Opinions on this study on AAS

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 05:43 AM

Hello guys, i've found this recent study on AAS use/abuse and its impact on heart and cardiovascular profile.

Cardiovascular Toxicity of Illicit Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid UseClinical Perspective | Circulation

It seems very accurated.

**hammerheart** · 11-23-2017, 08:58 AM

Sounds rather backward no mention of underlying etiology nor of the deleterious effect of E2 buildup from AAS, it's made on older guys whom probably cycled with poor knowledge about estrogen and AI.

**Eduke93** · 11-23-2017, 09:00 AM

We all know steroids cause many indirect problems, long term use will decrease the length of you life. Period.

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Eduke93

We all know steroids cause many indirect problems, long term use will decrease the length of you life. Period.

It's not properly so. There are infinite ways to use them.... knowledge and responsability against ignorance and irresponsibility. That's make a great difference in terms of long-life health.

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Sounds rather backward no mention of underlying etiology nor of the deleterious effect of E2 buildup from AAS, it's made on older guys whom probably cycled with poor knowledge about estrogen and AI.

Bizzarro, it seems a recent study -- > "May 22, 2017"

**Eduke93** · 11-23-2017, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

It's not properly so. There are infinite ways to use them.... knowledge and responsability against ignorance and irresponsibility. That's make a great difference in terms of long-life health.

Absolutely, it will make a difference... but using gear against not using will have a negative impact on your health regardless. Using in a responsible way will just decrease the negative effects not remove them...

**hammerheart** · 11-23-2017, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

Bizzarro, it seems a recent study -- > "May 22, 2017"

It's recent indeed yet it sounds like any other rant about steroids no useful information really just statistical draws.

Sent from my GT-I9105P using Tapatalk

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Eduke93

Absolutely, it will make a difference... but using gear against not using will have a negative impact on your health regardless. Using in a responsible way will just decrease the negative effects not remove them...

The bet is to make every alterations reversible, without long-term consequences. Many studies should prove for how long time AAS users kept in control their lipid profile, liver, BP etc. One study told that 14 AAS users had atherosclerosis at young age; but they used AAS for ~12 years without any stop and their Cholesterol/HDL ratio was on 8,3 for years.... this could be just needed to explain why these users got atherosclerosis...

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

It's recent indeed yet it sounds like any other rant about steroids no useful information really just statistical draws.

Sent from my GT-I9105P using Tapatalk

Statistical draws yes, but why these statistical draws always showed AAS users of which health is heavily damaged ? It seems the researchers always choose a unresponsable sample of AAS users... could it be possible ?

**Eduke93** · 11-23-2017, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

The bet is to make every alterations reversible, without long-term consequences. Many studies should prove for how long time AAS users kept in control their lipid profile, liver, BP etc. One study told that 14 AAS users had atherosclerosis at young age; but they used AAS for ~12 years without any stop and their Cholesterol/HDL ratio was on 8,3 for years.... this could be just needed to explain why these users got atherosclerosis...

To consistently manage your lipids and have a perfect balance whilst using steroids over a long period of time.. lets say 10 years. You are going to struggle to manage these profiles... There will consistently be ups and downs.

It's great to run study's to identify possible issues, but there is no escaping the fact that steroids are detrimental to your health and WILL effect all profiles.

How detrimental determines how responsible you are, it's just a case of whether you are giving yourself enough rope to hang yourself with.

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Eduke93

To consistently manage your lipids and have a perfect balance whilst using steroids over a long period of time.. lets say 10 years. You are going to struggle to manage these profiles... There will consistently be ups and downs.

It's great to run study's to identify possible issues, but theirs no escaping the fact that steroids are detrimental to your health and WILL effect all profiles.

How detrimental determines how responsible you are, it's just a case of whether you are giving yourself enough rope to hang yourself with.

I've read AAS cycles and administrations, which are over the limit than an human body could bear. Nothing could be comparable about what we do here. I think, those are the cases where AAS users, finally destroy their health and sometimes die, mixed with those ones who use AAS without an enough knowledge about what they really doing.

**Eduke93** · 11-23-2017, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

I've read AAS cycles and administrations, which are over the limit than an human body could bear. Nothing could be comparable about what we do here. I think, those are the cases where AAS users, finally destroy their health and sometimes die, mixed with those ones who use AAS without an enough knowledge about what they really doing.

I am not fully understanding your point here?

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Eduke93

I am not fully understanding your point here?

Point is that i think there's a threshold for each of us. And many AAS users, often overcome that threshold and even though they know it ( they see their blood work data and ignore it ), they continue to trespass over and over. That's the point where you cannot make return to your health.

**Eduke93** · 11-23-2017, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

Hello guys, i've found this recent study on AAS use/abuse and its impact on heart and cardiovascular profile.

Cardiovascular Toxicity of Illicit Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid UseClinical Perspective | Circulation

It seems very accurated.

To answer your original question.

This is an inaccurate study.

Each individual would need to have the same baseline lipid levels, they would have needed to use the same amount of gear, same compounds, same diet as we all know a shit diet is one of the main contributors to shot lipid profiles..

With that being said, we all know that steroids have an adverse affects on your heart. Your hearts a muscle, steroids increase the growth of muscle.. (Simply put)... An enlarged heart is an issue, plus the effects steroids have on your panels even when used "safely" combined with a healthy diet.

Long term effects are inescapable regardless of how the steroids are used...

This study is pretty much just stating the obvious... I am just pointing out that even though what they are saying is true, their approach wouldn't have been accurate.

**Eduke93** · 11-23-2017, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

Point is that i think there's a threshold for each of us. And many AAS users, often overcome that threshold and even though they know it ( they see their blood work data and ignore it ), they continue to trespass over and over. That's the point where you cannot make return to your health.

Sorry i miss understood...

I completely agree with your point here.

**hammerheart** · 11-23-2017, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

Statistical draws yes, but why these statistical draws always showed AAS users of which health is heavily damaged ? It seems the researchers always choose a unresponsable sample of AAS users... could it be possible ?

But the study is conducted on aged man whom probably started using AAS back in the 80-90s and knowledge about safe use was nowhere it is today, and yes, responsible AAS users are probably greatly outnumbered by abusers.

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Eduke93

To answer your original question.

This is an inaccurate study.

Each individual would need to have the same baseline lipid levels, they would have needed to use the same amount of gear, same compounds, same diet as we all know a shit diet is one of the main contributors to shot lipid profiles..

With that being said, we all know that steroids have an adverse affects on your heart. Your hearts a muscle, steroids increase the growth of muscle.. (Simply put)... An enlarged heart is an issue, plus the effects steroids have on your panels even when used "safely" combined with a healthy diet.

Long term effects are inescapable regardless of how the steroids are used...

This study is pretty much just stating the obvious... I am just pointing out that even though what they are saying is true, their approach wouldn't have been accurate.

In brief, as you stated what is in bold: *ALL* AAS users/abusers should have some permanent AAS-induced issue, regardless their conscientious use, am i right ? The question now is: is really so ? Could we state that all long-term AAS users, today report some permanent AAS-induced issue ?

With "issue" i refer to some an unhealthy permanent condition ( AAS-induced ), which limit a good life going.

**Eduke93** · 11-23-2017, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

In brief, as you stated what is in bold: *ALL* AAS users/abusers should have some permanent AAS-induced issue, am i right ? The question now is: is really so ? Could we state that all long-term AAS users, today report some permanent AAS-induced issue ?

With "issue" i refer to some an unhealthy permanent condition ( AAS-induced ), which limit a good life going.

Correct, and i did define long term to be around 10 year mark.

Having an increase of coronary atherosclerosis due to steroid use wont directly impact your life straight away... so no it will not limit a good life but it will decrease the length of your life and could decrease the quality of your last years.. that is dependant on if you stop using and focus on repairing the damage. Coronary atherosclerosis is reversible but not all the time... depends on the level in which the walls have thickened.

This is one of many problems...

To conclude, long term steroid use will have an adverse effect on your health. If you abuse you are likely to experience worse side effects in comparison to those who use steroids long term with a "safer" approach.

Dependant on genetics, diet and compounds used. Some will be more prone to problems in comparison to others.

and... FYI i am not against steroid use. As long as you understand the consequences and are willing to accept the possibilities then its your own choice.

Personally i have been using for the past 4 years on and off and have decided to discontinue my use. Health comes first.

**Quester** · 11-23-2017, 11:36 AM

One of the patients in the nursing home where I'm doing clinicals has hypogonadalism, hyperlipidemia and just suffered an ischemic stroke. Just one guy but there's probably a connection. He is a writer of computer programming books and doesn't get much exercise. Exercise, specifically cardio, is of great benefit but the increase in heart rate that lifting brings is also beneficial.

**David LoPanno** · 11-23-2017, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Quester

One of the patients in the nursing home where I'm doing clinicals has hypogonadalism, hyperlipidemia and just suffered an ischemic stroke. Just one guy but there's probably a connection. He is a writer of computer programming books and doesn't get much exercise. Exercise, specifically cardio, is of great benefit but the increase in heart rate that lifting brings is also beneficial.

How old is this guy?

**Obs** · 11-23-2017, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

Statistical draws yes, but why these statistical draws always showed AAS users of which health is heavily damaged ? It seems the researchers always choose a unresponsable sample of AAS users... could it be possible ?

I would say only about 1 in 100 AAS users actually do things right. I a3m not the 1 in 100. I am one of the other 99.

Not that I don't know how to do it right.

**Obs** · 11-23-2017, 02:21 PM

Also, who is to say what will cause my issues in the future? Is it gear that willcause me issues or the ephedrine and expectorants coupled with stress and poor hydration? Is it the gear that is messing with my liver or the many times I knocked myself out with vodka? Is it the gear affecting my kidneys or the dehydration and excessive protein? I Ate fast food nearly every day for 15 years... When my heart blows up or I stroke out, I doubt gear will be to blame.

Statistically I would say BB's are some of the hardest playing and partying guys on earth. Hard to point a finger at gear.

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 03:09 PM

Obspowerstroke, perfectly agree with every thing you've told

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 03:15 PM

Another aspect i was wondering. The AAS users sample analyzed in this type of studies, never did a long and full stop among their cycles, during the years ? We all know that a full stop and long off-cycle period, is an imperative best practice to keep a long-life good health. And this could have a logic in terms to give the body the time and ability to repair the "silent" damages AAS administration might have caused and in absence of this, all the troubles we read in these studies, could have a clear explanation.

**TestoSuper** · 11-23-2017, 03:42 PM

Hey Guys,
Do you have any idea how long (years) do you have to keep your lipid values out of range to create an artery occlusion? years, several years ... do not joke!
with moderate and conscious use (dosages, type of substances, on and off cycling, clean diet, lifestyle under control, etc.), damage does not happen to almost anyone.
With the use of exaggerated doses (abuse), particularly toxic substances, long uninterrupted periods (without on-off cycling), ignoring and not controlling blood tests etc. someone, especially those who are more prepared, (and not all) could have any damage. that's all.
And also, don't forget that the greatest number of deaths among professionals bb are not from testosterone derivatives or AAS, but from diuretics and insulin .
I would not change my life with those who drink alcohol, those who smoke, those who do not have physical activity, those who eat shit ... because this person will certainly have a quality and lenght of life much lower than mine.

**hammerheart** · 11-23-2017, 03:47 PM

Difficult to provide an answer lipids are only risk factors you can well develop atherosclerosis with pristine bloodwork.

Sent from my GT-I9105P using Tapatalk

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by TestoSuper

Hey Guys,
Do you have any idea how long (years) do you have to keep your lipid values out of range to create an artery occlusion? years, several years ... do not joke!
with moderate and conscious use (dosages, type of substances, on and off cycling, clean diet, lifestyle under control, etc.), damage does not happen to almost anyone.
With the use of exaggerated doses (abuse), particularly toxic substances, long uninterrupted periods (without on-off cycling), ignoring and not controlling blood tests etc. someone, especially those who are more prepared, (and not all) could have any damage. that's all.
And also, don't forget that the greatest number of deaths among professionals bb are not from testosterone derivatives or AAS, but from diuretics and insulin .
I would not change my life with those who drink alcohol, those who smoke, those who do not have physical activity, those who eat shit ... because this person will certainly have a quality and lenght of life much lower than mine.

Yes TestoSuper. That's what i supposed. Would be interesting to know each AAS user got in the sample of these studies, if he followed all the health best/safe practices we know, in the long terms... it could be enough to stay with a bad Cholesterol/HDL ratio continuously for years, to develop an early atherosclerosis.

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

Difficult to provide an answer lipids are only risk factors you can well develop atherosclerosis with pristine bloodwork.

Sent from my GT-I9105P using Tapatalk

Eh... even high BP could be a risk factor, mixed with the others...

**hammerheart** · 11-23-2017, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

Eh... even high BP could be a risk factor, mixed with the others...

I had stage 2 hypertension and an LDL of 160 with low T, hypogonadism also is a tremendous and often overlooked risk factor yet AAS abuse gets all the blame and attention....

Sent from my GT-I9105P using Tapatalk

**TestoSuper** · 11-23-2017, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

Yes TestoSuper. That's what i supposed. Would be interesting to know each AAS user got in the sample of these studies, if he followed all the health best/safe practices we know, in the long terms... it could be enough to stay with a bad Cholesterol/HDL ratio continuously for years, to develop an early atherosclerosis.

Hello Slacker .... how long didn't you see it

!
Exactly ... I think these studies are a bit uncertain because they don't specify if the people took precautions during the experiment or not. And it isn't a small difference!

**Slacker78** · 11-23-2017, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by TestoSuper

Hello Slacker .... how long didn't you see it

!
Exactly ... I think these studies are a bit uncertain because they don't specify if the people took precautions during the experiment or not. And it isn't a small difference!

Hello my friend

i remember when you were with low Testosterone after a massive Deca cycle

i hope all it's ok. Now it's my turn... Tren put me on KO

**TestoSuper** · 11-23-2017, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Slacker78

Hello my friend

i remember when you were with low Testosterone after a massive Deca cycle

i hope all it's ok. Now it's my turn... Tren put me on KO

yes thanks ..I had high prolactin post cycle, i had solved with many weeks on cabaser .. this time i'm using it now during cycle!
Really?... I'm thinking to use it next summer ...for first time !!

**hammerheart** · 11-23-2017, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by TestoSuper

yes thanks ..I had high prolactin post cycle, i had solved with many weeks on cabaser .. this time i'm using it now during cycle!
Really?... I'm thinking to use it next summer ...for first time !!

I went four months on caber, once off prolactin climbed back where it was before and even got gyno from it. It seems I'll need caber indefinitely.

Sent from my GT-I9105P using Tapatalk

**Nogbad the bad** · 11-23-2017, 06:04 PM

The biggest risks often go hand in hand with the biggest rewards.Studies have no effect whatsoever on my life.When it's my time,hopefully i've
got my boots on.Who wants to be on a dementia ward,or pissing in their pyjamas.Fuck that,i did it my way.

**MuscleScience** · 11-23-2017, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Eduke93

We all know steroids cause many indirect problems, long term use will decrease the length of you life. Period.

Except the research says otherwise...

**MuscleScience** · 11-23-2017, 09:00 PM

Lipid profiles are a dated way to determine cardiovascular risk, especially cholesterol. It’s pretty much been debunked that moderately high cholesterol causes heart disease.

On the contrary, hypogonadism has been shown to be a MAJOR risk factor for cardiovascular disease and it very apparent in the scientific literature. With AAS usage there is only a weak scientific link to CVD. So if it’s very apparent in low T situation and very hard to find in AAS users vs normal populations. Then which is the bigger risk factor?

**Slacker78** · 11-24-2017, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Lipid profiles are a dated way to determine cardiovascular risk, especially cholesterol. It’s pretty much been debunked that moderately high cholesterol causes heart disease.

On the contrary, hypogonadism has been shown to be a MAJOR risk factor for cardiovascular disease and it very apparent in the scientific literature. With AAS usage there is only a weak scientific link to CVD. So if it’s very apparent in low T situation and very hard to find in AAS users vs normal populations. Then which is the bigger risk factor?

Yes, but these kind of studies show results which are unfavorable to AAS users respect to non-users. Related to CVD, the 2 samples comparing, always show CVD issues in AAS users respect to non-users. The only 2 explanations to this evidence, is that either AAS users sample almost always is composed by a great number of unresponsable users, or long-term ( ~10 years ) AAS use - regardless of its wise and responsable administration - lead unavoidably to CVD and other heavy issues to health.

**TestoSuper** · 11-24-2017, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by bizzarro

I went four months on caber, once off prolactin climbed back where it was before and even got gyno from it. It seems I'll need caber indefinitely.

Sent from my GT-I9105P using Tapatalk

it did not happen to me this ... fortunately once the values returned within the normal range everything came back ok (my only problem was the total testosterone levels remained low with high prolactin) but no minimum signal of gyno.

**< <Samson> >** · 11-24-2017, 06:19 AM

Point is - STFU

We are shortening our life span for vanity - ok, not 100% - but, only 98.9% of the time

If you think this isn't the truth - there's no point of going on further in this conversation

**Slacker78** · 11-24-2017, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by < <Samson> >

Point is - STFU

We are shortening our life span for vanity - ok, not 100% - but, only 98.9% of the time

If you think this isn't the truth - there's no point of going on further in this conversation

Tell this to all BB's who are alive and in perfect health over 50, after a decade of AAS ( responsable ) use.