Beginner seeking first time advice

[Influential]

I’m 24 years old and have been training and dieting well for the last 6 years. Lately I’ve been thinking more about running some sort of cycle. I know with my age it could be hurt me in the long haul, but I have had people tell me if I PCT properly and do a proper first-time cycle (250mg of Test E) I’ll be okay.

Basically I’m just wondering if it would be a smart or dumb decision, or if an alternative (i.e a SARM like LGD-4033) would be a safer bet.

Apologies if this isn’t the correct place to post, I’m new here. Thanks in advance

[GearHeaded]

I’m 24 years old and have been training and dieting well for the last 6 years. Lately I’ve been thinking more about running some sort of cycle. I know with my age it could be hurt me in the long haul, but I have had people tell me if I PCT properly and do a proper first-time cycle (250mg of Test E) I’ll be okay.

Basically I’m just wondering if it would be a smart or dumb decision, or if an alternative (i.e a SARM like LGD-4033) would be a safer bet.

Apologies if this isn’t the correct place to post, I’m new here. Thanks in advance

whats in bold is what I like to hear! the last 24 year old on here asking about taking steroids said almost the same thing as you only instead of "years" he said "months" (lol, are you kidding me, been training for months is all and wants to do gear).

Post up what your diet and training looks like . also your stats. IF your diet and training are not optimized then the gear is just going to be a third variable that will skew your results. lets see if things are dialed in , that way you can get the most out of your first cycle

[Influential]

whats in bold is what I like to hear! the last 24 year old on here asking about taking steroids said almost the same thing as you only instead of "years" he said "months" (lol, are you kidding me, been training for months is all and wants to do gear).

Post up what your diet and training looks like . also your stats. IF your diet and training are not optimized then the gear is just going to be a third variable that will skew your results. lets see if things are dialed in , that way you can get the most out of your first cycle

It varies mostly as I try to change it up when I feel like my body isn’t progressing, but currently I’m doing a PPL split mixing it up with strength/hypertrophy days. Current squat max is 405, deadlifts at 455 and bench at 305. Numbers might not seem great but I’m an ectomorph and have come a long way.

I’ve done my blood work and my results are OK. My LH and FSH are on the lower spectrum of Normal but not considered “Low”. All my test levels are around the mid-normal range.

Lately I have been feeling discouraged because the strength and size gains have seemed to stop. I want an extra push but don’t want to screw myself or hormones up for the future. Hence why I threw the idea of LGD 4033 in there as it doesn’t surpress as much as a cycle of Test E would.

If anyone has any experience with SARMS I’d be curious to hear any type of advice.

[GearHeaded]

well if you been training hard and consistent for 6 years , then yeah your going to get to a point where you plateau and the gains come really slow.
if your really at that point, then yes running a cycle will be a game changer for you.

I have plenty of experience with SARMs for myself and with clients (mainly female clients). I generally feel that SARMs are best for females and for guys on TRT. Do I use LGD , yes. but I only use it during times of "detox" where I'm pretty much off of all gear, except for a TRT dose of test.
SARMs are a lot more powerful for women in my opinion.
If an older guy is on TRT and he wants to experiment with some extra help, then adding SARMS to the TRT can have some benefits. but for a guy not on TRT , its not worth the suppression , you might as well just run a real cycle.

[likelifting]

I need to do some reading on SARMs .

[Influential]

well if you been training hard and consistent for 6 years , then yeah your going to get to a point where you plateau and the gains come really slow.
if your really at that point, then yes running a cycle will be a game changer for you.

I have plenty of experience with SARMs for myself and with clients (mainly female clients). I generally feel that SARMs are best for females and for guys on TRT. Do I use LGD , yes. but I only use it during times of "detox" where I'm pretty much off of all gear, except for a TRT dose of test.
SARMs are a lot more powerful for women in my opinion.
If an older guy is on TRT and he wants to experiment with some extra help, then adding SARMS to the TRT can have some benefits. but for a guy not on TRT , its not worth the suppression , you might as well just run a real cycle.

Am I at an age where I can do it safely without it coming back to bite me in the a**? I’ve read and watched videos saying to wait because of what it can shut down naturally, I’m just growing impatient.

Was the LGD you took pill or liquid form? I’ve read that the pills are nothing but pro hormone, but have also been told otherwise.

[Influential]

I need to do some reading on SARMs.

There’s a lot to read

[David LoPan]

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rst-cycle.html This a good place to start reading. You should also read this as well. https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...-steroids.html

[likelifting]

There’s a lot to read

Like peptides? I used to be on Dat's site and man, I had to read and reread what he wrote 3 times.

[likelifting]

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rst-cycle.html This a good place to start reading. You should also read this as well. https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...-steroids.html

Never mind, thought you replying to me.

[cousinmuscles]

It varies mostly as I try to change it up when I feel like my body isn’t progressing, but currently I’m doing a PPL split mixing it up with strength/hypertrophy days. Current squat max is 405, deadlifts at 455 and bench at 305. Numbers might not seem great but I’m an ectomorph and have come a long way.

I’ve done my blood work and my results are OK. My LH and FSH are on the lower spectrum of Normal but not considered “Low”. All my test levels are around the mid-normal range.

Lately I have been feeling discouraged because the strength and size gains have seemed to stop. I want an extra push but don’t want to screw myself or hormones up for the future. Hence why I threw the idea of LGD 4033 in there as it doesn’t surpress as much as a cycle of Test E would.

If anyone has any experience with SARMS I’d be curious to hear any type of advice.

Welcome to the forum. Check the threads David LoPan linked to. Your stats are very good for a natural lifter. You may recover from a cycle and retain some or all of the gains (or none!) but generally most people recover from AAS, this might be an interesting read for you: http://asih.net/_scally_anabolic%20s...f%20muscle.pdf - You are younger and your HPTA is still developing so there are risks not mentioned in that book, hence the thread "cycles gone wrong for the young" posted above...

I tried LGD and threw it away before finishing the bottle. I got it as a freebie. It seemed like it would provide minimal if any results for a male and I haven't seen a log from any male getting good gains from it. Lots of news reports of high level female athletes getting caught using it though

In your case I would spend the time waiting by researching stuff.

[Influential]

Welcome to the forum. Check the threads David LoPan linked to. Your stats are very good for a natural lifter. You may recover from a cycle and retain some or all of the gains (or none!) but generally most people recover from AAS, this might be an interesting read for you: —— You are younger and your HPTA is still developing so there are risks not mentioned in that book, hence the thread "cycles gone wrong for the young" posted above...

I tried LGD and threw it away before finishing the bottle. I got it as a freebie. It seemed like it would provide minimal if any results for a male and I haven't seen a log from any male getting good gains from it. Lots of news reports of high level female athletes getting caught using it though

In your case I would spend the time waiting by researching stuff.

Thanks for the detailed reply. After more research and opinions I’ve pretty much thrown the idea of LGD out the window.

I’ve read the articles about young people & steroids , as well as the Beginner Cycle article. It recommends to run 250mg/12 weeks but is there any harm in running less than that?

If I were to start my cycle off at around 125-150mg and possibly increase after week 8 or so, would I have to adjust my aromasin and HcG intake? I’ve read that too much AI could inhibit gains, and if my test dosage is lower than the recommended 250mg would that mean I would have to lower everything else as well?
Apologies if I sound like a complete noob

[Influential]

Welcome to the forum. Check the threads David LoPan linked to. Your stats are very good for a natural lifter. You may recover from a cycle and retain some or all of the gains (or none!) but generally most people recover from AAS, this might be an interesting read for you —(can’t post link)— You are younger and your HPTA is still developing so there are risks not mentioned in that book, hence the thread "cycles gone wrong for the young" posted above...

I tried LGD and threw it away before finishing the bottle. I got it as a freebie. It seemed like it would provide minimal if any results for a male and I haven't seen a log from any male getting good gains from it. Lots of news reports of high level female athletes getting caught using it though

In your case I would spend the time waiting by researching stuff.

Thanks for the detailed reply. After more research I have basically thrown the idea of LD out the window.

I’ve read the young & steroid article as well as the Beginner cycle article and have a question.

If I were to run a test E cycle at a lower dosage than the recommended 250mg, at around 125-150mg, would I need to lower my Aromasin and HcG intake as well? I’ve read that too much AI could inhibit gains as the body does still need estrogen, so if my Test dosage is lower would that mean I would need to lower my dose of everything else?
Apologies if I sound like a complete noob

[cousinmuscles]

Thanks for the detailed reply. After more research I have basically thrown the idea of LD out the window.

I’ve read the young & steroid article as well as the Beginner cycle article and have a question.

If I were to run a test E cycle at a lower dosage than the recommended 250mg, at around 125-150mg, would I need to lower my Aromasin and HcG intake as well? I’ve read that too much AI could inhibit gains as the body does still need estrogen, so if my Test dosage is lower would that mean I would need to lower my dose of everything else?
Apologies if I sound like a complete noob

You probably won't need an AI at all at 250mg. The question is why only use 250mg, it will shut you down as much as 500mg will do. 125mg is pretty much TRT levels and is pointless for performance enhancement... If you are going to do a cycle then you might as well do 500mg a week.

HCG should stay the same thats basically a minimum dose. 250 iu HCG pretty much maintains intratesticular testosterone levels https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15713727

Good choice on the exemestane. Harder to go wrong with it as it has a limit to how low it can take your estrogen and you don't get an estrogen rebound once you come off it. A good read about it here: https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...aveled%2A.html
and https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rdosed-ai.html

[Influential]

You probably won't need an AI at all at 250mg. The question is why only use 250mg, it will shut you down as much as 500mg will do. 125mg is pretty much TRT levels and is pointless for performance enhancement... If you are going to do a cycle then you might as well do 500mg a week.

HCG should stay the same thats basically a minimum dose. 250 iu HCG pretty much maintains intratesticular testosterone levels https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15713727

Good choice on the exemestane. Harder to go wrong with it as it has a limit to how low it can take your estrogen and you don't get an estrogen rebound once you come off it.

I was basing the 250mg off of the Beginner Cycle article. I also have a friend who is only running 100mg/week and is seeing good results. My dosage is still undecided for now.

The article states than an A.I. should still be used weeks 1-14 at 0.25mg EOD. I see your point though, maybe not entirely necessary but I will still be sure to have some on hand Incase of any gyno or other side effects.

Is 250iu every 3.5 days of HcG necessary with that low dose of test E (250mg)? Someone from my gym who has been on steroids for years has told me only to run it at the end of my cycle during my PCT as it could hinder results.
On top of that, Dylan Gemelli (unsure of how reliable he is) has said to only run HcG during the last 4 weeks of the cycle.
I just want to have a good idea of how much and when HcG I should be using.

[Dannyboy51577]

Cousin hit it on the head.
Lets say your normal test level is 900 for example- not unrealistic for someone your age.
Now you start test at 200 or 250mg a wk. Once you introduce it, your natural test shuts down and your 900 goes away. Your body is now relying on what u put into it instead of making its own. That 125-150per week you were referring to maybe gets you back to your 900, maybe not.
Lets say for example that 200mg/wk gets you back to your 900 or 1000. What have you gained? Nothing. You are still operating in basically the same neighborhood you were before you started.

So like cousin is saying- its counter productive to add in test just to get you to levels close to what you are already at. Now if you were to go with 500mg/wk, thats still a bottom level mild dosage overall, but would get your level to 2500 or 3000 or 3500, which puts you in the category of 3x or 4x natural. Then you can make some progress

[GearHeaded]

just to add to what Danny said. Testosterone and muscle building does not go up together in linear fashion, meaning that as test levels rise and go up muscle building does NOT go up with it equally.
lets say your test levels are 500 ng/dl and you take a small dose test cycle and replace that 500 with 900 ng/dl of test. WELL muscle building may not of went up or been enhanced at all just cause your test level is nearly doubled . it does not work that way. it (usually) takes a supra-physiological dose for your body to respond to and turn on all the muscle building mechanisms. basically this supra phsyildogical level illicits a response , where as a normal elevation of test levels in the body does not.

the point of running a test cycle is to get this supra physiological level and thus the muscle building response that comes from that.. testosterone is not magic, just injecting a small amount of it in your body isn't going to magically build muscle. theres lots of other things that need to happen.


note: now having said that, you can get a muscle building response from a lower dose of test if your correcting a deficiency . eg., if you have very low test, lets say 100 ng/dl and you correct that deficiency with TRT, that correction can illicit a muscle building response.

[cousinmuscles]

I was basing the 250mg off of the Beginner Cycle article. I also have a friend who is only running 100mg/week and is seeing good results. My dosage is still undecided for now.

The article states than an A.I. should still be used weeks 1-14 at 0.25mg EOD. I see your point though, maybe not entirely necessary but I will still be sure to have some on hand Incase of any gyno or other side effects.

Is 250iu every 3.5 days of HcG necessary with that low dose of test E (250mg)? Someone from my gym who has been on steroids for years has told me only to run it at the end of my cycle during my PCT as it could hinder results.
On top of that, Dylan Gemelli (unsure of how reliable he is) has said to only run HcG during the last 4 weeks of the cycle.
I just want to have a good idea of how much and when HcG I should be using.

You must have misread the article, it says 250mg twice a week.

Yep the HCG dose doesn't change because of the test dose, they're unrelated. The rationale behind running low dose HCG throughout the cycle is to maintain testicular function. Read up on the HPTA to understand, the SERMs like clomid and nolva signal the brain (the Hypothalamus-Pituitary) to produce FSH and LH, which in turn signal the testes to produce testosterone . HCG acts like LH and signals the testicles to keep working. If you shut down your HPTA with exogenous testosterone, your testicles won't receive that signal to produce test and will shrink over time and not work. Why use HCG at a higher dose to fix what's broken, when you don't have to break it at all? Also with higher HCG doses you risk desensitization at the testicles receptors to LH - not sure about dosages - which would really suck later on as you risk not being able to produce testosterone.

[cousinmuscles]

Also the guy in your gym is wrong. HCG won't hinder gains. It will increase your testosterone levels on cycle (not so much though). If you use it during your PCT, you're up for some rough times after that PCT. HCG is suppressive to natural testosterone production. When using SERMs you try to push your brain to produce LH and FSH to signal the testicles to start producing. HCG will cancel out the effects of that while signaling your hypothalamus-pituitary axis to stop working as there is enough testosterone and LH around. Once you stop using them it's pretty much like not doing any PCT but with the slight benefit of having no testicular atrophy.

In short, PCT consists of turning the test production button on. Injecting testosterone and HCG turns the testosterone production button off. Using HCG on cycle keeps the testosterone production factory (the testicles) functional.

[Dannyboy51577]

Hey man-you may want to double check those numbers on the guy you know. To run 100mg/wk is very counter productive- unless you normal test levels are naturally very low, like 100 or 200 ng/dl. If you have anything near normal test levels without aas, adding 100mg/wk is going to end up giving you lower numbers than most 20 or 30 something year olds produce naturally.

Like i was saying in the earlier post- once your body senses the test coming in, it sees that it has a supply coming from elsewhere and stops production in the testicles. So if you are naturally a 700ng/dl level, introduce 100mg/wk, natural shuts down, and you end up with that 100mg giving you a level in the 500 range- of ur lucky. So i would probably check that out before mqking your decision- it sounds like theres a mix up or you are getting wrong info.

[ScotchGuard02]

Am I at an age where I can do it safely without it coming back to bite me in the a**? I’ve read and watched videos saying to wait because of what it can shut down naturally, I’m just growing impatient.

Was the LGD you took pill or liquid form? I’ve read that the pills are nothing but pro hormone, but have also been told otherwise.

First of all, each body is not identical but there are trends. The medical community says that the glands, including the pituitary gland, that control the nearly 100 different hormones does not fully mature in males until mid 20's. Does mid 20's mean 24 year old? 25 year old? 26 year old? The longer you wait before you cycle, greater the chance to avoiding any issues with your glands. Ultimately, the decision is up to you. Waiting a year could make a big difference, or not. I know you're impatient. It feels like you're planning to spin the roulette wheel with regards to your HPTA maturity. Think carefully before you act.

[Influential]

just to add to what Danny said. Testosterone and muscle building does not go up together in linear fashion, meaning that as test levels rise and go up muscle building does NOT go up with it equally.
lets say your test levels are 500 ng/dl and you take a small dose test cycle and replace that 500 with 900 ng/dl of test. WELL muscle building may not of went up or been enhanced at all just cause your test level is nearly doubled . it does not work that way. it (usually) takes a supra-physiological dose for your body to respond to and turn on all the muscle building mechanisms. basically this supra phsyildogical level illicits a response , where as a normal elevation of test levels in the body does not.

the point of running a test cycle is to get this supra physiological level and thus the muscle building response that comes from that.. testosterone is not magic, just injecting a small amount of it in your body isn't going to magically build muscle. theres lots of other things that need to happen.


note: now having said that, you can get a muscle building response from a lower dose of test if your correcting a deficiency . eg., if you have very low test, lets say 100 ng/dl and you correct that deficiency with TRT, that correction can illicit a muscle building response.

in Canada the ranges are

Test: 8.4 - 28.8nmol/L - I’m at 14.6
Free Test: 196-636pmol/L - im at 253.

So my test levels are in the mid range of Normal where as my Free Test is on the lower end of the range

This is why I was considering starting my dosage off at a lower mg/week. I think 50mg/week would be too high for someone with my levels, but then again I’m a bit uneducated.

[Influential]

You must have misread the article, it says 250mg twice a week.

Yep the HCG dose doesn't change because of the test dose, they're unrelated. The rationale behind running low dose HCG throughout the cycle is to maintain testicular function. Read up on the HPTA to understand, the SERMs like clomid and nolva signal the brain (the Hypothalamus-Pituitary) to produce FSH and LH, which in turn signal the testes to produce testosterone. HCG acts like LH and signals the testicles to keep working. If you shut down your HPTA with exogenous testosterone, your testicles won't receive that signal to produce test and will shrink over time and not work. Why use HCG at a higher dose to fix what's broken, when you don't have to break it at all? Also with higher HCG doses you risk desensitization at the testicles receptors to LH - not sure about dosages - which would really suck later on as you risk not being able to produce testosterone.

Double checked this. You’re right I was misreading, thanks for the clarification. See my above reply, I just think 500mg/week would be too high for someone with my levels but I would be interested to hear your opions.

[Influential]

Hey man-you may want to double check those numbers on the guy you know. To run 100mg/wk is very counter productive- unless you normal test levels are naturally very low, like 100 or 200 ng/dl. If you have anything near normal test levels without aas, adding 100mg/wk is going to end up giving you lower numbers than most 20 or 30 something year olds produce naturally.

Like i was saying in the earlier post- once your body senses the test coming in, it sees that it has a supply coming from elsewhere and stops production in the testicles. So if you are naturally a 700ng/dl level, introduce 100mg/wk, natural shuts down, and you end up with that 100mg giving you a level in the 500 range- of ur lucky. So i would probably check that out before mqking your decision- it sounds like theres a mix up or you are getting wrong info.

Spoke to the guy, turns out he’s running a different ester and is injecting 100mg every few days, big misconception on my part.

My numbers are not that high, for whatever reason. Which is why I’m considering running a lower dosage, but looking for anyone’s opinion and feedback before I do start a cycle

[cousinmuscles]

Reread the posts in this thread bro you've got it wrong. 50mg will do nothing but shut you down and replace your natural production with about 35mg pure testosterone per week (long ester testosterones are about 70% pure testosterone). A male produces 5-10mg test per day naturally. 35 will put you in the lower range... Read GearHeadeds explanation on how a TRT dose won't do much at all for you...

[Influential]

Reread the posts in this thread bro you've got it wrong. 50mg will do nothing but shut you down and replace your natural production with about 35mg pure testosterone per week (long ester testosterones are about 70% pure testosterone). A male produces 5-10mg test per day naturally. 35 will put you in the lower range... Read GearHeadeds explanation on how a TRT dose won't do much at all for you...

Apologies for the confusion, I agree that 50mg would be borderline pointless. I’d like to find the right dosage right for me considering my levels posted above.
What would you recommend?

[cousinmuscles]

Apologies for the confusion, I agree that 50mg would be borderline pointless. I’d like to find the right dosage right for me considering my levels posted above.
What would you recommend?

Don't mess with hormones trying to fix what isn't broken! Wait a while and follow the advice regarding age and development in the brain. When you're ready, if you're going to risk shutting down your natural production, IMO just do a 500mg cycle and get something in return for the risk.

[GearHeaded]

500mg will give you the most "bang" for your buck out of a first cycle. however, it may require to you run an AI. I'd start with 350-400mg on your first cycle, get blood work at week 5 and see how things are going. you may have great test levels 2500+ and Estrogen at high normal and have no need for an AI . heck after 6 weeks maybe you push the dosage up some.

THEN , on your second cycle you go ahead and bump it up to 500 and start there , and again get blood work and see where that puts you. on your 3rd cycle bump it up 700, or just do the 400mg again but add a second compound like a VAR or Primo.

but don't start with a TRT dose and not get to the supraphysiological levels you need to grow. if you have good high quality gear then 350-400 will put you in supraphysioligical ranges.


FYI - your friend is getting by with a lower dose because he is running Test prop. that has an absorption rate of 92%. if your going to run a cyp or test e your looking at 68% absorption rate. so you need to run a higher dose of it to get equal to what you would out of prop

[GearHeaded]

Spoke to the guy, turns out he’s running a different ester and is injecting 100mg every few days, big misconception on my part.

100mg of Test prop every other day is about equal to 500mg of test cyp per week.. prop absorption is 92%, where cyp is 68% . so the dose of each of those calculates out to the mid low 300s

[Dannyboy51577]

Definitely suggest some serious reading so you can understand how ypur body is affected when u add aas and what to expect. I think you got the idea now- your natural test doesnt get added to what you are injecting- natural goes away and is replaced. If you re read cousins post #24- just want you be sure to understand that part so you can get yourseld the right dosages and not end up screwing yourself