Chronic venous insufficiency questions

**ConantheBunino** · 01-02-2018, 01:55 PM

Good afternoon.

I'm considering my first cycle within the next few months but have some underlying health issues that I wanted to discuss with experienced members before doing so. I got a late start into lifting so I missed the teenage and 20 something testosterone bump..

I have chronic venous insufficiency with mild skin pigmentation issues in my lower extremities. I have no heart issues and no DVT.

My stats are "okay," 34 years old, 200 lbs, 5'10", 15 percent bf, lifting since 30.

With the chronic venous insufficiency, would I be more at risk for issues like DVT? Is it too much of a risk? Should I have been avoiding heavy lifting altogether to begin with?

Thanks for your help in advance. My first cycle will be VERY introductory, being a 12 week var/test cycle with an AI and PCT.

**1moreset024** · 01-02-2018, 02:41 PM

So the veins and valves in legs don't work properly causing inflammation and swelling.

I can't answer but I can hypothesize

I'd think it may set you up for dvt in the presence of aas use.

**ConantheBunino** · 01-02-2018, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by 1moreset024

So the veins and valves in legs don't work properly causing inflammation and swelling.

I can't answer but I can hypothesize

I'd think it may set you up for dvt in the presence of aas use.

That's a big fear of mine, among others.. Unfortunately, it's all speculative I suppose, as no one can truly predict how their body will react to AAS.

I have an appointment with a vein specialist this coming Monday and will ask (thank God for HIPAA regulations)...

I'll ask then and report my findings for those free that are interested. Thanks for the response, man.

**ConantheBunino** · 01-02-2018, 03:18 PM

I've also read that test would more likely contribute to DVT than Anavar , but there's no way I'm running a var only cycle, just to be letdown and broke..

**David LoPan** · 01-02-2018, 06:42 PM

I would be taking aspirin 81 MG a day and make an appointment with a cardiologist. Depending on what type of venous insufficiency you have you might be a candidate for saphenous vein ablation. This is an issue that you should be talking to a medical doctor about as far as what you can do and what you cannot do. Get your blood labs done, a untra sound of your legs and see what they tell you that you can do.

You might want to consider wearing compression stockings on a daily basis until then to help with blood from out of your legs.

**MuscleScience** · 01-02-2018, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by ConantheBunino

That's a big fear of mine, among others.. Unfortunately, it's all speculative I suppose, as no one can truly predict how their body will react to AAS.

I have an appointment with a vein specialist this coming Monday and will ask (thank God for HIPAA regulations)...

I'll ask then and report my findings for those free that are interested. Thanks for the response, man.

You aren’t going to get a unbiased opinion on this from your Doc. Most will parrot what they are taught in med school.

The better question to ask would be that you are considering going on TRT due to symptoms and so on and see if you get a legitimate answer. No MD is going to ever give you the OK to go on “roids.” But TRT on the other hand is a legitimate medical procedure.

Plus you could pubmed TRT and your condition as key words and see what pops up in the medical literature.

**ConantheBunino** · 01-03-2018, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

You aren’t going to get a unbiased opinion on this from your Doc. Most will parrot what they are taught in med school.

The better question to ask would be that you are considering going on TRT due to symptoms and so on and see if you get a legitimate answer. No MD is going to ever give you the OK to go on “roids.” But TRT on the other hand is a legitimate medical procedure.

Plus you could pubmed TRT and your condition as key words and see what pops up in the medical literature.

That was fairly foolish of me to assume that they would give me an unbiased opinion, haha.

I am a candidate for saphenous vein ablation, and, interestingly enough, low testosterone could lead to higher instances of venous insufficiency. Therefore, the TRT discussion would be totally warranted.

Another question as an aside- at what point does TRT become AAS? In other words, what amount would one need to see accelerated results? My original plan was for roughly 350mg per week along with the 40 daily of var, but if I'm a candidate for legitimate TRT, would that be "enough?"

**David LoPan** · 01-03-2018, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by ConantheBunino

That was fairly foolish of me to assume that they would give me an unbiased opinion, haha.

I am a candidate for saphenous vein ablation, and, interestingly enough, low testosterone could lead to higher instances of venous insufficiency. Therefore, the TRT discussion would be totally warranted.

Another question as an aside- at what point does TRT become AAS? In other words, what amount would one need to see accelerated results? My original plan was for roughly 350mg per week along with the 40 daily of var, but if I'm a candidate for legitimate TRT, would that be "enough?"

TRT will get you feeling like old self again. It will make a HUGE difference in your life. Once that is dialed in then you can up the dose to an anabolic dose, say 500 MG a week for a cycle and then go back to your TRT dose, NO PCT.

I had the saphenous vein ablation done a few years ago and it stopped all the pain in my legs and reduced my risk of having a blood clot. A very easy procedure, a couple of days rest and then compression stockings for a couple of weeks. When I know I am going to be on my feet all day I wear compression socks and they make a world of difference.

**ConantheBunino** · 01-03-2018, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by David LoPan

TRT will get you feeling like old self again. It will make a HUGE difference in your life. Once that is dialed in then you can up the dose to an anabolic dose, say 500 MG a week for a cycle and then go back to your TRT dose, NO PCT.

I had the saphenous vein ablation done a few years ago and it stopped all the pain in my legs and reduced my risk of having a blood clot. A very easy procedure, a couple of days rest and then compression stockings for a couple of weeks. When I know I am going to be on my feet all day I wear compression socks and they make a world of difference.

That's really promising news. Did you get any of the skin staining from leaky valves as well? It seems as though that once I get the procedure done, that I'll be in decent shape to get started.

How long was it until you able to return to lifting heavy after the procedure?

I genuinely appreciate your patience and advice, guys. Thank you.

**David LoPan** · 01-03-2018, 03:37 PM

I think I had to be off for a week maybe two on legs workouts (perfect excuse to skip leg day). I had to be in bed with legs elevated and wrapped for the weekend but I could walk fine. I did not have skin staining but they had to remove some varicose veins. I was awake and saw the whole thing. I even asked if I could pull out one of the veins. I knew the cardiologist from HS and College and being a nurse he said "sure if you want".....BIG MISTAKE. I then asked for Versed (midazolam) IV and do not remember the rest. Wife is a nurse as well, so I think I remember it more due to the video she took.

After that weekend, I was back at the gym. Have not had any issues with my legs since then.

**TRA** · 01-04-2018, 09:52 PM

You will definitely be prone to edema from water weight if you don't keep your estrogen at bay, and even then it may occur. This can be a drag appearance wise. As far as test making you hypercoagulable, I haven't seen anything on that but you could do a lit search as suggested for testosterone and venous insufficiency. Doubtful you will find anything. If you are that active (solid split and cardio) I can't see that there would be a risk. Keep labs current and hematocrit in decent range.

As far as asking your doc, even if you find a cool one, it isn't that they won't give you the info, they just may not know it. Not everything is taught in med school and this is a fairly obscure question. Funny how guys get pissy on the forum because doctors won't tell them what they want to hear. Half of medicine is cover your ass and steroid endorsement is a sure way to get a lawsuit if someone has an issue on them.

**ConantheBunino** · 03-01-2018, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by TrailRunAZ

You will definitely be prone to edema from water weight if you don't keep your estrogen at bay, and even then it may occur. This can be a drag appearance wise. As far as test making you hypercoagulable, I haven't seen anything on that but you could do a lit search as suggested for testosterone and venous insufficiency. Doubtful you will find anything. If you are that active (solid split and cardio) I can't see that there would be a risk. Keep labs current and hematocrit in decent range.

As far as asking your doc, even if you find a cool one, it isn't that they won't give you the info, they just may not know it. Not everything is taught in med school and this is a fairly obscure question. Funny how guys get pissy on the forum because doctors won't tell them what they want to hear. Half of medicine is cover your ass and steroid endorsement is a sure way to get a lawsuit if someone has an issue on them.

So again, just to be sure, will using Test E and Anavar have a negative effect on my venous reflex, etc?

Last minute check since I've got everything in have and am being a bit of a wuss before I get going. Lol..

Thank you!

**ConantheBunino** · 03-01-2018, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by David LoPan

I think I had to be off for a week maybe two on legs workouts (perfect excuse to skip leg day). I had to be in bed with legs elevated and wrapped for the weekend but I could walk fine. I did not have skin staining but they had to remove some varicose veins. I was awake and saw the whole thing. I even asked if I could pull out one of the veins. I knew the cardiologist from HS and College and being a nurse he said "sure if you want".....BIG MISTAKE. I then asked for Versed (midazolam) IV and do not remember the rest. Wife is a nurse as well, so I think I remember it more due to the video she took.

After that weekend, I was back at the gym. Have not had any issues with my legs since then.

Sorry, I meant to respond to you...

Do you believe, since were in the same boat that I'd be okay doing the aforementioned cycle prior to saphenous vein ablation?

**TRA** · 03-02-2018, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by ConantheBunino

So again, just to be sure, will using Test E and Anavar have a negative effect on my venous reflex, etc?

Last minute check since I've got everything in have and am being a bit of a wuss before I get going. Lol..

Thank you!

I don’t think AAS will have any direct effect on your venous situation unless you gain water weight, and then simply the volume in the veins in the lower extremities. I always feel much better when e2 is a little high (high normal or just above) and this comes with a bit of water weight but nothing horrible. You may want to monitor e2 to lower point but where you still feel good and so e2 isn’t low enough that you get sides from it.
Again, keep an eye on your blood count and stay in the normal range with donations as needed.

And since you mentioned venous reflux, here is an article summation on increased risk for DVT with venous reflux. But this has nothing to do with AAS, it’s simply related to your pre-existing condition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26993861

**ConantheBunino** · 03-02-2018, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by TrailRunAZ

I don’t think AAS will have any direct effect on your venous situation unless you gain water weight, and then simply the volume in the veins in the lower extremities. I always feel much better when e2 is a little high (high normal or just above) and this comes with a bit of water weight but nothing horrible. You may want to monitor e2 to lower point but where you still feel good and so e2 isn’t low enough that you get sides from it.
Again, keep an eye on your blood count and stay in the normal range with donations as needed.

And since you mentioned venous reflux, here is an article summation on increased risk for DVT with venous reflux. But this has nothing to do with AAS, it’s simply related to your pre-existing condition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26993861

This was really informative. Thank you.

I'm a tad concerned with edema, but I'm going to be taking DIM regularly and I'll have my Arimidex on hand just in case. Hopefully the Anavar will counteract any possible retention from the test-e.

I will be wearing my compression a bit more than usual as well. During my last blood work it showed my red blood cell count was on the high end of normal, so how many times do you think during a 10-12 week cycle should I donate or have blood work done?

Again, thank you for your continued patience. This first cycle is going to be very mild due to the issues I mentioned and my propensity towards hypochondria as is, lol

**TRA** · 03-02-2018, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by ConantheBunino

This was really informative. Thank you.

I'm a tad concerned with edema, but I'm going to be taking DIM regularly and I'll have my Arimidex on hand just in case. Hopefully the Anavar will counteract any possible retention from the test-e.

I will be wearing my compression a bit more than usual as well. During my last blood work it showed my red blood cell count was on the high end of normal, so how many times do you think during a 10-12 week cycle should I donate or have blood work done?

Again, thank you for your continued patience. This first cycle is going to be very mild due to the issues I mentioned and my propensity towards hypochondria as is, lol

I don’t think DIM will do much if your test is 500/wk or so. I would consider adex from the beginning just to stay on top of e2, but that’s me.

I know you are kind of kidding, but I don’t think AAS + hypochondria, even mild, is a good combination. Just adds way too much potential for anxiety which I’m sure you can appreciate. Just a thought - not for everyone so don’t hesitate to come off cycle if needed and maybe consider GH or something like that long term combined with diet to help achieve your goals.

**ConantheBunino** · 03-02-2018, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by TrailRunAZ

I don’t think DIM will do much if your test is 500/wk or so. I would consider adex from the beginning just to stay on top of e2, but that’s me.

I know you are kind of kidding, but I don’t think AAS + hypochondria, even mild, is a good combination. Just adds way too much potential for anxiety which I’m sure you can appreciate. Just a thought - not for everyone so don’t hesitate to come off cycle if needed and maybe consider GH or something like that long term combined with diet to help achieve your goals.

I appreciate your honesty. I can be a little nervous at times, for sure. Honestly, at the slightest hint of an issue, I'll be ending the cycle.

Given the info, should I just drop to 350 a week vs 500 on the test e?

I know everyone has opinions on the Arimidex , but I was under the impression that it's only necessary if a symptom presents itself?

Thanks again.

**TRA** · 03-02-2018, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by ConantheBunino

I appreciate your honesty. I can be a little nervous at times, for sure. Honestly, at the slightest hint of an issue, I'll be ending the cycle.

Given the info, should I just drop to 350 a week vs 500 on the test e?

I know everyone has opinions on the Arimidex , but I was under the impression that it's only necessary if a symptom presents itself?

Thanks again.

I don’t think there would be any gain to dropping the test, the opposite in fact. That is a very mild cycle.
As far as adex, I just feel better when it’s in a certain range. I am not gyno prone, knock on wood, but why carry all the edema with excess e2 and you should consider the same based on the venous issue. Not so I can convince you to do it like I do, but more in terms of what your concerns with the venous issues were. Granted the edema is fluid in the tissues, it will likely contribute to the venous insufficiency if you get edema because of the lymphatic congestion and great inefficiency in the lower extremities moving the blood up and out. Just a thought.

**ConantheBunino** · 03-02-2018, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by TrailRunAZ

I don’t think there would be any gain to dropping the test, the opposite in fact. That is a very mild cycle.
As far as adex, I just feel better when it’s in a certain range. I am not gyno prone, knock on wood, but why carry all the edema with excess e2 and you should consider the same based on the venous issue. Not so I can convince you to do it like I do, but more in terms of what your concerns with the venous issues were. Granted the edema is fluid in the tissues, it will likely contribute to the venous insufficiency if you get edema because of the lymphatic congestion and great inefficiency in the lower extremities moving the blood up and out. Just a thought.

You're absolutely right. I was really hoping the DIM would be enough to quell the potential for CVI related issues, but it's probably for the best to take a little Dex while on cycle considering the concern.

This has been really constructive. Thank you!

**Dannyboy51577** · 03-02-2018, 02:52 PM

Im very interested in this subject Conan- something i know nothing about. If you could keep this thread updated i would apprecitte it. Its definitely worth reading. Good luck brother

**ConantheBunino** · 03-02-2018, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dannyboy51577

Im very interested in this subject Conan- something i know nothing about. If you could keep this thread updated i would apprecitte it. Its definitely worth reading. Good luck brother

I'll keep a log. I know everyone says that, but I'll genuinely do it, even if the results are lackluster or something goes wrong. Thanks!