Aromasin think its crashing my E2 somewhat - super tired - depressed

**MACKATTACK** · 02-05-2018, 05:19 PM

I am entering day 1 of my 3rd week of Test E 500mg/week Monday Friday. Proviron at 50mg and Nolvadex at 20mg.

12.5mg EOD, Aromasin

I was noticing on days I take the Aromasin I have been getting more and more tired. Today was terrible about an hour or two after I took it I was getting super tired and depressed.

This is my first Test cycle ever. I know some people are advocates of Nolva only on cycle, especially a simple one like Test and Proviron only. Also the proviron may help to reduce some estrogen.

I am going to eliminate the Aromasin and see how my body responds.

I will be getting blood work done in my 4th week.

**numbere** · 02-05-2018, 08:26 PM

Aromasin should be taken every day when on cycle.

It's literally impossible to crash your e2 when taking 500 mg/week of test and 12.5 mg of stane EOD.

If this is your first cycle I don't understand why you're taking nolva and proviron , they aren't needed.

Rule of thumb; never change your AI protocol without first having blood work results.

You would benefit from reading the thread attached below.

*Aromasin (Exemestane) vs Arimidex (Anastrozole) Unraveled*

**Clove1234** · 02-05-2018, 09:04 PM

I quit my ai on my first cycle and i am now only running nolva 10mg every day. Feel much better

**numbere** · 02-05-2018, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Clove1234

I quit my ai on my first cycle and i am now only running nolva 10mg every day. Feel much better

That was a poor decision.

**4irishmen** · 02-05-2018, 09:38 PM

I'm not smart enough to explain what was told to me about Novalex. That said I'll give it a shot in principal. I have run Novalex with several cycles. Very successfully. My most recent one was a total bust. Zero gains. Test cypinate and deca . I logically said...bunk gear. I have never run a AI before or had bloodwork. Old school and not the best ideas. Anyways I was told the Novalex is what wreck my cycle. The guy is on this board often.Hopefully he see this thread. He presented what seemed to be very good evidence to this position. I had the same issues but without AI. I'm sorry I'm not bringing much data. None the less hope you get it right. I feel like I wastes 10 weeks and $300+...Ended up over trained and felt like shit. One thing I should add. Post Cycle I had some bloodwork done. Only screened testosterone . My total testosterone was 742. Free Testosterone is .9
That's not a typo. .9!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

**MACKATTACK** · 02-05-2018, 11:02 PM

I am taking Proviron to help with the free test and to aid my Testosterone cycle.

I am taking the Nolvadex 20mg because I wanted to play it safe with Gyno. I had it as a kid and had it removed, never want that again, even if I lose a percentage of possible gains from running Nolva on cycle.

**fafaz_2007** · 02-05-2018, 11:09 PM

I get where you're coming from. I had pubertal gyno as well and it sucked. I don't want it to ever come back. But you'll wanna either do nolva or aromasin with those doses. not both. So yes I do think your estrogen has crashed. Eliminate the nolva on cycle and not aromasin. you will see much better results. specially if you are using nolva on your pct.

Last cycle I did, I did 600 mg of test only and i was running 12.5 aromasin daily. my levels were just perfect.

**MACKATTACK** · 02-05-2018, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by fafaz_2007

I get where you're coming from. I had pubertal gyno as well and it sucked. I don't want it to ever come back. But you'll wanna either do nolva or aromasin with those doses. not both. So yes I do think your estrogen has crashed. Eliminate the nolva on cycle and not aromasin. you will see much better results. specially if you are using nolva on your pct.

Last cycle I did, I did 600 mg of test only and i was running 12.5 aromasin daily. my levels were just perfect.

Nolvadex does not reduce estrogen since its SERM. It just doesnt allow the estrogen at the breast tissue. So if I am super low on my Estrogen it would be the Aromasin and possibly the Proviron having some effect. But proviron is widely debated that is does or does not have effect on the estrogen.

For now I am going Nolvadex only, I will report back. At the end of the day your first cycle is a Science test on your own body lol.

**fafaz_2007** · 02-05-2018, 11:29 PM

You are correct. But if nolva is blocking the receptors, it's basically as if you have no estrogen. This causes a few changes in your body. Libido issues and depression are two of the symptoms when you don't have enough estrogen involvement. aromasin has decreased the available estrogen, and nolva is blocking the receptors, so you feel these shitty sides.

I have done both. Nolva only on cycle, and aromasin only on cycle. And I can tell you aromasin is way better when it comes to how you feel.

To be clear. Nolva doesn't just affect the receptors at the breast tissue.

**MACKATTACK** · 02-06-2018, 12:30 AM

After reading up more I’m dropping the Nolva and keeping the aromasin .....then getting blood work next week

**AlphaMindz** · 02-06-2018, 02:14 PM

It seems like you're over training because there's no way you crashed you e2 with 12.5mg of Aromasin eod. You've been training a hell of a lot and your Test is literally just now STARTING to kick in, so everything you were feeling last week was either the Proviron or placebo. Try resting for 2 days and then training 2 days on, one day off. Just because you're on steroids and your recovery time and ability to synthesize new proteins is increased, it doesn't mean you can't run your body and CNS down! This is a common mistake I see people make. Training more does not necessarily mean better gains! Training harder and more intensely with the proper rest and nutrition is the recipe for success.

**MACKATTACK** · 02-06-2018, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

It seems like you're over training because there's no way you crashed you e2 with 12.5mg of Aromasin eod. You've been training a hell of a lot and your Test is literally just now STARTING to kick in, so everything you were feeling last week was either the Proviron or placebo. Try resting for 2 days and then training 2 days on, one day off. Just because you're on steroids and your recovery time and ability to synthesize new proteins is increased, it doesn't mean you can't run your body and CNS down! This is a common mistake I see people make. Training more does not necessarily mean better gains! Training harder and more intensely with the proper rest and nutrition is the recipe for success.

Definitely some great points, I agree. I am snowboarding this week for the big powder storm coming so I gave myself a rest day today and when I do ride I don't have a leg day since my legs extreme workouts everyday I ride.

**Clove1234** · 02-06-2018, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by numbere

That was a poor decision.

Where are you getting the rules for one cycle fits all information? Have you seen my bloodwork?

**numbere** · 02-07-2018, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Clove1234

Where are you getting the rules for one cycle fits all information? Have you seen my bloodwork?

I'd appreciate it if you'd drop the attitude.

I was made a staff member here because I'm knowledgeable in the source material and give solid advice.

First cycles are meant to be run a certain way for many reasons.

One of these reasons is a litmus for how to dose your AI on future cycles.

If you want to experiment cycling with no AI that's cool but it's an advanced technique that shouldn't be experimented with on your first go around.

Your rhetorical question regarding blood work is flawed because you'd have to pull labs while taking an AI for several weeks and again several weeks after AI termination.

**newbie2017** · 02-07-2018, 09:55 PM

Nolva is for pct. I haven't taken an AI in 6 weeks. My initial protocol was .25 arimidex eod but I felt horrible and dropped it as well. I couldn't even get an erection. I'm on my first cycle 500mg test e 2x's a week and 250iu hcg . Getting BW tomorrow to make sure my source is legit but No signs of high estrogen. My natural exogenous test was 965 so I'm looking forward to getting my bw back to see what my levels are. I feel great. I'm not emotional and I haven't had back acne or gyno problems. I'm not here to cause conflict and I definitely don't want to be kicked off the forum. I don't want to step on any toes because I'm still learning and I'm just sharing information and experimenting myself. Everyone is the teacher, the student, and the guinea pig of these science experiments at the end of the day. With that being said...

Gearheaded, I hope it's ok that I quote you on this one:

"this is all person dependent . if growth is your overall goal you may not want to take an AI at all.

Estrogen helps with muscle growth and other growth factors.. here are just a few benefits
- E helps promote nitric oxide production and stimulates better blood flow and relaxation of vascular system (it has cardiovascular benefits ,, this is why we see women in their early 20s with high levels of estrogen rarely ever having heart attack or stroke,, but men in their 20s still die from these things as well as do older post-menopause women with low estrogen)

- E works on a host of different receptors , from the brain, kidney, heart etc.. to skeletal muscle . Estrogen acts on a specific muscle receptor that is responsible for satellite cell proliferation (specifically interacts with ER-B receptors to increase myogenic substances). So estrogen encourages muscle growth in a very similar way as does growth hormone .. satellite cells are muscle stem cells that aide in growth and repair.

- Estrogen , in the presence of high levels of Test, will stimulate the elevation of IGF-1 (the most anabolic hormone) and thus aide in muscle growth as well as more satellite cell stimulation
^^. that right there is enough to warrant letting your E levels be elevated while on cycle if growth is your primary goal

thats kinda the science stuff . but even old school bodybuilders who had no idea the science as to why estrogen helps you grow knew it and they go on record saying they grew much better in the off season by not using an AI

if my main goal is growth , then I rarely use an AI (or use it at lower doses .. just depends on my goal for that cycle) but not every cycle we do is just about growth . if we want to stay tight and dry and less watery then we will probably need to use an AI often . my point is not to be afraid of E especially if growth is the goal.

my theory as to why high levels of test, with tren , with high levels of estrogen will really help a guy grow (if he's not gyno prone) is because of the massive spike in IGF-1 . IGF gains are more permanent growth gains , compared to just blowing up with Dbol for a few weeks"

Credit: gearheaded / knowledgeable member

**numbere** · 02-07-2018, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by newbie2017

Nolva is for pct. I haven't taken an AI in 6 weeks...

It doesn't make much sense to throw the results of the last 8 decades of AAS experimentation out the window because of one thread.

**AlphaMindz** · 02-10-2018, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by newbie2017

Nolva is for pct. I haven't taken an AI in 6 weeks. My initial protocol was .25 arimidex eod but I felt horrible and dropped it as well. I couldn't even get an erection. I'm on my first cycle 500mg test e 2x's a week and 250iu hcg . Getting BW tomorrow to make sure my source is legit but No signs of high estrogen. My natural exogenous test was 965 so I'm looking forward to getting my bw back to see what my levels are. I feel great. I'm not emotional and I haven't had back acne or gyno problems. I'm not here to cause conflict and I definitely don't want to be kicked off the forum. I don't want to step on any toes because I'm still learning and I'm just sharing information and experimenting myself. Everyone is the teacher, the student, and the guinea pig of these science experiments at the end of the day. With that being said...

Gearheaded, I hope it's ok that I quote you on this one:

"this is all person dependent . if growth is your overall goal you may not want to take an AI at all.

Estrogen helps with muscle growth and other growth factors.. here are just a few benefits
- E helps promote nitric oxide production and stimulates better blood flow and relaxation of vascular system (it has cardiovascular benefits ,, this is why we see women in their early 20s with high levels of estrogen rarely ever having heart attack or stroke,, but men in their 20s still die from these things as well as do older post-menopause women with low estrogen)

- E works on a host of different receptors , from the brain, kidney, heart etc.. to skeletal muscle . Estrogen acts on a specific muscle receptor that is responsible for satellite cell proliferation (specifically interacts with ER-B receptors to increase myogenic substances). So estrogen encourages muscle growth in a very similar way as does growth hormone .. satellite cells are muscle stem cells that aide in growth and repair.

- Estrogen , in the presence of high levels of Test, will stimulate the elevation of IGF-1 (the most anabolic hormone) and thus aide in muscle growth as well as more satellite cell stimulation
^^. that right there is enough to warrant letting your E levels be elevated while on cycle if growth is your primary goal

thats kinda the science stuff . but even old school bodybuilders who had no idea the science as to why estrogen helps you grow knew it and they go on record saying they grew much better in the off season by not using an AI

if my main goal is growth , then I rarely use an AI (or use it at lower doses .. just depends on my goal for that cycle) but not every cycle we do is just about growth . if we want to stay tight and dry and less watery then we will probably need to use an AI often . my point is not to be afraid of E especially if growth is the goal.

my theory as to why high levels of test, with tren , with high levels of estrogen will really help a guy grow (if he's not gyno prone) is because of the massive spike in IGF-1 . IGF gains are more permanent growth gains , compared to just blowing up with Dbol for a few weeks"

Credit: gearheaded / knowledgeable member

Dude I'm surprised .25mg of Adex eod dropped your estrogen to the point of not being able to get it up. Are you sure there aren't other factors at work here..? I'm with you though, Gearheaded also prompted me to try lowering my dose of Adex (although I wouldn't stop it altogether cause being on Tren as well I need to keep estrogen at least somewhat in check to keep prolactin down) and I gotta say I was surprised that I've actually put on a few pounds in the last 10 days or so.. I also look fuller, so I'm guessing I'm holding a bit more water but not too much to where I look bloated.

I was taking 1mg Adex e3d then dropped it to .5mg eod and felt good so decided to drop it even more to .25mg eod and I feel like that's the sweet spot. Still no puffiness or gyno symptoms nor am I getting any bloating whatsoever.. I'm not even on a lot of Test, but having Winny in there jacks up my free Test and with the Tren I've gotten serious Tren dick before when not running an AI so like it's been said, all of this stuff IS very personal to our own chemistry labs we call our bodies.

I feel it's important to keep an open mind with this sh*t and be willing to hear people out that know what they're talking about. We can always grow and learn and potentially get better results from making small adjustments. Of course the next step is to get blood work done to see exactly where I stand. I'll be reporting back with those numbers... Also getting ready to put up some more progress pics as I've been making some nice gains!

*Didn't mean to hijack just got to typing and went with it.

**Jerry2020** · 02-10-2018, 10:58 PM

Just a good example of how things work differently for everyone. On my first cycle that I’m just about to head into PCT I ran 12.5mg ed of Aromasin and had high E levels, ran 0.25 eod of Adex and still had sides like moodiness/aggression, increased acne, lack of energy etc. so I upped to 0.5 eod Adex and felt much better, seems like a high dose but I think it’s just about finding what works for you. Now I know what works for me at 500mg Test E per week I can go from there, that’s why it’s best to stick to one compound on a first cycle I believe

**MACKATTACK** · 02-10-2018, 11:06 PM

Just an update:

What I did was dropped the Nolva entirely and kept the 12.5mg EOD of Aromasin . I feel better, little to no mood swings now. I don't have any real bloat of acne issues at all. Now I do cardio 7 days a week and drink mainly water and eat super clean. Monday is the beginning of Week 4 for my Test E 500mg proviron and hgh. I have taken HGH before for long periods of time and I notice that has always been a mood equalizer for me.

Overall I feel ALOT better since making these changes. Just wanted to let you guys know. I will be getting blood work done within the next week or so.