Could really use some help here from the pros...I messed up!!

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 07:47 PM

Hey guys, I really need some advice here. I got into Test E from a BB friend who slowly talked me into it and made himself to seem very knowledgeable on it. Long story short: he wasnt. The problem is, it took me way too long to find this out. I was very naive and foolish to listen to him but hes a pro trainer, so I trusted him. This misinformation led me to start my first cycle of Test E in March of 2017. 12 weeks. He then had me cruise for 10 weeks, then blast for roughly 12 more, then cruise again, or as he called it, taper off. During this time, I felt great...had no worries. Good gains. Best shape of my life. During the second cycle, about mid cycle he recommended bumping from 500/wk to 600. It was beast mode and it also brought some nasty acne. Only now did I start to really read up on this because I was getting all my info from him. He sold me letro in case of gyno and told me PCT was a wives tale and I didnt need it. Once I started hounding him for PCT he pretty much shut down. I was able to get some adex and have been doing .25 EOD and have felt better, even though I have no bloods yet. So heres where I REALLY need the help. Im 39, last pin of cruise was 2 days ago. At this point, I have no PCT in hand but Im ready to pull the trigger on it once I have a protocol for what I should do. All I can get, that I can afford, is clomid, nolva and aromasin . Not sure I have time to get bloods before? Info on this is very broad per forum and its hard to really get a good idea of where i should go. Im kinda scared to be honest. Any help would be immensely appreciated!!!

**numbere** · 01-23-2018, 08:12 PM

How much test do you have left?

Can you source hcg ?

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 08:24 PM

last pin 2 days ago. As far as HCG , the only sources for that, that Ive seen are from like boards and its out of reach atm financially. Ive tried for help on a couple other forums but info was either very sporadic or just no one would answer me, which has led me down to the wire. Man, Im kicking myself in the ass after reading so many warnings and becoming at least, a little more educated on all of it.

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 08:32 PM

I guess Im pretty much the poster boy for who you warn everyone NOT to be. Not proud of that. Also, so many threads out there that have no closure!! Never find out if anything works because nobody follows up!! Well, I will for sure follow up as Im sure a lot might be interested to see if I can bounce back successfully.

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 08:37 PM

Also, I should add that during all of this, I used to AI's cuz it wasnt needed according to my trainer. Once acne and the hit to the libido started w/soft wood, I started using the Adex. This was about 6 weeks ago and it was on a guess that my estrogen was too high. Probably a good guess, but still a guess. Mood improved, acne...maybe a little...better as I continue the adex...libido/soft wood...hit and miss. Should I continue Adex for now?

**Clove1234** · 01-23-2018, 09:00 PM

You really kind of answered it yourself on that last post. Without bloods you are playing a guessing game entirely

**numbere** · 01-23-2018, 09:02 PM

The way I see it you have two options.

Stop talking test and begin PCT consisting of nolva and clomid at dosages similar to those below two weeks after your last pin.

Continue taking dex EOD until you start PCT.

The second option is to stay on a low dose of test for 4-6 weeks, 150-200 mg/week, while taking dex and hcg at 250IU twice a week.

Then stop taking test and begin PCT consisting of nolva and clomid at dosages similar to those below 10 days after your last pin.

Continue taking dex EOD until you start PCT and keep taking hcg until 2-3 days before PCT.

You should be able so source hcg from an over seas pharmacy such as reliable rx pharmacy or safe meds for all.

If I were in your position I'd follow the second suggestion.

Clomid 75/50/50/50
Nolva 40/20/20/20/20/20

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 09:19 PM

Thank you for your replies!!!! I think my only option will be the first one since im out of test and will be kind of strapped for another month. I started a new job and it has been a transitional period there. What about aromasin ? Seems highly regarded on other boards. What is your opinion? Finally, obviously Im worried about my recovery. I will get bloods as soon as its feasible for me, I just dont know if i can do it before Im suppose to start PCT. Do you think I will be able to recover after a 10 month stint on Test E with a clomid/nolva/aromosin PCT?

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 09:20 PM

As soon as I get bloods, or when you recommend getting them, I will post here. Not sure if its wise to hold off on PCT to do that?

**charger69** · 01-23-2018, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Kjack78

As soon as I get bloods, or when you recommend getting them, I will post here. Not sure if its wise to hold off on PCT to do that?

Bloods should be after PCT to see where you stand. Let’s say 6 weeks after the start of PCt. Hopefully, you recover but without knowing your before it is just comparing to the general population and not where you were.

**charger69** · 01-23-2018, 09:36 PM

Ok, first I am going to make some pointers.
Rule #1- Never take advice from the dealer. I am assuming that he was the supplier.
Rule#2- It doesn’t matter what anyone says- investigate before taking anything. I was given Halo and told it was the same as proviron . I opened it up and remembered the rule. I read about it and decided there was no way I was going to take it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 09:44 PM

That is sound advice. He was my dealer and trainer. I trusted his so called knowledge too much. I was a fool. I can do bloods after PCT for sure. Just looking for my best option with what I have and hope for the best. Id love to try another cycle, the right way as I loved my feeling of well being when it was going well. I hope this coming off after 10 months doesnt do me in. (insert nervous laugh here).

**GearHeaded** · 01-23-2018, 10:04 PM

I'm going to give your "Pro Trainer" dealer buddy a little slack here (benefit of the doubt I guess). maybe he's actually worked with high level 280 pound bodybuilders and is in the "old school" way of doing things and is not up to date on the "new school" way of doing things like you find advocated on forums by 160 pound guys

if he is dealing you stuff, he could of made a LOT more money selling you 'possibly' un-needed PCT drugs if he wanted (he probably would have more mark up on the PCT drugs then the actual AAS) . the reason he did not sell you that is because PLENTY of guys over the years run cycles and they do NOT do a PCT, they skip the cancer drugs and decide to recover all natural and most the time it works out just fine.

the PCT is a "choice", its not mandatory . will it speed up the recovery process, sure. will you recover without them, more then likely.

the whole reason PCT is popular on the inter webs and forums is because most guys do a 12 week cycle, and then get off and want to get back on a cycle ASAP , well the quickest way to get recovered and get back on is to run a pct . thats why its more popular now then it was years ago.
there are high level bodybuilding coaches that recommend if a guy is only going to do 1-2 cycles per year, that he skip the pct and do a natural recovery.

maybe your dealer comes from that school of thought.

Should you of had an AI like aromasin or Adex on hand.. yes. but your dealer did give you Letro. which I've used off and on for years, and works wonders for lowering estrogen when it gets out of hand.

Again, your dealer would of made a shit ton more $ had he sold you a bunch of Arimidex and told you to pop a bunch of them every week. but he didn't ,, he gave you Letro only to use just in case.
you were only on 500mg of Test . an AI is not mandatory , having just Letro on hand is fine (having Adex too would be good).

should you of done your research , yes. should you have gotten mid cycle blood work yes.

I'm just playing "devils advocate" here . your dealer wasn't really all that off line . don't blame him. he may have more experience then anyone on these forums , he just doesn't come from the "forum" school of thought and takes different approaches based on being in the trenches with real body builders in real life
again, I'm just saying

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 10:17 PM

well, you're not incorrect. He has told me that he and his circle are "old school". He is also a good friend, so while im disappointed that he didnt really fill me in on the details, I dont hate the guy. The way he put it was basically, blast and cruise and blast and then taper off and go through your super depressive month and youll be fine. Then I find out so much more and really, it scared the shit out of me. So it sounds like get the clomid/nolva...(aromasin too?) and do a normal pct protocol...like the one shown above. Get bloods two weeks after cessation of PCT and go from there? I do want to have a speedy recovery if possible and KNOW that I can get my balls working again!! I dont know much about all this still as Im climbing out from his shadow after so long but I feel like I should definitely do PCT. This sound about right for my next steps then? And thank you guys so much!!! Most feedback Ive had on any forum! Means a lot. Felt like I was dead in the water.

**GearHeaded** · 01-23-2018, 10:28 PM

some guys like to do an AI and HCG for a few weeks going into PCT, then dropping that and going with the Nolva and Clomid PCT for 4 weeks..

do NOT do bloods 2 weeks after pct as the pct drugs still in your system will alter the blood work results and give you false readings.. wait 6 weeks after pct to get a much more natural clear picture

**GearHeaded** · 01-23-2018, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Kjack78

well, you're not incorrect. He has told me that he and his circle are "old school". He is also a good friend, so while im disappointed that he didnt really fill me in on the details, I dont hate the guy. The way he put it was basically, blast and cruise and blast and then taper off and go through your super depressive month and youll be fine. Then I find out so much more and really, it scared the shit out of me.

yeah don't take it personally . he probably had your best interest in mind and wasn't trying to screw you over .. he was just focused on helping you get 'epic gains' brother

. he just happens to come from a different school of thought .

with dozens and dozens of cycles under my belt and tons more under the belts of my clients, I can tell you there are lots of different ways to skin a cat. no one school of thought is the "only way" . I've done them all or at least seen most of them done

**Kjack78** · 01-23-2018, 10:36 PM

Ok. I wont be able to do the HCG unfortunately, but on top of the clomid/nolva i should be able to get aromasin , which seems highly suggested from most of what Ive read. 12.5mg EoD iirc. That work?

**GearHeaded** · 01-23-2018, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kjack78

Ok. I wont be able to do the HCG unfortunately, but on top of the clomid/nolva i should be able to get aromasin, which seems highly suggested from most of what Ive read. 12.5mg EoD iirc. That work?

if you were running a long ester form of test, then yes . the drug is still in your system and will be aromatizing for a couple weeks more. the AI will shut down this aromatizion and lower your estrogen .
your body will not want to turn on natural production of test from your testes in the presence of high estrogen. so you can take that for 2 weeks.

if you don't have aromasin , and you still have the Letro your guy got you . you can "very carefully" use that instead and that will kill estrogen even quicker.

**Kjack78** · 01-24-2018, 04:55 AM

Well, that is certainly better news than I was expecting!! I was/am getting pretty nervous as most people paint a pretty grim picture for those who havent properly planned or even planned on using PCT. I will keep this thread updated to the end.

**Kjack78** · 03-02-2018, 04:45 PM

Finally, FINALLY got nearly all of what I need! Waiting on HCG that should be here this coming week.

**Dannyboy51577** · 03-02-2018, 07:20 PM

And if all works out ok K, u learned one of the most valuable lessons- just like charger said in post 11- you absolutely have to look into this stuff no matter who it is giving you info. There is a ton of info on these things, and even on forums or internet, you havr to read a ton of info to get mulyiple view points and figure out what makes sense and what doesnt. These guys here give great advice.

**Kjack78** · 03-03-2018, 10:20 PM

I agree and I appreciate all the suggestions and info. I do have one more question, if anyone could help. With continuing test for 4-6 with HCG , as suggested in post #7, how would you dose aromasin ? I got some because it seemed to outweigh the effectiveness of Adex 10-1 but dosages are all over the place. 12.5mg EOD? Less?

**Dannyboy51577** · 03-04-2018, 07:44 AM

Are you planning on continuing at 500 or 600/wk?

**cousinmuscles** · 03-04-2018, 08:07 AM

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rdosed-ai.html

**Kjack78** · 03-15-2018, 07:23 PM

Quick Update:

Pinning 200mg Test E per wk. 250iu HCG every 3 days. Started off 12.5 stane Eod. Seemed like a good start. My balls ached like hell the day after first HCG injection but fine since. I read the above article and tried 25mg stane ED and not really feeling great on that dose. Really dry skin, creaky joints but necessarily painful like Ive had with Adex. Will be going back to 12.5 EoD until I get bloods done, which I will probably do soon. At least one before PCT. I think the HCG is working...well, pretty sure its doing something lol. Not sure what to expect at this point really so it's a day to day thing. At least my sac doesnt feel like a peach pit anymore and do seem to be getting more mass. Acne subsided greatly during the first week as well as libido (Increased), but regressed again when I upped the stane dosage. I tried cialis but found out after purchase that it will not help with wood if its caused by hormonal imbalance. Bummer. But, it increases blood flow to entire body, not just penis, so it has many other health benefits. Good. Gonna do this for about 4 more weeks before PCT, which will consist of Stane and Nolva. Fingers crossed.

**cousinmuscles** · 03-15-2018, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kjack78

Quick Update:

Pinning 200mg Test E per wk. 250iu HCG every 3 days. Started off 12.5 stane Eod. Seemed like a good start. My balls ached like hell the day after first HCG injection but fine since. I read the above article and tried 25mg stane ED and not really feeling great on that dose. Really dry skin, creaky joints but necessarily painful like Ive had with Adex. Will be going back to 12.5 EoD until I get bloods done, which I will probably do soon. At least one before PCT. I think the HCG is working...well, pretty sure its doing something lol. Not sure what to expect at this point really so it's a day to day thing. At least my sac doesnt feel like a peach pit anymore and do seem to be getting more mass. Acne subsided greatly during the first week as well as libido (Increased), but regressed again when I upped the stane dosage. I tried cialis but found out after purchase that it will not help with wood if its caused by hormonal imbalance. Bummer. But, it increases blood flow to entire body, not just penis, so it has many other health benefits. Good. Gonna do this for about 4 more weeks before PCT, which will consist of Stane and Nolva. Fingers crossed.

25mg exemestane is more for cycle dosages 500-600mg test not 200mg. I do fine with 12.5mg ED exemestane for 5-600mg test others need more. Regarding acne I am acne prone on my back and shoulders mostly but with frequent dosing of exemestane I got rid of it for the most part. Seems like the hormone fluctuations were what increased acne for me...

**Kjack78** · 05-18-2018, 07:11 PM

Wanted to give you guys an update, as its been quite a while. After my post and acquiring the necessities, I pinned Test E at 200/wk with 250 HCG 2/wk. First dose of HCG and my balls ached for a straight day. The same kind of ache as when they first got their taste of synth test. Seemed like a good sign but the "plumping up" effect of the HCG over the next couple weeks was not real significant. I did some research and upped my HCG dose to 400 twice a week and that worked really well for me so I finished out six weeks at those doses. HCG up until 10 days after last pin of test and at 14 days started 40mg Nolva and 12.5 Stane ED. Second week dropped nolva down to 20, Stane at 12.5 ED. Really glad I have the stane as I could really tell my estro levels were fucking blowing up. About week 4, I got pretty de motivated. Libido way down. Seems to be improving slowly and I just finished my 5th week of PCT. From what Ive gathered, my time on should necessitate about 6-8 weeks of PCT (correct me if im wrong please). My mood has been OK, I have been lifting a bit since my lethargic period so I hope thats going away and my sperm count, if you will, seems to be increasing. So far, Im feeling good about the steps Ive taken. Once Im done with PCT, ill report back with bloods to share and hopefully share news that Ive recovered in about 6 weeks. If not, then I suppose my only options are to self dose TRT, try more PCT, or see a DR. I dont think my DR would be awfully shocked to hear me ask for testing as Ive brought up some concerns a while back that turned out OK but one of his concerns was my test levels. IDK. WIll play that by ear when I cross that bridge but Im pretty confident I wont have to. Cheers all and thanks again for all your valuable input!!

**Dannyboy51577** · 05-20-2018, 02:58 PM

If your test levels were good prior to cycling, you should be ok. Alot of guys have done alot worse and turned out ok. You will be surprised how the body bounces back. Just learn from mistakes.

**Kjack78** · 05-20-2018, 04:40 PM

Glad to hear!! Ive learned from many mistakes made during this journey!

**Quester** · 05-20-2018, 06:58 PM

Thanks for sharing.

**Kjack78** · 11-04-2018, 07:37 PM

So, things have seemed to be going fairly well to date with one big exception. Still have some ED and lowered sex drive. I got bloods done last week under the guidance of a forum member as to what test to have done, etc. The test to me seems quite basic but it was also affordable. My total test is, at time of testing, 433. Im not sure what else, specifically is of interest, so any inquiries there would help. Then he told me about prolactin, which I wish I had known about at the time of testing, as the LabCorp nearest me is now closed for good. I did a small amount of research and found that Vit B6 can possibly help with that? Its probably preferred as injection but I got an oral vitamin for now in hopes. Been lifting again since june and that part feels good again. Acne has completely subsided and all that remains is the ED and loss of sex drive. Looking for any info possible. Also, Aside from that, I feel pretty good. Nearly everything from the blood test came back in the normal range and Id say Ive mostly recovered. Id kind of like to cycle again, with everything Ive learned this time. Can you give any advice on that? Like, when is good to start? Info on the ED thats persisting? Is it ok at this point to seek help from a DR or could I still be flagged as a gear user at one point?

**AlphaMindz** · 11-06-2018, 12:41 PM

My guess is that your estrogen is high. That's what's killing your sex drive and also suppressing test levels. Get that in check and I assure you you'll feel better. Also, using cialis is never a bad idea. I love that shit and not even cause I need it right now but it just keeps you nice and consistent and perform at your best every time!

**Kjack78** · 11-06-2018, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

My guess is that your estrogen is high. That's what's killing your sex drive and also suppressing test levels. Get that in check and I assure you you'll feel better. Also, using cialis is never a bad idea. I love that shit and not even cause I need it right now but it just keeps you nice and consistent and perform at your best every time!

Well, i do have some aromasin left. Should I use some? Should I see my doctor? Im not sure of anything right now. I have been trying cialis but its not great for the ED in my case. Seemingly, it does not work if your ED is due to hormonal imbalance. (according to cialis declarations). It does work nicely for pumps in the gym!!

**GearHeaded** · 11-06-2018, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kjack78

Well, i do have some aromasin left. Should I use some? !

didn't you say that your blood work just came back all in 'normal' range ?
your not taking any exogenous androgens right now that aromatize, so I don't see any reason for taking Aromasin and blocking the aromatase enzyme, especially for "ED". in fact erectile disfunction is one of many possible side effects of taking that drug.

I'm assuming estrogen levels are normal being you said that your blood work was all in normal range

**Kjack78** · 11-07-2018, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by GearHeaded

didn't you say that your blood work just came back all in 'normal' range ?
your not taking any exogenous androgens right now that aromatize, so I don't see any reason for taking Aromasin and blocking the aromatase enzyme, especially for "ED". in fact erectile disfunction is one of many possible side effects of taking that drug.

I'm assuming estrogen levels are normal being you said that your blood work was all in normal range

I havent used aromasin since pct ended last May. My blood results came back normal for what was tested but the test that I was suggested to get didnt really break it down. It did not test for proclactin. Im not sure if it tested for estrogen at all. Estradiol was normal. I kind of want to see my doctor about it, as Im not sure he could really pin me as a test user. But any info would be greatly appreciated!!! I need this ED to GTFO already!!!