomplish its effects through raising your body temp.
I have found that an EC stack provides significantly better results than clen.
The difference in using gear is that you can lose it quicker (through diet and cardio) without losing too much muscle. Naturally, you would need to lose it much slower to limit the muscle loss’.
To follow the time Off / time on protocol you are limited to just a few cycles per year. To try and use gear to meet all of your objectives, you will either be cycling constantly or taking an extremely long time to meet your objectives whil e waiting for the next cycle.

[songdog]

40? You're just hitting puberty! Wait till you're old like my ass!

Glad you're here GH. Great asset to the forum.

Yeah 40 hell he is just a puppy

[GearHeaded]

charger thanks for your input .
I agree with a lot of what you said. I only disagree with you in regards to the importance of AAS during a cut . Throughout modern body building history, starting with Arnold and Zane and Fourigno , these guys would mainly cycle AAS when they were cutting and prepping for a show (they were more then often OFF of AAS and not using it in the offseason and bulking). The reason they were able to maintain a large muscular physique while being ripped was because of using AAS during show prep and cutting phases. This is still just as important today.

As mentioned earlier , an average natural PRO bodybuilder steps on stage at like 160 pounds (some much smaller), the average enhanced Pro bodybuilder that uses AAS to prep and cut for a show steps on stage at 260 pounds .
The reason for the 100 pound difference (setting aside genetics for a moment) is NOT because of the off season bulk (heck there are all natural guys who never seen a steroid in their life that weigh 300+ pounds) its because of the AAS use used for cutting and prepping for a show . The natural guys can bulk up to 230 pounds and be fat , but when they want to get to 6% body fat for a show they lose all their size and muscle. Whereas an enhanced guy can cut and maintain all that size and muscle. and thats whats most important . Thats why the golden era guys used AAS for show prep seasons only (their AAS use was moderate and used mainly for cutting seasons)

I'm not suggesting at all that AAS are fat burners in any way . What I'm saying is they are muscle builders and anti-catablics that allow for muscle and size to stay , while you use diet and training to cut. a natural guy simply can't do that, he looses it all in order to get to that 6% bf.

so I personally think that for those limited few cycles per year , the cutting phase is one of the most important times to use AAS . heck anyone can bulk without AAS , thats easy (again plenty of all natural 300 pound guys out there). whats difficult is getting to 6% body fat while maintaining huge amounts of muscle mass at the same time.
and again AAS use while cutting is the whole reason there is a 100 pound stage weight difference from a natty pro to an enhanced pro.

again, naturals have no problem bulking, enhanced guys have no problem bulking in the off season without using AAS . the real issue is cutting and getting to 6% bf and wither your going to keep that size and muscle or not (without using the AAS, the answer is no you will not keep it, period, impossible)

one more example is female physique/figure . a lot of these women only use AAS when cutting and prepping for a show as that is the most important time so that they do not lose their muscular shape while in a calorie deficit.

[GearHeaded]

if I had a client that was already decent size and he planned on doing only 3 AAS cycles per year and he was planning on competing (or at least dropping BF to achieve a ripped look) I would advice him to use those cycles for the cutting or show prep stages. as thats the most important (and has been that way since Arnolds day).

If on the other hand he was not very muscular and still lacking size , I would advise him to never compete nor cut and to focus all his efforts on growing (a mini cut here or there to re-set insulin sensitivity only) and to use those 3 AAS times for growth phases.

just my approach and thoughts, but personally think they are consistent with whats been done in bodybuilding at a high level for decades

[The Deadlifting Dog]

if I had a client that was already decent size and he planned on doing only 3 AAS cycles per year

when following time on + PCT = time off...
it is impossible to do 3 cycles per year

[GearHeaded]

when following time on + PCT = time off...
it is impossible to do 3 cycles per year

I'd never advise anyone that was serious about enhanced bodybuilding go that route . its fine for the 24year old 160 pounds newbs that drop by these forums and I understand why that advice is given, and I'd give the same to that type of person . but for anyone serious and committed then its best to go 'all in' and commit to either TRT for life, or blast and cruise with 8 week detoxes once a year.

I don't think any elite level enhanced bodybuilder ever went time on + PCT =time off, and built the physique that they have following that methodology (its far from optimal , and in some cases can be detrimental) . its a great way to go 2 steps backwards and one step forward , I prefer committed people take 2 steps forward though, and only 1 step backwards when needed.

just because that Pct philosophy is popular and parroted in 'public' forums does not mean its in anyway ideal for bodybuilding (and some people will even say its not even ideal for overall health).

but I realize a lot of guys visiting these forums are by no means 'bodybuilders' , and so 2 cycles per year with tons of PCT and down time might be best for those average gym goers


edit: of course to be honest, I've never done a single PCT in my life, so I'm probably a bit biased. yes I've detoxed and came off of gear, but never once did I use cancer drugs as my form of detox when I went off.

[charger69]

GH I agree with what you said and I still compete and will not even consider cutting without a cycle: I guess where the confusion is is in a non competitor trying to get down to 5-6% bf. IMO there is no need and it is not healthy. I do agree that getting down below 8% you do need a cutting cycle for the optimization.
OP is at 18% probably higher. Getting down to 10-12% and I am sure that he would be extremely happy.

[Obs]

The OP has stated he wants to cut rather than increase size. AAS IS NOT what he needs. This forum is here for the purpose of bodybuilding beyond natty limits. There are not steroidiial cutters out there that can finish him off rather than AAS. Op is looking for a shortcut. I can assure all that there is no shortcut to get to single digit bf%.

I am not trying to be rude or crude but I am being very honest.

[GearHeaded]

The OP has stated he wants to cut rather than increase size. AAS IS NOT what he needs. This forum is here for the purpose of bodybuilding beyond natty limits. There are not steroidiial cutters out there that can finish him off rather than AAS. Op is looking for a shortcut. I can assure all that there is no shortcut to get to single digit bf%.

I am not trying to be rude or crude but I am being very honest.

that in bold is absolutely true !! nothing but diet and training and hard work can can get to low stage ready BF%.

AAS only allows you to hold on to valuable muscle during the process (which is ideal and optimal for those that wish to be big and ripped at the same time)

now there are shortcuts to getting BIG , not lean . I've made those mistakes before and put on 30 pounds in 4 weeks . life was hell. but getting lean, there are no magical drugs that can do this for you (again AAS only helps you maintain muscle along the way, but does not magically make you lean)

some will say DNP is this magic ellixar , lol its not . all comes down to diet and training to get lean , and AAS use to maintain the muscle .

I'm not saying there are not 'tricks' and 'tips' to get lean quicker , but definetily no magic . sure I'll take 2iu of insulin with zero carbs before fasted cardio to drop my blood sugar and force me into lipolysis , but this is a momentary simple thing , its not a magic pill that allows me to get lean without being fasted or doing the cardio

[Obs]

that in bold is absolutely true !! nothing but diet and training and hard work can can get to low stage ready BF%.

AAS only allows you to hold on to valuable muscle during the process (which is ideal and optimal for those that wish to be big and ripped at the same time)

now there are shortcuts to getting BIG , not lean . I've made those mistakes before and put on 30 pounds in 4 weeks . life was hell. but getting lean, there are no magical drugs that can do this for you (again AAS only helps you maintain muscle along the way, but does not magically make you lean)

some will say DNP is this magic ellixar , lol its not . all comes down to diet and training to get lean , and AAS use to maintain the muscle .

I'm not saying there are not 'tricks' and 'tips' to get lean quicker , but definetily no magic . sure I'll take 2iu of insulin with zero carbs before fasted cardio to drop my blood sugar and force me into lipolysis , but this is a momentary simple thing , its not a magic pill that allows me to get lean without being fasted or doing the cardio

A guy that works for me keeps saying he wants to cut up but doesn't want to get big at all. He quit drinking soda and lost 30lbs in a few months. I agree with all you said, the OP does need to understand this.

The biggest cliche I see surrounding AAS is that it is an easy way out. We all know that by the time a person is ready for AAS, they will know there is no shortcut at all. I used to consider it a shortcut until I realized I only got where I was through absolute dedication and motivation. Our muscles will not get bigger unless we tear them down and eat right. Our fat will not disappear without great diet and training.

A person shouldn't use something such as T3 without AAS because of the muscle wasting but if a guy is just trying to lose fat he can do it natty without ever entering the darkside. Historically I see many guys asking about clen as miracle weightloss drug. They don't seem to understand that clen and t3 are basically useless until we get sub 12% through diet and training.

We all for the most part share a mindset of hard work because we have the same mental illness that made us choose this sport as a lifestyle and we have been consumed by it. I think about every sip of anything I drink and every bite I eat. I focus my thoughts down to individual muscles every rep. I consider my future and progress every time i stick an inch and a half of steel in myself. We all do this.

I don't mean to ramble on but Kelkel's thoughts on this generation and the youth of today ring true. People who want an easy way out need to settle for average because that is what they are.

[GearHeaded]

A guy that works for me keeps saying he wants to cut up but doesn't want to get big at all. He quit drinking soda and lost 30lbs in a few months. I agree with all you said, the OP does need to understand this.

The biggest cliche I see surrounding AAS is that it is an easy way out. We all know that by the time a person is ready for AAS, they will know there is no shortcut at all. I used to consider it a shortcut until I realized I only got where I was through absolute dedication and motivation. Our muscles will not get bigger unless we tear them down and eat right. Our fat will not disappear without great diet and training.

A person shouldn't use something such as T3 without AAS because of the muscle wasting but if a guy is just trying to lose fat he can do it natty without ever entering the darkside. Historically I see many guys asking about clen as miracle weightloss drug. They don't seem to understand that clen and t3 are basically useless until we get sub 12% through diet and training.

We all for the most part share a mindset of hard work because we have the same mental illness that made us choose this sport as a lifestyle and we have been consumed by it. I think about every sip of anything I drink and every bite I eat. I focus my thoughts down to individual muscles every rep. I consider my future and progress every time i stick an inch and a half of steel in myself. We all do this.

I don't mean to ramble on but Kelkel's thoughts on this generation and the youth of today ring true. People who want an easy way out need to settle for average because that is what they are.

this is all absolutely true. I will only add to this that running AAS and gear is not a shortcut, it actually adds to the hard work involved . when you are on gear there is more to watch out for, more to dial it, more to do , more to monitor , blood work, health factors, diet considerations etc et. .. going to the dark side is for HARD WORKERS to begin with .

if your not a hard dedicated bad ass worker to begin with , the dark side isn't for you . thats why steroids are demonized by modern society , they think its a short cut and its not , its a dedication to hard work and a lifestyle . all you lazy bitches can get the fuck out the dark side and leave the gear alone and stop giving it a bad name.

someone that truly understand and uses gear wisely is a hard worker and using that gear is even more work Imo

[kelkel]

someone that truly understand and uses gear wisely is a hard worker and using that gear is even more work Imo

True. If they were the miracle the general public and media think that they are then everyone would look like Arnold.